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Thanks, dbm. Nice to have you here too. I quite enjoy reading your posts!damonberryman wrote:+Nice too have you here Per. You manage to make the points I want to make without the homocidal underlying flavour. You go Per. Just do not expect to change minds with intelligent arguments. I live in the States and am afraid for my kids and grandkids.
So if I'm reading you correctly, what you're saying is...damonberryman wrote: +Nice too have you here Per. You manage to make the points I want to make without the homocidal underlying flavour.
... because they're gonna have the reincarnation of Hitler for a president?damonberryman wrote: Just do not expect to change minds with intelligent arguments. I live in the States and am afraid for my kids and grandkids
I don't even want to know how you found out Per wears a hairpiece and drives a Porsche...damonberryman wrote: BTW. I do not mind the hair piece. A guy has to do what he has to do. Fortunately I have a full head of hair but no Porsche. See a lot of balding men my age driving around in expensive cars and I toodle along in my cheap paid for ride WITH a full head of hair
Well isn't that special.Per wrote: Thanks, dbm. Nice to have you here too. I quite enjoy your posts!
The truth is the truth.Per wrote:I see you are buying the Putin narrative hook, line and sinker.Strangelove wrote:Here in the West we call Putin’s enemies in Chechnya: “terrorists”.Per wrote: Putin has violently subdued uprisings in eg Chechenya.
Those who attack civilians = “terrorists”.
Correction: He has supported separatists in Georgia and Crimea.Per wrote: He has invaded parts of Georgia and the Ukraine, and even annected the Crimea peninsula, which is part of Ukraine, to Russia.
Separatists who wanted to rejoin Russia.
You do realize Georgia and Crimea were Russian states for hundreds of years until recently right?
Well now, I’d say that’s mighty magnanimous of him!Per wrote: To facilitate future interventions "to defend Russian minorities" he has offered any citizen of any country that used to be part of the Soviet Union or the Russian Empire the right to Russian citizenship. That includes all Finns.
Many folk (including most Crimeans) never saw themselves as part of the Ukraine.Per wrote: And at the same time he states that Putin will never invade the Ukraine. Newsflash! He already did!
It’s okay if you want to consider Crimea as part of the Ukraine (only 13 years total though!)
... but yeah, many of us see Crimea as belonging to Russia for 220 years... and counting.
Sure the Chechens are separatists.Per wrote: Now, the Chechens, if any, deserve the label separatists. They have fought for independence since the 1780's, but to little avail. They don't see themselves as Russians.
That's all you've got?Per wrote: As for attacking civilians... Who was really responsible for the apartment bombings of 1999?
In one building some of the tennants discovered people placing explosives there and managed to prevent that building from being blown up. Those people spoke with Russian accents, and the explosives were of the typical KGB/FSB kind, according to a policeman who investigated the scene and then was fired and imprisoned on drugs and bribe taking charges.
https://postsovietpost.stanford.edu/dis ... ngs-russia
More conspiracies, if Russia had done anything wrong surely the mighty NATO would've smacked her down.Per wrote: The "separatists" in Ukraine oddly enough have access to Russian tanks and artillery, and Russian soldiers keep coming home in body bags despite not officially being on the scene.... It's all very strange.
People have a right to their opinions.Per wrote: Besides, you may consider Crimea part of Russia, but the UN, the EU, the USA and Canada do not*
... and the Ukraine was part of Russia for 37 of those years.Per wrote: , it has been part of Ukraine since 1954
If Russia had done anything wrong surely the mighty NATO would've smacked her down.Per wrote: Furthermore, since WW2 the international community has considered it illegal to change borders by force.
Aaaah... You've missed me...Strangelove wrote: But then I thought... What the hell.
The True Champions of Truth (or "truthiness"):Strangelove wrote:The truth is the truth.Per wrote: I see you are buying the Putin narrative hook, line and sinker.
