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damonberryman wrote:Consider where the additional chemicals we put into the ecosystem actually go.

Conservation of mass. Are you suggesting humans are creating matter?

damonberryman wrote:The oceans and lakes are dying of acidification. "Acid rain'? WTF?

A natural phenomena throughout time.

damonberryman wrote:The uncovering of hidden interests who are protecting money takes time

Like those funding the David Suzuki Foundation

damonberryman wrote:It should not take a group of dead drowned Polar Bears washing up to convince us the ice is melting.

A doomed species to begin with.

damonberryman wrote:As to the idea all these climate shifts have happened before...sure they really have, but the time they occurred in was measured in centuries and millennia and not in years.

The defination of weather patterns vs climate change?

damonberryman wrote:Global warming is true by the definition of global temperatures rising. They have. Fact.

Over an insignificant time period. Come back when you have a pattern.

damonberryman wrote:The ocean is losing its ability to sustain coral and other important parts of its ecosystem. Fact.

The Rockies, and the Alps are made comprised of fosilliferous coral bearing limestones deposited in tropical waters

damonberryman wrote:I spent a number of years in the geophysical exploration business

A wire puller.

damonberryman wrote:they are not protecting great wealth as are groups like the fossil fuel industry who sponsor climate deniers.

They are busy protecting their own self interests and money.

damonberryman wrote:All you have to do to disprove the flat theory is watch a ship appear over the horizon as it climbs the curve.

Tell me how space warps in time.

griz wrote:Global warming and climate change is a hoax.

Global warming is a fact. Apart from all the data that prove it, I can notice the difference over my lifetime.
I can now grow grapes in my garden. Really blows my mind! Global warming ftw!

What can be debated is what it is that is causing it.

As Topper points out, there are natural variations. Some point to solar activity, the inclination of the poles, etc.
This is true. The world has been much hotter as well as much cooler at different times in the past. You could grow grapes in Sweden during the bronze age, for example. I'm not worried about the world.

It was much hotter when the dinosaurs roamed the earth, and dinosaurs would not be able to live in the climate we have today. Well, except for the tiny little ones that are still around, and we now call birds.
We could probably survive in their climate, but it'd be tougher. Super hot and humid.

Anyway, most scientists see a link between the industrial revolution, the use of fossil fuels and the current warming of the earth, but it's only like 99% of them, so there is still some dissent from those who think it could all be part of a natural cycle.

Anyway, A hoax? So you think some 99% of scientists and at least 90% of governments around the earth, whether left wing or right wing, have all some how ganged up to conspire to somehow screw the US?

Wow! Outside of the US it's more or less concensus, but Big Oil and Coal in the US are doing there best to avoid legislation that might lower their profits. I'm sure they're happy for your support.

griz wrote: could you please demonstrate to me how I am mis/dis-informed?

Well, for starters, you seem to be getting your facts from infowars.com, a site run by known conspiracy theorist Alex Jones.

Does this man seem sane to you?

Topper wrote:...and the computer system will be built by Delta Airlines......

Topper wrote:

damonberryman wrote:Consider where the additional chemicals we put into the ecosystem actually go.

Conservation of mass. Are you suggesting humans are creating matter?

damonberryman wrote:The oceans and lakes are dying of acidification. "Acid rain'? WTF?

A natural phenomena throughout time.

damonberryman wrote:The uncovering of hidden interests who are protecting money takes time

Like those funding the David Suzuki Foundation

damonberryman wrote:It should not take a group of dead drowned Polar Bears washing up to convince us the ice is melting.

A doomed species to begin with.

damonberryman wrote:As to the idea all these climate shifts have happened before...sure they really have, but the time they occurred in was measured in centuries and millennia and not in years.

The defination of weather patterns vs climate change?

damonberryman wrote:Global warming is true by the definition of global temperatures rising. They have. Fact.

Over an insignificant time period. Come back when you have a pattern.

damonberryman wrote:The ocean is losing its ability to sustain coral and other important parts of its ecosystem. Fact.

The Rockies, and the Alps are made comprised of fosilliferous coral bearing limestones deposited in tropical waters

damonberryman wrote:I spent a number of years in the geophysical exploration business

A wire puller.

damonberryman wrote:they are not protecting great wealth as are groups like the fossil fuel industry who sponsor climate deniers.

They are busy protecting their own self interests and money.

damonberryman wrote:All you have to do to disprove the flat theory is watch a ship appear over the horizon as it climbs the curve.

First off I ran teams in Canada, U.S., Oman, Yemen and Saudi. That dals with your propensity to bring down the level of discourse. Something you do on a regular basis but not as much as Doc.
Tell me how space warps in time.

You are comparing the suzuki foundation to big oil and coal? Really?

Everything else you write is simply a facade for either your ignorance or your emotional investment in being right rather than the facts. Sure the oceans have had all this before. Sure the climate has changed before. Humans are not creating matter. They are poisoning it. The previous environmental events you talk about happened over centuries. Dig up one period in recorded history where this much change has happened world wide and you win.

