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That didn't last long

Nope....

I’ve walked into a shit storm.

Speaking of the Sedins.

Aidan Celebrini was the first "young gun" up the Grind today.

But not the first Canuck.

The twins finished ahead of each and every prospect.

Celebrini, when asked if he finished first (listen to Chiclets latest episode and you will know why) responded...

..."yeah, well, except for the Sedins, they're not human....:

https://www.instagram.com/reel/C9DakuFS ... ltOWM5OA==

https://canucksarmy.com/news/sedins-fin ... ouse-grind

Aiden has some shoulders on him! And good for him for even keeping up.

Lots to work towards.

Wonder if the Sedins run with some of the current Canucks and if they would still lead that pack?

Macklin told the Chiclets his younger brother (RJ I think) is a sick player too.

His Dad played for the 86'ers and is an internationally renowned physio who worked with the GS Warriors so the kids hung out with Steph Curry and Draymond Green.

He also started up and is a partner in the Fortius Institute in Burmaby, a highly regarded private sports and health clinic.

Pretty mature kid.

Good interview.

Fucking Sharks.

donlever wrote: ↑Fri Jul 05, 2024 6:24 pm Macklin told the Chiclets his younger brother (RJ I think) is a sick player too.

His Dad played for the 86'ers and is an internationally renowned physio who worked with the GS Warriors so the kids hung out with Steph Curry and Draymond Green.

He also started up and is a partner in the Fortius Institute in Burmaby, a highly regarded private sports and health clinic.

Pretty mature kid.

Good interview.

Fucking Sharks.

Didn't he also work for the Canucks at some point?

donlever wrote: ↑Fri Jul 05, 2024 6:24 pm
Fucking Sharks.

Fucking every team that’s had a 1 OA.

Especially the last 2 ffs.

Just once you’d like to see something come our way!

Yes JPP he did.

And yes AP it would.

Perhaps Toppers post would be somewhat different had that ever occured.

donlever wrote: ↑Thu Jul 04, 2024 8:16 pm Where's the lawyer at?

I'd like to read his brief on the case....

All right. I've been busy celebrating how Americans dealt with colonialism.

But here's my brief on the topic.

Both sides are correct -- the Sedins haven't really done much at all and they haven't been asked to have real responsibility. They went from retirement and nothing to do with hockey for a bit, to hang around the office and see what you like, to go down to the rink whenever you want but especially with the kids, to *maybe* next year having more of a schedule of portfolio for such things, and I expect still, especially with the kids, because the big club isn't winging its coaching.

So to me, the interesting question is the one that's posed in the topic header, but varied: Just why are the Canucks employing the Sedins to do whatever they want regardless of the immediate impact on the team and the players?

There is a part of it that may be simply the identification of talent and wanting it part of any organization. These are the guys you hire because they are conscientious and gifted (and celebrities) -- you don't know what you want from them, but given that skill set, you want to keep them in fold because when they hit on something (and you think they will because they are successful at everything), you'll get value out of it.

But so far, no real value to date. Unsurprisingly, nothing "took" from the year shadowing and consulting in the office. And this is because these men are driven by competition and challenging themselves physically. A year of meetings without a portfolio didn't unlock a strong desire to be part of the business of the NHL (getting people in the seats) or the business of building a team (the GM side of the house). They've probably enjoyed the coach-without-portfolio role more because at least they skate a bit and mentor a bit. And what's the harm, from the team's perspective, from a little extra help that isn't challenging the coaching staff for its jobs.
'
And therein lies the rub. Unless the Sedins are "competing" against the coaching staff -- wanting a bigger role, with more authority -- they aren't going to be giving it their all. They will be one foot in and one foot out -- just an extra, non-threatening (to staff or players) doing little more than sharing wisdom and skill. Until there are multiple testimonials on how the Sedins unlocked things in players that would have been impossible without their knowledge, it's nothing more than a little extra help.

