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Per you're getting gang banged hard in this thread lol

Almost feeling bad tapping shoulders for my turn. Sorry bro

Strangelove wrote: ↑Sat Sep 15, 2018 3:24 pm Whatever, the theme of my posts has clearly been about immigration and the Muslim effect on Sweden.

(I have said nothing about race whatsoever)

I'll get back to this later. Have to go to work, and I'll be quite busy today, so this will have to wait.

Strangelove wrote: ↑Sat Sep 15, 2018 3:24 pm Yup trying to make every conversation about racism in a duplicitous attempt to gain the moral high ground...

Well, we are talking about the Sweden Democrats, and one of the main problems most people have with them is that they are very concerned with race. Hard to not talk about racism when you talk about them.

Now, let me just try this out. When you think of Swedes, is it possible that you would include Börje Salming in this category?

If so, our deputy speaker, and the party secretary of the Sweden Democrats, begs to differ:

Sweden’s general election is just a month away, and the deputy speaker of the Swedish parliament has this summer repeated his claim that Jewish and Sami people are not Swedes. Björn Söder, of the far-right Sweden Democrats party – which is currently polling at a record 20%, just behind the ruling Social Democrats – first made the claim in a newspaper interview four years ago, to widespread condemnation.

This time he posted his comment on the Facebook page of the opposition liberal Centre party – an act that has been denounced as “a provocation” by other Swedish politicians.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... l-election

Now, you may not know this, but Börje Salming, the great Swedish hockey hero, who paved the way for Swedes in the NHL, is a proud member of the Sami minority.

Salming was born on 17 April 1951 in the village of Salmi, Jukkasjärvi församling, in Kiruna near Torneträsk. His father, Erland, was of Sami origin, while his mother, Karin, was Swedish. His paternal grandfather Anders Nikolaus had the surname of Saari, but changed to Salming after the village that he and his father (Börje's great-grandfather) had built up. His father was a mineworker and died in an accident in the mine when Salming was 5 years old. He is proud of his Sami heritage, and wears a traditional Sami pewter bracelet.[2][3] He is the first person of Sami origin to play in a top North American professional sports league.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Börje_Salming

Just saying. This is how crazy these peope are.

Oh, and Söder is not alone. From that same article:

Mattias Karlsson, the party’s chief ideologist, once said that the “body language” of the country’s most famous footballer, Zlatan Ibrahimovic – his father is a Muslim who fled Bosnia – didn’t come across as Swedish, and neither did the way Ibrahimovic “talks, acts and speaks”. Karlsson has dismissed Söder’s critics as “cosmopolites”. That expression will be familiar to anyone who knows at least a little about the history of antisemitism. But Karlsson uses it without blinking.

I assure you, it is very much about race.

Now, if you choose to defend them, and then say "it's not about race", I have to conclude that either you don't know what you are talking about or that you are being obtuse on purpose.

Granted, I can accept that quite likely a lot of their voters are not necessarily racist, but just fed up with the traditional parties, but the party itself, its roots and its ideology are definitely racist. Which is why none of the other parties will even consider cooperating with them.

Some more examples:

On this side you have people who are 100% human…” said the Sweden Democratic politician Martin Strid at this years party congress, friday november 24, “…and on this side we have people who are 100% Mahommedan”. He helpfully held up his hands to illustrate the two things you could be according to him: wholly human on the one hand and wholly Muslim on the other – all live on state television.

(Swedish TV have since been reprimanded for not distancing themselves from his hate speech)

the most notable one is the so called “Iron Pipe scandal” which is almost too fantastical to be believed; several members from what at the time was the party leadership called a Swedish comedian of Kurdish extraction a “baboon”, a woman defending him “a whore” and a “wog lover” and, perhaps most absurdly, filmed themselves getting iron pipes to beat the comedian with after the altercation.

https://europaunited.eu/2017/11/27/the- ... democrats/

Per wrote: ↑Sun Sep 16, 2018 11:27 pm

Strangelove wrote: ↑Sat Sep 15, 2018 3:24 pm Yup trying to make every conversation about racism in a duplicitous attempt to gain the moral high ground...

Well, we are talking about the Sweden Democrats, and one of the main problems most people have with them is that they are very concerned with race. Hard to not talk about racism when you talk about them.

Yeahno, I was talking about you implying that I am racist (due to the Muslim twins pic).