Well, the key Word here is "violently" as in indiscriminate shelling of civilian areas. Basically bombing Chechenya back to the stone age. Not to mention the systematic use of torture and assassinations.Strangelove wrote:Sure the Chechens are separatists.
But you said "Putin has violently subdued uprisings in Chechenya"... as if he were some kind of monster.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Chechen_WarAmerican Secretary of State Madeleine Albright noted in her 24 March 2000, speech to the United Nations Commission on Human Rights:
We cannot ignore the fact that thousands of Chechen civilians have died and more than 200,000 have been driven from their homes. Together with other delegations, we have expressed our alarm at the persistent, credible reports of human rights violations by Russian forces in Chechnya, including extrajudicial killings. There are also reports that Chechen separatists have committed abuses, including the killing of civilians and prisoners.... The war in Chechnya has greatly damaged Russia's international standing and is isolating Russia from the international community. Russia's work to repair that damage, both at home and abroad, or its choice to risk further isolating itself, is the most immediate and momentous challenge that Russia faces.
According to the 2001 annual report by Amnesty International:
There were frequent reports that Russian forces indiscriminately bombed and shelled civilian areas. Chechen civilians, including medical personnel, continued to be the target of military attacks by Russian forces. Hundreds of Chechen civilians and prisoners of war were extra judicially executed. Journalists and independent monitors continued to be refused access to Chechnya. ---
In 2001 the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum has placed Chechnya on its Genocide Watch List:
Chechnya was devastated, including the almost complete destruction of Grozny, the Chechen capital. Russian artillery and air indiscriminately pounded populated areas. Human rights organizations also documented several massacres of civilians by Russian units. Russian President Vladimir Putin proclaimed Chechnya pacified by Spring 2000. But peace has been elusive for Chechen civilians, victims of a continuing war of attrition. They are plagued by abuses committed by Russian forces – arbitrary arrest, extortion, torture, murder. Chechen civilians also suffer because there have been no sustained efforts to rebuild basic social services, such as public utilities or education. Chechen fighters also commit abuses against civilians, but neither on the same scale nor with the same intensity as Russian forces.
The Russian government failed to pursue any accountability process for human rights abuses committed during the course of the conflict in Chechnya. Unable to secure justice domestically, hundreds of victims of abuse have filed applications with the European Court of Human Rights (ECHR). In March 2005 the court issued the first rulings on Chechnya, finding the Russian government guilty of violating the right to life and even the prohibition of torture with respect to civilians who had died or forcibly disappeared at the hands of Russia's federal troops. Many similar claims were ruled since against Russia.
Dozens of mass graves containing hundreds of corpses have been uncovered since the beginning of the First Chechen War in 1994. As of June 2008, there were 57 registered locations of mass graves in Chechnya. According to Amnesty International, thousands may be buried in unmarked graves including up to 5,000 civilians who disappeared since the beginning of the Second Chechen War in 1999. In 2008, the largest mass grave found to date was uncovered in Grozny, containing some 800 bodies from the First Chechen War in 1995. Russia's general policy to the Chechen mass graves is to not exhume them.
---
According to a 2006 report by Médecins Sans Frontières, "the majority of Chechens still struggle through lives burdened by fear, uncertainty and poverty." A survey conducted by MSF in September 2005 showed that 77% of the respondents were suffering from "discernible symptoms of psychological distress".
As of 2008, the infant mortality rate stood at 17 per 1,000, the highest in Russia; There are reports of growing a number of genetic disorders in babies and unexplained illnesses among school children. One child in 10 is born with some kind of anomaly that requires treatment. Some children whose parents can afford it are sent to the neighbouring republic of Dagestan, where treatment is better; Chechnya lacks sufficient medical equipment in most of its medical facilities. According to the United Nations Children's Fund (UNICEF), since 1994 to 2008 about 25,000 children in Chechnya have lost one or both parents. A whole generation of Chechen children is showing symptoms of psychological trauma. In 2006, Chechnya's pro-Moscow deputy health minister, said the Chechen children had become "living specimens" of what it means to grow up with the constant threat of violence and chronic poverty. In 2007, the Chechen interior ministry has identified 1,000 street children involved in vagrancy; the number was increasing.