BTW. Why don't you tell us how space warps time as if this has anything to do with the subject matter being discussed. (you better mention black holes while at it. You are probably an expert on holes of all kinds)

I think the global warming argument is interesting and was started through the political debate and that's cool.
I do think the "heavier" emissions, coal, diesel, jet fuel, etc. are effecting our weather patterns to some degree.
Not cars so much.
My thing was I would like to see countries play on a level playing field. China does not do that, they basically answer to no one. This becomes political because in essence, IMO, gives them an unfair advantage in regards to trade.
Climate change is and will always be happening with or without us!
I'm sure it varies in time frame and in magnitude.
We are just beginning to "scrape the ice" in our knowledge about our planet.
Of coarse there are other things that could happen, not including the dreaded asteroid.
A natural virus.
A super volcano.
War, (doubt that one).
Oh ya, and my favorite.....In 1856, we had a moderate solar event, (flair). A little electro magnetic juice.
Didn't really hurt much, not even the birds, who depend on electro magnetic impulse to migrate.
Did kind of screw up the telegraph lines and a few guys that were working on them at the time.
Rumor has it, and I do believe this one, that if that same magnitude solar event happened today, live as we know it is over. DUN, DUN, DUN...
Go figure; The best long term survival rate would most likely be the folks still living in huts without electricity, computers and CELL PHONES!
Anybody heard who's leading in the polls today?

damonberryman wrote:You are comparing the suzuki foundation to big oil and coal? Really?

You can add in every other large eco weenie doom and gloomer group.

damonberryman wrote:Everything else you write is simply a facade for either your ignorance or your emotional investment in being right rather than the facts.

A facade but then you admit they were real events.....lol

damonberryman wrote:Sure the oceans have had all this before. Sure the climate has changed before.

damonberryman wrote:Humans are not creating matter.

Then why did you suggest they are?

damonberryman wrote:Dig up one period in recorded history where this much change has happened world wide and you win.

Huaynaputina, Mount Pinatubo, Mt. Thera, The Yellowstone Caldera, The Long Valley Caldera, Valles Caldera, Lake Toba, Taupo Caldera, Sudbury Astrobleme, Vredefort crater

Do you need more?

damonberryman wrote:you better mentioon't n black holes while at it. You are probably an expert on holes of all kinds)

I did live in Jamaica for several years.

Fred - what about 1989 and the Quebec blackout? 1967 Cold War incident?

Seems like 2016 will be the warmest year on record.
http://www.livescience.com/55456-record ... video.html

More facts on climate change. Do you trust NASA?
http://climate.nasa.gov/evidence/

Oh, and sorry. I exaggerated before. It's not 99% of climate scientist that agree that global warming is happening and most likely is man made. It's a mere 97%.

Oh, and about the ozone hole; it's definitely man made and has been growing since the 1970's, but CFCs are now banned in almost all countries, and I think it was only last year that they announced that for the first time it seems it has shrink!
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/2016 ... gerprints/

Proof that even if you start late, global action really can have some effect.

Per wrote:Seems like 2016 will be the warmest year on record.
http://www.livescience.com/55456-record ... video.html

As I have said "recorded". You are looking at a very small sample size of geological time.

Per wrote:More facts on climate change. Do you trust NASA?
http://climate.nasa.gov/evidence/

Once again, 400,000 years? The limits of their ice core data on CO2. The data window is laughably small. that is somewhere around 0.0087% of earth's history. Even the K/T mas extinction took several million years to occur from a far more drastic event than the industrial revolution.

Species flourish and diversify then enter a period of stasis (where humans are now)...then become extinct.

Per wrote:Global warming is a fact... What can be debated is what it is that is causing it.

I accept that global warming occurs. I also accept that pollution is real and should be managed better. But neither of these are what I am trying to discuss which is the political tool that is global warming aka climate change and how the facts are presented in deceitful ways to suit political agendas.

Per wrote:Anyway, most scientists see a link between the industrial revolution, the use of fossil fuels and the current warming of the earth, but it's only like 99% of them, so there is still some dissent from those who think it could all be part of a natural cycle.

Anyway, A hoax? So you think some 99% of scientists and at least 90% of governments around the earth, whether left wing or right wing, have all some how ganged up to conspire to somehow screw the US?

The fact that there is consensus doesn't make anything true. However, when you look deeper you find that there is only a 0.3% consensus among scientists that humans are responsible for at least 50% of global warming.

Stefan Molyneux : The 97% Consensus? Global Warming Unmasked!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yTTaXqVEGkU

Stefan Molyneux : Climate Change in 12 Minutes - The Skeptic's Case
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0gDErDwXqhc

Professor Bob Carter : The Faux "97% Consensus"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5NinRn5faU4

Per wrote:Well, for starters, you seem to be getting your facts from infowars.com, a site run by known conspiracy theorist Alex Jones.

