The Official Dave Ayres CC "All Thing Leaves" thread

[BigTuna]

Winnipeg and Buffalo have less cap money going forward than the leaves.

Wrong.

Buffalo:
2017-18: $50,612,858

Winnipeg:
2017-18: $54,941,666

Toronto:
2017-18:$55,795,834

Thanks for proving me right!

But you forgot to add on the $5M Leaves rookie bonus money.

Also forgot that is the total for only 17 Leaves players (19 players in the case of the Jets for eg)

Too many variables at this point to talk about the 2018-19 season... you schmuck!

Oh of course because you want as little money as possible in that year. It is more important than this or next year. But of course you'll ignore that. That Okposo deal will look real bad. The rookie bonuses are gone by 2018-19 and you keep bringing it up.

[Strangelove]

The rookie bonuses are gone by 2018-19

Wrong.

As for the rest of your post:

[BigTuna]

The rookie bonuses are gone by 2018-19

Wrong.

As for the rest of your post:

Anything to ignore the fact the leaves have the best rookie class any team has had in 20+ years.

Let's ignore the most important year in which the leaves have less money committed than Winnipeg or BUffalo. Sure. This year does not even matter. And the rookie bonuses won't matter in 2 years either.
I love how you're always trying to spin having all these good rookies is such a negative. What GM wouldn't want this situation? Benning sure would.

[Strangelove]

All you have are your three young forwards, exciting for you, but should've built from the net out, you'll see.

[Topper]

Mr. Anderson took the blue pill.

[BigTuna]

The rookie bonuses are gone by 2018-19

Wrong.

As for the rest of your post:

Wrong.

[BigTuna]

All you have are your three young forwards, exciting for you, but should've built from the net out, you'll see.

Andersen has top 10 stats.
And Rielly is one of the best young D in the entire NHL.

And how the recent cup winners BTW have not built from the net out.

[Meds]

All you have are your three young forwards, exciting for you, but should've built from the net out, you'll see.

Andersen has top 10 stats.
And Rielly is one of the best young D in the entire NHL.

And how the recent cup winners BTW have not built from the net out.

I hate to side with Tuna, but I had already thought of that. Only the Kings could be considered to have built from the net out. They drafted Kopitar and Quick in 2005, then Doughty in 2008. Kopitar and Quick both came into their own in 2009-10 and continued on an upward trajectory. Doughty started to shine the following season.

Chicago, Pittsburgh, Detroit, and Anaheim are the other cup winners over the last 10 years, and none of them were built from the net out.

Chicago: Toews, Kane, Keith, Seabrook, Hossa.....then Niemi or Crawford, neither of whom are building block goalies.

Pittsburgh: Crosby, Malkin, Letang (support).....Fleury or Martin, again neither of whom are building blocks.

Detroit: Strong team from top to bottom. Won with Hasek one year, but plenty with Osgood and other lessers.

Anaheim: Strong team anchored by Pronger and Niedermayer. Giguere and Bryzgalov are not even close to cornerstones you build out from.

The mantra that you build a cup winner from the net out doesn't bear out over time, especially since the salary cap. But go back to 1987 and you have 10 or 11 teams that had a goaltender that you could build around. I would say that only New Jersey was actually built from the net out.

[Blob Mckenzie]

Any Canucks fan with our garbage team and at best mid pack prospect pool shouldn't be throwing rocks.

And I hate the leaves.

Thanks Elmer !!

[BigTuna]

All you have are your three young forwards, exciting for you, but should've built from the net out, you'll see.

Andersen has top 10 stats.
And Rielly is one of the best young D in the entire NHL.

And how the recent cup winners BTW have not built from the net out.

I hate to side with Tuna, but I had already thought of that. Only the Kings could be considered to have built from the net out. They drafted Kopitar and Quick in 2005, then Doughty in 2008. Kopitar and Quick both came into their own in 2009-10 and continued on an upward trajectory. Doughty started to shine the following season.

