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Re: US Erection 12 *AND* 16
Posted: Wed Sep 07, 2016 1:43 pm
by ukcanuck
As I'm sitting here sacrificing valuable shut eye for a dishonest conversation. I am forced to consider I am the bigger fool.
Wake me up when you get tired of shitting on the chess board and considering it a victory.
I've only got about 30 years on this earth left, perhaps there will be enough time ?
Re: US Erection 12 *AND* 16
Posted: Wed Sep 07, 2016 1:53 pm
by ukcanuck
Cornuck wrote:ukcanuck wrote:This may or may not be a good point, however, it still doesn't alter the reality that hoax claimers enjoy an easy time of it as they don't have to prove the science but merely need to cast doubt in order to troll in the easily misled...
Does this mean that 9/11
wasn't an inside job?
Highly possible
All depends on you're point of view I guess
Re: US Erection 12 *AND* 16
Posted: Wed Sep 07, 2016 2:17 pm
by Strangelove
ukcanuck wrote:
I didn't have to google his critics, I know enough about this topic all by my little lonesome.
Just going by your response, obviously you do not...
ukcanuck wrote:
you brought the term "Reductio ad Hitlerum" to the party and you slammed poor old Damon for it. However, somehow in your Archie Bunker delusional mind it's okay to throw around.
Now
what pray tell is wrong with applying 'Reductio ad Hitlerum' appropriately?
Not only is it "okay" to use the term... it's the morally correct thing to do!
Damon was first to compare one of the candidates to Hitler, what part of this do you not understand?
ukcanuck wrote:
Strangelove wrote:
ukcanuck wrote:
in popular culture, "Nazi or Hitler" means an extreme right wing, evil prick that gassed 6 million innocent Jews...
Nazism AKA "National Socialism" originally hated Capitalism which was blamed on the Jews.
The Jews remained the scapegoats as Nazi Germany went full-fascist.
Fascism was the baby of anti-capitalist student-of-Marxism Mussolini over in Italy.
Fascism came out of Left field... where it ended is a question debated by historians to this day.
(Nazism also came out of Left field)
These days popular culture considers fascism as right-wing due to it's nationalistic tendencies and such.
But the Right didn't give birth to it
... and the Jews were gassed at least partially for their alleged capitalistic ways.
To this I say, first figure out the difference between the terms Fascist and Nazi they are not synonyms.
I did not say the two terms are synonymous: Reading comprehension.
ukcanuck wrote:
secondly, read up on the First World War
ukcanuck wrote:
Thirdly, before explaining Hitler was anti capitalist, read Mein Kampf, Hitler hated the Jews for bank rolling the Allies war effort and he detested Germany's capitalists for signing the Treaty of Versailles.
So Hitler was not "anti capitalist" and he "detested Germany's capitalists". Whatevs bro!
I said: Nazism AKA "National Socialism" originally hated Capitalism.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazism#Anti-capitalism
Anti-capitalism
The Nazis argued that capitalism damages nations due to international finance, the economic dominance of big business, and Jewish influences. Nazi propaganda posters in working class districts emphasised anti-capitalism, such as one that said: "The maintenance of a rotten industrial system has nothing to do with nationalism. I can love Germany and hate capitalism."
Adolf Hitler, both in public and in private, expressed disdain for capitalism, arguing that it holds nations ransom in the interests of a parasitic cosmopolitan rentier class. He opposed free market capitalism's profit-seeking impulses and desired an economy in which community interests would be upheld.
Hitler distrusted capitalism for being unreliable due to its egotism, and he preferred a state-directed economy that is subordinated to the interests of the Volk.
Hitler told a party leader in 1934, "The economic system of our day is the creation of the Jews." Hitler said to Benito Mussolini that capitalism had "run its course". Hitler also said that the business bourgeoisie "know nothing except their profit. 'Fatherland' is only a word for them." Hitler was personally disgusted with the ruling bourgeois elites of Germany during the period of the Weimar Republic, who he referred to as "cowardly shits".
In Mein Kampf, Hitler effectively supported mercantilism, in the belief that economic resources from their respective territories should be seized by force; he believed that the policy of Lebensraum would provide Germany with such economically valuable territories. He argued that the only means to maintain economic security was to have direct control over resources rather than being forced to rely on world trade. He claimed that war to gain such resources was the only means to surpass the failing capitalist economic system.
A number of other Nazis held strong revolutionary socialist and anti-capitalist beliefs, most prominently Ernst Röhm, the leader of the Sturmabteilung (SA). Röhm claimed that the Nazis' rise to power constituted a national revolution, but insisted that a socialist "second revolution" was required for Nazi ideology to be fulfilled. Röhm's SA began attacks against individuals deemed to be associated with conservative reaction. Hitler saw Röhm's independent actions as violating and possibly threatening his leadership, as well as jeopardising the regime by alienating the conservative President Paul von Hindenburg and the conservative-oriented German Army. This resulted in Hitler purging Röhm and other radical members of the SA.
Another radical Nazi, Propaganda Minister Joseph Goebbels had stressed the socialist character of Nazism, and claimed in his diary in the 1920s that if he were to pick between Bolshevism and capitalism, he said "in final analysis", "it would be better for us to go down with Bolshevism than live in eternal slavery under capitalism."
(lots of links over there)
Not surprised you read Mein Kampf.
Not surprised you didn't understand it...