So infowars is less accurate than the mainstream media? I think Infowars has a pretty decent track record despite being attacked constantly by the establishment. I don't agree with everything anyone says. But Per why attack the messenger anyways? It's the message that is important.

I like how G. Edward Griffin tackles those who attack the concept of Conspiracies. At about 16:06 minutes into this informative video : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_33i0E1ftNE

"The word conspiracy causes a lot of people heartburn doesn't it? Because people have been conditioned to laugh at the word conspiracy. Any time somebody thinks that there are secrets being withheld by the government or that the government is not being forthright in telling us what really happened in this event or the other, we get a lot of commenters, editorialists who tell us 'ah you're just a conspiracy theorist' and that is supposed to close off the debate. Because who wants to be a conspiracy theorist? Makes you sound like you're mentally feeble or something like that.

Well actually, it's the other way around as far as mental feebleness is concerned because people who laugh at conspiracies, I kind of feel sorry for them ... they're never read a history book. Because anybody who knows anything about history realises that from the very dawn of history world events have been shaped to a very large extent by conspiracies of one kind or another. And it's just been going on throughout the centuries and there's no reason to believe it's stopped all of a sudden..."

micky107 wrote:My thing was I would like to see countries play on a level playing field. China does not do that, they basically answer to no one. This becomes political because in essence, IMO, gives them an unfair advantage in regards to trade.

What a mess! The incentive is for them to disregard the environment.

Topper wrote:

Per wrote:Seems like 2016 will be the warmest year on record.
http://www.livescience.com/55456-record ... video.html

As I have said "recorded". You are looking at a very small sample size of geological time.

Per wrote:More facts on climate change. Do you trust NASA?
http://climate.nasa.gov/evidence/

Once again, 400,000 years? The limits of their ice core data on CO2. The data window is laughably small. that is somewhere around 0.0087% of earth's history. Even the K/T mas extinction took several million years to occur from a far more drastic event than the industrial revolution.

Species flourish and diversify then enter a period of stasis (where humans are now)...then become extinct.

I agree to what you say. As I stated earlier, we know it has been much hotter as well as much cooler in the history of earth. It was way hotter back when the dinosaurs were masters of this planet. But modern humans, homo sapiens, have only been around for 200,000 years, so when we talk of the climate of the past 400,000 years, that more than well covers anything any human has ever seen.

I'm not worried about the planet. Heck, I'm not even worried about the human race, with the technology we have, I doubt we will be exterminated in the near future. It is however quite possible that the global warming we are experiencing, and which almost certainly to a substantial part is caused by us digging up carbon and releasing it in the atmosphere, will render large parts of the planet unfit for humans. In part because of rising sea levels, in part because of desertification.

I'm not worried about Scandinavia (well, maybe Denmark, it's pretty flat and could easily be swallowed by the sea) or Canada. In fact, we may even stand to gain from this. Sure, Canadian forest fires may increase, but arable land may increase as the colder parts start to warm up. Farmers in southern Sweden have already started to be able to get a third crop per season instead of the traditional two.

But places like Florida, Bangladesh, the Netherlands and the Maldives may find themselves in deep shit, and farming may become near impossible in countries near the equator.

There are some that think that the current turmoil in Iraq/Syria at least in part is due to climate change. They had several drought years in Syria before the protests against the Assad regime started. Without the drought, maybe there would have been less frustrated people taking to the streets? Without street protests - no brutal crackdown. Without the brutal crackdown - no civil war. Without the civil war - no opportunity for ISIS to expand their operations from inside Iraq.

With that in mind, it is quite possible that an increased desertification will lead to an increase in unrest and armed conflicts around the world.

That's what I worry about.

Btw, this is hilarious:

Donald Trump Calls Climate Change a Hoax, but Worries It Could Hurt His Golf Course!
http://time.com/4345367/donald-trump-cl ... lf-course/

From the man who claims he just tells it like it is...

Topper wrote:Fred - what about 1989 and the Quebec blackout? 1967 Cold War incident?

I'm not Fred but you can call me that if you want. I read way back to "The Early Years" and Fred seemed to be a really good guy!
You know, I remember 1967. I was 9 years old and scared to death. I honestly was waiting for the air raid sirens.
I heard that the only 2 countries that didn't pick sides were Canada and Holland and I thought this was it but maybe we might be spared.
I was a little kid in the early 60s, really into science and watched way too much T.V.
The fear seemed so real in those days...

damonberryman wrote:http://www.msnbc.com/morning-joe/watch/ ... 3136323872

This is going to be the future. A leisure class. i will be dead by the time it fully comes into effect and Doc will be servicing men in a park located in the East End...

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This post is going to draw the usual sexual innuendo from childish men.

Are you for real Prison Bitch?!!