Chicago, Pittsburgh, Detroit, and Anaheim are the other cup winners over the last 10 years, and none of them were built from the net out.

Chicago: Toews, Kane, Keith, Seabrook, Hossa.....then Niemi or Crawford, neither of whom are building block goalies.

Pittsburgh: Crosby, Malkin, Letang (support).....Fleury or Martin, again neither of whom are building blocks.

Detroit: Strong team from top to bottom. Won with Hasek one year, but plenty with Osgood and other lessers.

Anaheim: Strong team anchored by Pronger and Niedermayer. Giguere and Bryzgalov are not even close to cornerstones you build out from.

The mantra that you build a cup winner from the net out doesn't bear out over time, especially since the salary cap. But go back to 1987 and you have 10 or 11 teams that had a goaltender that you could build around. I would say that only New Jersey was actually built from the net out.

Doc is outdated in his beliefs. Even constantly overvaluing "Big" players over small ones. (That's why he thought Marner would be a huge bust).
You don't need an elite goalie to win a cup. The best ones have never won a cup.(1 final for Lundqvist, no finals for Price, Dubnyk, ETC.)
There are so many very good goalies available, you can get one for relatively cheap. Just like the leaves, Sharks, and Oilers have done. Yes even the Oilers got a good starter who was a backup for cheap. So why exactly do you have to build from the net out? I'm not seeing that anymore. Goalies are the hardest to draft/develop. You can't just pick one in the top 5 and expect success like in any other position. So the best way is get one who is proven on another team.

[BigTuna]

BTW just to add to the "leaves only have 3 forwards" nonsense: With Bozak's 50th point, the leaves have 6 different 50+ point players. No other NHL team has even 5. leaves have fantastic depth.
And this goes back to Doc's comment about guys like Brown and Hyman not being very good. If you can get cheap production in your lineup, it IS a big deal.
Connor Brown will score 20 goals and is their 5th best rookie. Think about that for a moment. Majority of teams he's the best rookie.
But by all means let's kiss the asses of Buffalo and Winnipeg for their amazing futures.

[ukcanuck]

Did the leaves make the playoffs yet?

For the life of me, who gives a fuck?

Why on canuckscorner is there even thread about the leaves


Fuck the leaves

Fuck Ontario

And how about a fuck you quebec too

[Strangelove]

I hate to side with Tuna, but I had already thought of that. Only the Kings could be considered to have built from the net out. They drafted Kopitar and Quick in 2005, then Doughty in 2008. Kopitar and Quick both came into their own in 2009-10 and continued on an upward trajectory. Doughty started to shine the following season.

Chicago, Pittsburgh, Detroit, and Anaheim are the other cup winners over the last 10 years, and none of them were built from the net out.

Chicago: Toews, Kane, Keith, Seabrook, Hossa.....then Niemi or Crawford, neither of whom are building block goalies.

Pittsburgh: Crosby, Malkin, Letang (support).....Fleury or Martin, again neither of whom are building blocks.

Detroit: Strong team from top to bottom. Won with Hasek one year, but plenty with Osgood and other lessers.

Anaheim: Strong team anchored by Pronger and Niedermayer. Giguere and Bryzgalov are not even close to cornerstones you build out from.

Recall that pic I created where I placed you in the Leaves lifeboat.

The phrase "from the net out" strongly incorporates defensemen.

(you've either gotta have a monster - or two - on dee or a monster in net)

All of those teams you mention had 26-28-minute monsters on dee.

Letang as "support" lol he's a TOP defenseman in the NHL!

Oh and you forgot to mention a fellow who goes by the name of Lidstrom in Detroit.

Point is that the Leaves don't have a single monster on dee or in net.

They don't have a single dee who belongs on a top-pairing, a goalie is known for collapsing under pressure.

It is not possible for them to fix these problems moving forward...

[Strangelove]

BTW just to add to the "Leaves only have 3 forwards" nonsense: With Bozak's 50th point, the Leaves have 6 different 50+ point players. No other NHL team has even 5. Leaves have fantastic depth.