I have already agreed with you that the SDs are racist (where I said "Okay you win, I guess Sweden is going Nazi").

I never said I support the SDs, rather I have pointed out that the popularity of the SDs proves there are major problems in Sweden.

(from the beginning I have said you are in denial about said problems, starting with the Frank Drebin gif)

I have also stated that I am in favour of the Muslims eventually replacing the atheists/heathens in Sweden!

(more proof that I don't support the SDs and something one would think a guy like you should construe as non-racism)

WAKE UP! You have been brainwashed into swallowing the new "progressive" attitude that anti-liberalism equates to racism.

Strangelove wrote: ↑Mon Sep 17, 2018 12:15 pm WAKE UP! You have been brainwashed into swallowing the new "progressive" attitude that anti-liberalism equates to racism.

Can you spin the famous "There were fine people on both sides" quote?

Per wrote: ↑Sun Sep 16, 2018 11:27 pm
Now, if you choose to defend them, and then say "it's not about race", I have to conclude that either you don't know what you are talking about or that you are being obtuse on purpose.

Ding ding ding, we have winner.

It is his thing.

Cornuck wrote: ↑Mon Sep 17, 2018 1:31 pm

Strangelove wrote: ↑Mon Sep 17, 2018 12:15 pm WAKE UP! You have been brainwashed into swallowing the new "progressive" attitude that anti-liberalism equates to racism.

Can you spin the famous "There were fine people on both sides" quote?

TRUMP: Excuse me, excuse me. (inaudible) themselves (inaudible) and you have some very bad people in that group. But you also had people that were very fine people, on both sides. You had people in that group — excuse me, excuse me — I saw the same pictures as you did. You had people in that group that were (only) there to protest the taking down of, to them, a very, very important statue and the renaming of a park from Robert E. Lee to another name.


Remember, not everyone that attended the rally were white supremacists.

Trump also said there were very bad people on both sides. (truth)

Trump has condemned racism many times, but that doesn't stop the libs from trying to spin him as a racist...

Reefer2 wrote: ↑Mon Sep 17, 2018 3:09 pm

Per wrote: ↑Sun Sep 16, 2018 11:27 pm
Now, if you choose to defend them, and then say "it's not about race", I have to conclude that either you don't know what you are talking about or that you are being obtuse on purpose.

Ding ding ding, we have winner.

It is his thing.

Sadly, your obtuseness is not "on purpose".

How exactly was I being "obtuse" in this matter?

As I said, Per was dead wrong about me "choosing to defend the SDs".

The SD want to keep the Muslims out, while I want the Muslims to not only flood the country

... but to "replace the heathens/athiests."

Is any of this getting through??

How many fingers am I holding up?

Obtuseness, thy name is Reefer2.

Strangelove wrote: ↑Mon Sep 17, 2018 4:17 pm You had people in that group that were (only) there to protest the taking down of, to them, a very, very important statue and the renaming of a park from Robert E. Lee to another name.[/color][/b]

Ok - so if you're at a rally on the same side as the Klan, you're a good person? Gotchya, just checking.

Cornuck wrote: ↑Mon Sep 17, 2018 4:38 pm

Strangelove wrote: ↑Mon Sep 17, 2018 4:17 pm You had people in that group that were (only) there to protest the taking down of, to them, a very, very important statue and the renaming of a park from Robert E. Lee to another name.[/color][/b]

Ok - so if you're at a rally on the same side as the Klan, you're a good person? Gotchya, just checking.

The rally was to oppose the taking down of a statue.

All kinds of people were opposed to that, some "fine" and some "very bad"...

Strangelove wrote: ↑Mon Sep 17, 2018 4:41 pm The rally was to oppose the taking down of a statue.

All kinds of people were opposed to that, some "fine" and some "very bad"...

I guess we'll be in disagreement then. I don't consider people protesting the removal of a statue which has offended a lot of people over the decades 'fine'.

Cornuck wrote: ↑Mon Sep 17, 2018 4:45 pm

Strangelove wrote: ↑Mon Sep 17, 2018 4:41 pm The rally was to oppose the taking down of a statue.

All kinds of people were opposed to that, some "fine" and some "very bad"...

I guess we'll be in disagreement then. I don't consider people protesting the removal of a statue which has offended a lot of people over the decades 'fine'.

People are offended too easily these days.