And maybe that is fine. Because there's always that minor value of "awe" when players get some time with hockey hall of famers, guys whose numbers hang from the rafters. And that's what the former superstar mascots within the organization always do at a minimum -- they maintain a continuity with the past, making the 1982 Canucks linked to the 1994 Canucks linked to the 2011 Canucks without players overlapping. Teams sell culture and history to their players -- to the best of the players, it is to be part of something they don't want to leave. But also when they do leave, to have positive stories to share with their new teammates who will be on the market someday. Smyl had (still has?) an office title, but really would he be in that job performing those functions but for the past as a player? The Canucks would have been fine with Linden as mascot, too, but Linden had other ideas -- which is fair enough -- but once your playing for something more, you survive or parish for direct organizational value. If you make waves, you have to have the organization ride them, and if they don't, you become a disruption and you lose. You play, you usually lose, but if you win a series of battles, you are eventually running NHL teams for real, whether that's as a President of Hockey Ops (not in name only), a GM, or a head coach.

I also think there's another value to the club of the "hire the rafters" approach. And that is to the players who may be in the rafters (or ring of honor) someday -- we have a future for you. In fact, it wouldn't surprise me if there was a conversation during that last year they played that went something like this: "Have you thought about what you wanted to do next year?" "We're not sure if we want to play." "Well, you always have a place here if you decide not to play." (thinks, they are telling us they don't really want us back). "Doing what?" "It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter when, and it doesn't matter what. But if you hang up your skates as a Canuck, you've always got a job while you figure out what to do." The leaves are pretty good at bringing in veterans at the close of their careers with the dangle of "job training" or a make-work job after. The Canucks have an owner willing to spend more than the cap -- and you can't -- but what you can do is find soft landing pads and increase the coaching staff and hockey ops staff -- internal assets to market the club to fans and players alike -- and maybe an occasional insight for the front office or developing player. And even if it is hard to calculate a direct return on investment, if having those jobs (or the prospects of those jobs) encourages a vet to join the team for a final hurrah or two, or encourages an existing player to not push for that extra contract that is going to end in either an overpayment or divorce, well, those are real benefits. Having a track record of keeping stars in the fold helps keep stars in the fold when they are still stars.

Aaronp18 wrote: ↑Fri Jul 05, 2024 6:52 pm

donlever wrote: ↑Fri Jul 05, 2024 6:24 pm
Fucking Sharks.

Fucking every team that’s had a 1 OA.

Especially the last 2 ffs.

Just once you’d like to see something come our way!

The Canucks are cursed that much we know, but they do throw us a bone every 20 years like Bure like the Sedins like Quinn Hughes but they ain’t what I call the all time greats of the game. The Canucks aren’t allowed to get those.

UWSaint wrote: ↑Fri Jul 05, 2024 9:01 pm All right. I've been busy celebrating how Americans dealt with colonialism.

Happy belated 4th, although in some cases perhaps not actually late as I understand the celebration becomes a 4 day haze for some citizens.

UWSaint wrote: ↑Fri Jul 05, 2024 9:01 pm
Both sides are correct

The both sides comment, your prelude summarization if you will, leads me to not remark in relation to the statement itself but to rather segue to this....

....it has struck me over the years that "Canuck fans" (such a generalization but for purposes of declaration I will use it) are inordinately (unduly?) sensitive with respect to (some of) their past "stars".

This is certainly the case with Smyl and Nalsund, definetly 100% the case with Linden and it strikes me that the Sedins have and will fall(en) into the Trevor category.

This perhaps creates a jaundiced or distorted retort from some responders when discussing the players in question....this is not a judgement, accusation or criticism as the phenomenon could easily emanate from the unconcious or subconscious which is a daily reality for us all (in Freudian terms).

Or be eminently untrue I suppose.

Perhaps a topic for future consideration, the fawning of average (Looouuuuuu/Gino Gino/Haaaarrrooolld) that Canuck fans have been known to be susceptible to over the years.

There is a physiological, psychological, perhaps quantum phenomenal discussion there I do believe.

UWSaint wrote: ↑Fri Jul 05, 2024 9:01 pm UW's opening arguments....

As far as the balance of your (as always) well penned dissertation goes:

THE WHY HIRE THEM COMMENT

....we oft discuss ownership meddling with this team. While not possessive of concrete evidence I have concluded on a personal level that it is not only (at least) conspicuously factual but also (potentially) pervasive.

In "street term" dialect it feels like "Dude can't help himself" and has to be involved.

This feels like (possiby) a FA initiated or influenced directive....Stan didn't work, Linden didn't work, but we need to maintain a conduit of tradition and familiarity so we do not fail, maybe these guys!!!!

Plus they run up the Grind real fast so maybe that will rub off.

(Kidding....)