What people in this thread have said is "Leaves only have 3 YOUNG forwards"

... as in the rebuild, which YOU say is completed!

As mentioned before, Bozo + JVR are UFAs is one year and Kadri won't ever repeat this "career year".

Enjoy it while you can because this team will never win anything....

[Meds]

I hate to side with Tuna, but I had already thought of that. Only the Kings could be considered to have built from the net out. They drafted Kopitar and Quick in 2005, then Doughty in 2008. Kopitar and Quick both came into their own in 2009-10 and continued on an upward trajectory. Doughty started to shine the following season.

Chicago, Pittsburgh, Detroit, and Anaheim are the other cup winners over the last 10 years, and none of them were built from the net out.

Chicago: Toews, Kane, Keith, Seabrook, Hossa.....then Niemi or Crawford, neither of whom are building block goalies.

Pittsburgh: Crosby, Malkin, Letang (support).....Fleury or Martin, again neither of whom are building blocks.

Detroit: Strong team from top to bottom. Won with Hasek one year, but plenty with Osgood and other lessers.

Anaheim: Strong team anchored by Pronger and Niedermayer. Giguere and Bryzgalov are not even close to cornerstones you build out from.

Recall that pic I created where I placed you in the Leaves lifeboat.

The phrase "from the net out" strongly incorporates defensemen.

(you've either gotta have a monster - or two - on dee or a monster in net)

All of those teams you mention had 26-28-minute monsters on dee.

Ok, right you are. Move the goal posts wherever you want dude. So long as it suits you. But truth is, you said build from the net out. In other words, start at the net and move out. Also implies that the goaltender is elite. The teams I listed didn't do that.

Letang as "support" lol he's TOP defenseman in the NHL!

I meant: Crosby, Malkin, Letang and (support). I didn't write it that way though.....but if you can mean something more than the face value of what you typed, then so can I.

Oh and you forgot to mention a fellow who goes by the name of Lidstrom in Detroit.

No I didn't forget to mention him at all. If you start in net and move out the defenseman is secondary to the goalie. And if "from the net out" implies a stud or two on defense, then "strong team from top to bottom" would include Lidstrom.

Point is that the Leaves don't have a single monster on dee or in net.

They don't have a single dee who belongs on a top-pairing, a goalie is known for collapsing under pressure.

The numbers would certainly support that. And I don't think I once said anything about Toronto having good goaltending or defense in place. In fact I think it was a terrible move to pay that price for Andersen and then sign him to a contract like that. He was hit and miss behind Anaheim's defensively strong team.

My only point was that the argument that you have to build from the net out, which, as it is worded, implies you get your goaltender first as your anchor, and that he is one of your teams indispensable core pieces, then build from there, is not supported by the majority of Cup winners over the last 30 years. Do you need to get amazing goaltending in the playoffs? Almost certainly, with few exceptions that is always the case. Has the goaltender on the Cup winning team been of the ilk and caliber of Roy, Brodeur, Quick, Lundqvist, Hasek, or Price? No. I would not put Crawford, Fleury, Murray, Khabibulin, Ward, Giguere, Osgood, Howard, Thomas, Barasso, or even Ranford or Vernon, in a list with those aforementioned fellows. In the years they won, sure they were amazing, but they aren't guys you look at and say you would build your team starting with them. The number of Cup winning goaltenders who were less than consistent year in and out, and very often lost their jobs or were traded a few years post parade is not the short list when you stack it up to the absolute anchors that you can build a team from.

It is not possible for them to fix these problems moving forward...

I wouldn't say it's impossible, but it won't be even remotely easy.....especially with Horton's contract on the books, and the retained salary from Kessel for a few more seasons. The leaves very much need Gardiner and Reilly to develop and turn into those stud blueliners for them. But it probably won't happen, because for young defensemen to go from career top-4 level, to top-2 studs means playing in front of a goalie that bails them out and lets them take that step (I'm of course implying that the defensemen in question is not a projected top-2 to begin with). Andersen ain't that guy.