According to official statistics, Chechnya's unemployment rate in August 2009 was 32.9%. Although the second highest among Russian regions, the unemployment rate has almost halved since 2007. Many people remain homeless because so much of Chechnya's housing was destroyed by the Russian federal forces and many people have not yet been given compensation. Not only the social (such as housing and hospitals) and economic infrastructure but also the foundations of culture and education, including most of educational and cultural institutions, were destroyed over the course of the two wars in Chechnya.
Putin is always the bad guy. He's a KGB coronel.Strangelove wrote:Putin is not the bad guy here.
Yes, written by a fellow the famously leftist Hoover Institution conservative think tank, founded by (and named for) the famously leftist Herbert Hoover, and published on their famously leftist home page.Strangelove wrote:Harebrained leftists conspiracy theories?
Hillarious!
)Ummmm... No.Strangelove wrote:--- if Russia had done anything wrong surely the mighty NATO would've smacked her down.Per wrote: The "separatists" in Ukraine oddly enough have access to Russian tanks and artillery, and Russian soldiers keep coming home in body bags despite not officially being on the scene.... It's all very strange.If Russia had done anything wrong surely the mighty NATO would've smacked her down.Per wrote: Furthermore, since WW2 the international community has considered it illegal to change borders by force.
No. It was part of the Soviet Union. Huge difference.Strangelove wrote:... and the Ukraine was part of Russia for 37 of those years.Per wrote: , it has been part of Ukraine since 1954
According to a referendum held under illegal occupation of a foreign force, and then of course only according to what the occupying army tells us.Strangelove wrote:... most Crimeans were in favour of returning to Russia.
If I may ask: How did you feel about the direction of the United States during the last two years of the "Jimmy Carter" era?Per wrote:I knew there were still some sane republicans out there!
50 former national security officials who have served in senior positions in republican administrations, including names like John Negroponte, Michael Hayden, Tom Ridge, Robert McCallum, William Tobey and William H. Taft IV, explain why Donald Trump is unfit to serve as POTUS:
https://assets.documentcloud.org/docume ... letter.pdf
Oh Strangie. What to do with you? You just do not know how to learn new info and take it in without regressing to homosexual innuendo. You are getting as predictable as Blob.Strangelove wrote:Well isn't that special.Per wrote: Thanks, dbm. Nice to have you here too. I quite enjoy your posts!
Who doesn't love watching a pair of lefties in the early stages of a bromance.
(the smiley face is for the mods)I was 15 in 1978 and living in Sweden. I don't really think I gave it much thought.micky107 wrote: If I may ask: How did you feel about the direction of the United States during the last two years of the "Jimmy Carter" era?
, but the Sundström twins were showing some promise on Björklöven, even if they didn't really have their breakout season till 1980/81.Just for you, Doc:Strangelove wrote:Well isn't that special.Per wrote:l
Thanks, dbm. Nice to have you here too. I quite enjoy your posts!
Who doesn't love watching a pair of lefties in the early stages of a bromance.
Per, I believe Canada and the US are large and diverse enough that sustainability could be achieved.Per wrote:griz wrote: You mean he'll be anti-globalism? Good. I think countries as geographically huge and resource diverse as Canada and the US should be self sufficient.
You obviously know next to nothing about economics!
I believe in shopping locally. Or better yet, to become more sustainable as individuals. Grow your own food. Gather your own energy. I do. That does not make me a Communist. Nor do I believe in banning competition.Per wrote:This is why communist countries always go belly up. Self-sufficiency looks good on paper, but it DOES NOT WORK!
And yeah, some non-communist countries such as Spain under Franco, or Argentina under Peron, have also tried it. Result? Economic disaster. Banning competition does not make you a better athlete. It makes you fat, lazy and improductive. And you end up paying more for inferior products.