EVALUATING TALENT

Not sure about this one.

Not being flippant but because they're Swedes doesn't mean they're Thomas Gradin.

What is on their resumes that makes them legit talent evaluators like, say, Ron Delorme (sic)?

Assessing a (large) group of potentially impact players and having the knack to assess whether what they have (skill, shot, skating, size, physicality) will translate to the next level, or even as organizational depth, is a serious challenge and one not easily undertaken nor perfected.

ON ICE COACHING

This is an interesting one and perhaps deserved of further conversation.

While quality, high end players could (should?) be able to teach/train is what the twins had/have so unique that it is mostly central to them and not a promotional or learned talent?

Counter intuitive, counter productive?

NOTHING MORE THAN A LITTLE EXTRA HELP/RAFTER GUYS

Right, see comment 1, the FA keep them around initiative.

Also, it seems odd to me that the twins, who challenge themselves in every aspect of their lives, are or would be satisfied with what seems to be a relatively minimalist role in terms of actual ROI, especially if there is truth to the OP's statements (Horvat leadership or lack thereof as a result of Sedin influence/mentorship).

Let's step back to Freud, do they harbour repressive discontent at their inability to "lead" the team to a Cup win resulting in an insentient, perhaps irrational need to "be a part of it happening" that they accept a minimalistic, non-integral role in order to close that life door?

Look, I like and admire the Sedins for many things, a lot of them outside hockey.

They are (apparently) solid family men, take care of themselves physically in a fashion all humans should mirror, are generous (Children's Hospital donations), humble (not wanting the former broadcasted), respectful...I could go on.

But as to (as was the intent of the OP remarks) whether they provide long term benefit, residual or otherwise, in their current roles the pudding has not yet provided proof.

Whether it is because they are tethered or incapable is a query we, imho, are able to provide a base line conjecture to but not really a defined, finite acknowledgement.

Likely I waxed poetic beyond the interest of most but ultimately, UW, I believe your efforts here are entitled to a better variety of responses than has traditionally occured...hopefully some of your discussion points have been touched upon, certainly not all but I seem to be developing "arthritis thumb" from phone communication in both personal and business life and long winded written diatribes can be a struggle.

I still owe you a DeBrusk post which is my intent to follow up on.

It is a long off season.....

Three years of wandering through the organization for on the job training for a role of their choice. An odd sweetheart deal akin to ex Canadian Prime Ministers moving back to be senior partners in legal firms. Looks great on the cocktail circuit and bid sheets, but what is the effects on the day to day ops?

I recently had a position, hired by head office to work with training the youth while also shaking up the senior field staff's odd MO. None of this was communicated to the field staff. I wander through the ops trying not to step on toes. It was a no win ugly turf war role. That would be what the Sedins were in if they were not given a clear mandate. That mandate for the Sedins is slowly narrowing but is still very broad.

Two things lead me to the OP, I mentioned the Bieksa locker room speech and interviews he did subsequently and those reflected on Bo's leadership and where Bo learned his NHL leadership. The other impetus were the media stories during last seasons boom times regarding the collection of Vancouver coaches and their allstar player credentials. Rickey, Gonchar, Foote ... and the Sedins. We have all seen the work of Gonchar and Foote with Jules and Meyers especially, and while I have disagreed with some of Ricky's moves/tactics, he has had success.

Team fitness was an issue that Rickey, RoboSwede, Quinn, Hronek all admitted it. Which coaches have unhuman fitness levels?

I, like Donny, have a difficult time seeing the Sedin's, given their competitive nature taking a figurehead role. I can agree with, as some in this thread have pointed out, their role needs to be better defined. That would focus their efforts and give measurable results to their efforts.

Somethings UW mentioned, the nudge nudge wink wink discussions to vet FAs that may see a later role in head office for coming to town, this was addressed in the lead up to Free Agency this year. The issue came up regarding Tanev rumoured to take a very long term (final years on LTIR and bumped to head office later) deal to maximize overall dollars while reducing annual cap hit. An article I read reported the league had responded by saying they would be taking a close look at those later years as they play out and reiterated that promises of later office jobs was prohibited. The LTIR is policed with doctors reports, I'm not naive enough to think the nudge nudge wink wink have a look at this corner office discussions don't take place. This occurs with long term players, mainly career guys, Sedin or returning Linden prodigal sons, not as an enticement to lure FAs.