Strangelove wrote: ↑Mon Sep 17, 2018 4:50 pm

Cornuck wrote: ↑Mon Sep 17, 2018 4:45 pm

Strangelove wrote: ↑Mon Sep 17, 2018 4:41 pm The rally was to oppose the taking down of a statue.

All kinds of people were opposed to that, some "fine" and some "very bad"...

I guess we'll be in disagreement then. I don't consider people protesting the removal of a statue which has offended a lot of people over the decades 'fine'.

People are offended too easily these days.

Yes.... Lee was such a 'hero'... In a city with a 20% African-American population, you would rather see a big statue of a Lee and have a public park named after him?

Lee insisted later, but if it (the Civil War) was about slavery, it was only out of Christian devotion that white southerners fought to keep blacks enslaved. LINK

But I guess to defend your orange hero, you have to defend racist slaveholders as well, right, врач?

Bottom line: Donald Trump is not a racist.

Strangelove wrote: ↑Mon Sep 17, 2018 5:14 pm Bottom line: Donald Trump is not a racist.

You and I will never know for sure, but he does a damn fine impression of one.

Per wrote: ↑Sun Sep 16, 2018 11:27 pm

Strangelove wrote: ↑Sat Sep 15, 2018 3:24 pm Whatever, the theme of my posts has clearly been about immigration and the Muslim effect on Sweden.

(I have said nothing about race whatsoever)

I'll get back to this later. Have to go to work, and I'll be quite busy today, so this will have to wait.

OK, finally an attempt to respond to this. A bit of a rambling rant perhaps, but as I said, really busy at work right now, so I haven't had time to put in a lot of effort.

Strangelove wrote: ↑Fri Sep 14, 2018 4:28 pm No no no, I meant what do you think about you and yours being replaced by those folks over time.

(they increase in numbers over generations + you and yours decrease = extinction of the libs)

I was wondering if you see the folly of your "progressive" (HA!) ways yet.

Personally I look forward to the inevitable establishment of Sharia Law in Sweden.

"Swedish Twins" of the future:

OK, so if we are serious about not taking race into the equation, the entire problem goes away!

Most studies show that second generation immigrants tend to have values closer to those of the country they grow up in than the country their parents grew up in. I mean, this is of course a generalization, it does not apply to every individual, and it is not always a complete match. But still.

Another figure of interest is that when it comes to "second generation immigrants" in Sweden, only 23% have parents that come from the same country. 68% have one foreign born and one Swedish born parent and 9% have two foreign born parents that come from different countries.

Both these facts speak for assimilation.

Over time, the children and grandchildren of immigrants typically adopt the customs and the culture of the new country (in this case Sweden).

Just look around in Canada.
21.9% of the Canadian population is foreign born.
https://www.cicnews.com/2017/10/immigra ... gs.9aC=pGQ

And it has been more or less the same throughout the history of Canada.
And still I'd say there is a pretty strong and easily identified Canadian culture.

A recent figure I saw said that 15.9% of the Swedish population is foreign born. That is a very high figure for Europe, but not quite as high as Canada's. On top of that there are some 12% or so that have at least one foreign born parent.

But before someone start wailing about the coming of Eurabia, sit back and relax.
At least half the Swedish immigrants are European, with two of the larger groups coming from Finland and former Yugoslavia.
A lot of those, you can't even tell from looking at them that they are not "native" Swedes.
Well, the Yugos are mixed lot, of course; some are blond and blue eyed, some look like Zlatan Ibrahimovic. But whatever.

Next, the statistics on Muslims in Sweden are severely inflated.
We do not register race or religion in our statistics, so there aren't actually any official numbers.
The figures you hear are typically estimated on the basis of origin.
The worst sources will consider ALL immigrants from Muslim majority countries Muslim, which of course is bullshit, but this is what you often get in the Eurabia scenarios.
More serious sources will attempt to correct the estimate by going on the percentage of Muslims in the country of origin, ie if 100 immigrants arrive from a country that is 75% Muslim, they will guess that 75 of th eimmigrants are Muslims. But even this is wrong.

Think about it.

Refugees tend to flee their countries because they are being persecuted. Minorities are far more often persecuted than the majority.
Therefor a disproportionate number of refugees from Muslim countries are actually not Muslims.
Sure, some of them are. But a large part of them belong to minority groups, eg Christians, Bahaï, Zoroastrians, atheists, Mandaeans, etc.