The High Price of Free Trade : http://www.epi.org/publication/briefingpapers_bp147/Per wrote:The advantages of free trade are so fundamental that no serious person with any insight into the matter can question it. And we've known that for more than 200 years now.
North Korea seems more like where globalization will take us.Per wrote:See North Korea, a poster child for the ideal of self sufficiency.
The Coup of Ukraine was just fine to you?Per wrote:Besides, you may consider Crimea part of Russia, but the UN, the EU, the USA and Canada do not*, it has been part of Ukraine since 1954. Furthermore, since WW2 the international community has considered it illegal to change borders by force.
Right, because all of the highly educated burger flippers are making a good living working for minimum wage trying to pay off their student loans.Per wrote:Make sure your kids get a good education, and they will always be able to make a good living.
Ummm just chalk it all up to collateral damage + unsubstantiated accusations mmmkay?Per wrote:Well, the key Word here is "violently" as in indiscriminate shelling of civilian areas. Basically bombing Chechenya back to the stone age. Not to mention the systematic use of torture and assassinations.Strangelove wrote: Sure the Chechens are separatists.
But you said "Putin has violently subdued uprisings in Chechenya"... as if he were some kind of monster.
I know that you know, so I'm going to be lazy and just refer you to a wikipedia summary:
*blah blah carefully selected segments from Wikipedia's section on the Second Chechen War blah blah*
How was it you phrased it again? Oh yeah, "Those who attack civilians = “terrorists”."
Yeah well this ain't the movies Pear.Per wrote:Putin is always the bad guy. He's a KGB coronel.Strangelove wrote: Putin is not the bad guy here.
Haven't you watched any movies? How often are KGB the good guys?
Oh pulease.Per wrote:Yes, written by a fellow the famously leftist Hoover Institution conservative think tank, founded by (and named for) the famously leftist Herbert Hoover, and published on their famously leftist home page.Strangelove wrote: "1999 Russian Apartment Bombings False-Flag Inside-Job conspiracy theory"
Harebrained leftists conspiracy theories?
Hillarious!
Hmmm, so if Russia invaded Sweden today....Per wrote:Ummmm... No.Strangelove wrote: If Russia had done anything wrong surely the mighty NATO would've smacked her down.
NATO is an alliance that has the stated purpose to defend its members. Ukraine is not a member.
Okay, let me rephrase:Per wrote:No. It was part of the Soviet Union. Huge difference.Strangelove wrote:... and the Ukraine was part of Russia for 37 of those years.Per wrote: , it has been part of Ukraine since 1954
Similar to Crimea being an Autonomous Republic of USSR and later of Ukraine.Per wrote: Russia was one of several soviet republics, that together constituted the Soviet Union.
When the Soviet Union split up, the new countries that were formed maintained the borders of the former Soviet Republics. Thus the Ukrainian Soviet Republic became Ukraine, maintaing the very same borders as an independent nation that it had had as a Soviet Republic. Parts of Ukraine were part of Russia prior to 1917, but that is a different story.
Hey man if I misread your overtures to Per I apologize...damonberryman wrote:Oh Strangie. What to do with you? You just do not know how to learn new info and take it in without regressing to homosexual innuendo. You are getting as predictable as Blob.Strangelove wrote:So if I'm reading you correctly, what you're saying is...damonberryman wrote: +Nice too have you here Per. You manage to make the points I want to make without the homocidal underlying flavour.
Per makes points with a homosexual underlying flavour?
... because they're gonna have the reincarnation of Hitler for a president?damonberryman wrote: Just do not expect to change minds with intelligent arguments. I live in the States and am afraid for my kids and grandkids
I don't even want to know how you found out Per wears a hairpiece and drives a Porsche...damonberryman wrote: BTW. I do not mind the hair piece. A guy has to do what he has to do. Fortunately I have a full head of hair but no Porsche. See a lot of balding men my age driving around in expensive cars and I toodle along in my cheap paid for ride WITH a full head of hair