Sweden now has one of the largest group of Mandaeans outside of the Middle East. Prior to the Iraq war, they were mainly found in Iraq, but from what I hear almost all of them have left, albeit most of them have ended up in Iran, Syria and Jordan. Not sure the ones who fled to Syria are any better off than they were in Iraq....
Never heard of them? Oh yes, you have. Except you didn't know what they were called. They are the followers of John the Baptist. Very popular religious sect in Roman Judea back when JC roamed the land. He was probably part of that group before he formed his own church. That's why the bible spends so much time explaining why John actually was the follower of Christ, not his leader, even though it was he who baptised Christ and not the other way around... In the first century AD, they fled persecution in Judea (I mean, John himself was decapitated) and migrated to Mesopotamia, ie Iraq. Today there are only some 100,000 of them (albeit, frankly, that's probably more than when Johnny B was alive). And a fair bunch of them now live in Sweden.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandaeism

Let me present the example of Södertälje, birth place of Björn Borg and Anders Eldebrink (of Canuck fame) and home to the Scania Trucks HQ.
In Södertälje more than half the population are immigrants. Mainly from Iraq and Syria.
In fact, the city of Södertälje alone, has taken in more Syrian refugees than the USA.
"Ha! I told you so!" you say triumphantly. "The Muslims are taking over."

But no. Södertälje is in fact probably one of the most islamophobic places you can find.
Most of the immigrants in Södertälje are Assyrians. Once they ruled the known world, now they have a scoccer team in Sweden's second tier league.
Assyrians today are a group of Arab speaking Christians that can be found mainly in Iraq and Syria. Neither place is at present considered a very safe place for Christians, so they came here. Instead, Muslims in Södertälje do not feel safe. They are bullied at school, ostracized and not made feel welcome at all, by their Arab speaking neighbours.

At some point a bunch of Assyrians came to Södertälje, found jobs at the Scania factory and settled down. And told their friends and relatives that this was a nice place. Since then, whenever there is unrest in the Middle East, more Assyrians arrive.
Now, having this many people of the same group has a twofold effect on integration. In one way it makes integration into society easier, because being surrounded by so many people from "the old country" makes it easier to find a job, get advice, find someplace to live, etc. At the same time it makes true assimilation harder, because you spend so much time within your ethnic group, you might not adopt the majority culture as fast as you would in a place with fewer fellow expats. Thus Assyrians are usually not as secular as Swedes in general. They like to wear big crucifixes on chains or necklaces to flaunt their religion.
But they'll adapt eventually.

Most people I know that are Iranian (or half Iranian) are secular. The Iranian women I know have short sleeved clothes and show their hair.
Think about it. The Iranians that came here were the secular upper middle class who lived like Americans/Europeans and who fled for their life when the Shah was toppled. Religion ruined their life. Their main concern now is to push their kids through med school so they can regain the status their family had back home. Or at least become engineers or dentists.

Now, I know that some disgruntled and marginalized Muslim young men, typically high school dropouts and petty thieves, turn to salafism and jihad to try to be someone and gain status. But they are a confused minority within the minority.

Most people from the Middle East adapt. They dance around the midsummer pole like the rest of us, drink too much, put up cheezy xmas ornaments (that stay up till Easter, because they're not used to the tradition and do not know when they're supposed to be gone) and in general adapt to mainstream Sweden. Not all of them, but most of them.

My eldest daughter's boyfriend's sister is married to an engineer with Iranian parents. He's a great guy.
Several of my youngest daughter's best friends are of mixed background. One is half Canadian, another half Iranian, one is Syrian. And they party just like anyone else. One year at high school a bunch had a Secret Santa party, it was organised by a Jewish girl, and at least three of those attending were of Muslim background.

It's not all burning cars in a run down neighbourhood, albeit that definitely does happen to.
But those are the exceptions, not the rules.

If you look at the graph on page 31 in this report, you'll see that between 60-70% of all different groups of immigrants consider themselves integrated into Swedish culture, with another 20-30% describing themselves as fully assimilated. The group feeling marginalized or separated from mainstream society is greater among people from Africa and Asia (roughly 15%), but hopefully their kids will do better.
https://www.diva-portal.org/smash/get/d ... TEXT01.pdf

Sweden is doing great. GDP/capita is rising. Unemployment is falling. We're top five or top ten in the world in almost any index of well being you can find. This whole idea that we are a failing nation is just fake news. Propaganda, I tell you.
https://nordic.businessinsider.com/here ... lot-2017-6