Re: US Erection 12 *AND* 16
Posted: Wed Sep 07, 2016 2:19 pm
by Strangelove
Topper wrote:Strangelove wrote:^ "son of a whore"
the mutt got paid?
A Kenyan shilling + 3 grams of bath salt!
Re: US Erection 12 *AND* 16
Posted: Wed Sep 07, 2016 2:30 pm
by Per
Strangelove wrote:ukcanuck wrote:
I'll leave the troposphere thing for Per I'm still picking the cheerio that backed up my nasal cavity at your post about Nazis were once fascists and fascists and communists both rose from the progressive movement in the 19th century, therefore: nazis are actually communists ...
lovely manipulation of history that one
I said that?
Lol I mentioned Goldberg and it appears you googled to find his critics.
But yeah: Reading comprehension.
(typical fucking goosestepping commie)
ukcanuck wrote:
However, even if that were true in bizarro world, it still doesn't change the fact that righties use the term Communist in order to bait arguments from the left into losing their credibility in exactly the same manner that lefties toss back the N word because in popular culture, "Nazi or Hitler" means an extreme right wing, evil prick that gassed 6 million innocent Jews...
Nazism AKA "National Socialism" originally hated Capitalism which was blamed on the Jews.
The Jews remained the scapegoats as Nazi Germany went full-fascist.
Fascism was the baby of anti-capitalist student-of-Marxism Mussolini over in Italy.
Fascism came out of Left field... where it ended is a question debated by historians to this day.
(Nazism also came out of Left field)
These days popular culture considers fascism as right-wing due to it's nationalistic tendencies and such.
But the Right didn't give birth to it
... and the Jews were gassed at least partially for their alleged capitalistic ways.
And you conveniently neglect to mention that the Nazis considered the Communists their arch enemy, that they allied themselves with the conservatives in parliament to gain power and that they were killing communists (and putting them in concentration camps) long before they started killing Jews (or putting them in concentration camps).
The problem is that people focus on the right-left scale, and believe that if fascism and communism are almost the same, they are also on the same side of that scale. They are not.
There is another scale, that goes from authoritarian to liberal(if you're European)/libertarian(if you're American).
Nazism, Fascism and Communism are all at the extreme end of that scale. The government has total power. The individual has none. At the other extreme you find anarchists, neoliberals and libertarians.
People looking only on left vs right can think that anarchists and communists are the same, but they hate each other almost as much as communists and nazis (guess the commies don't get along with anyone
).
Likewise if you only look at that perspective, libertarians, conservatives and fascists may look the same, but libertarians and fascists are extreme polar opposites when it comes to the rights of the individual vs the rights of the government, with conservatives somewhere in between.
The Nazis tried to appeal to the downtrodden workers in Germany, which is why they added the "socialist workers' party" to their name, but make no mistake, they were a right wing party, as are all neo-nazi parties popping up in Europe today, like eg the National Front in France or the Sweden Democrats, the True Finns, etc.
Re: US Erection 12 *AND* 16
Posted: Wed Sep 07, 2016 2:36 pm
by Strangelove
Per, what you are missing is the fact that said "Communists" wanted Germany to join up with the Soviet Union.
The Nazis were also dirty commies but they were dead set against dat dere.
The Nazis were nationalistic commies, a new breed of animal so to speak.
Today's "neo-nazis" may be right wing
... but German Nazism originally was most definitely a left wing construct.
Like I say, then they went full-fascist with a nod to Mussolini... and became??
... who knows what.
Re: US Erection 12 *AND* 16
Posted: Wed Sep 07, 2016 2:55 pm
by Per
Strangelove wrote:
Anti-capitalism
The Nazis argued that capitalism damages nations due to international finance, the economic dominance of big business, and Jewish influences. Nazi propaganda posters in working class districts emphasised anti-capitalism, such as one that said: "The maintenance of a rotten industrial system has nothing to do with nationalism. I can love Germany and hate capitalism."
Adolf Hitler, both in public and in private, expressed disdain for capitalism, arguing that it holds nations ransom in the interests of a parasitic cosmopolitan rentier class. He opposed free market capitalism's profit-seeking impulses and desired an economy in which community interests would be upheld.
Hitler distrusted capitalism for being unreliable due to its egotism, and he preferred a state-directed economy that is subordinated to the interests of the Volk.
Hitler told a party leader in 1934, "The economic system of our day is the creation of the Jews." Hitler said to Benito Mussolini that capitalism had "run its course". Hitler also said that the business bourgeoisie "know nothing except their profit. 'Fatherland' is only a word for them." Hitler was personally disgusted with the ruling bourgeois elites of Germany during the period of the Weimar Republic, who he referred to as "cowardly shits".
In Mein Kampf, Hitler effectively supported mercantilism, in the belief that economic resources from their respective territories should be seized by force; he believed that the policy of Lebensraum would provide Germany with such economically valuable territories. He argued that the only means to maintain economic security was to have direct control over resources rather than being forced to rely on world trade. He claimed that war to gain such resources was the only means to surpass the failing capitalist economic system.
A number of other Nazis held strong revolutionary socialist and anti-capitalist beliefs, most prominently Ernst Röhm, the leader of the Sturmabteilung (SA). Röhm claimed that the Nazis' rise to power constituted a national revolution, but insisted that a socialist "second revolution" was required for Nazi ideology to be fulfilled. Röhm's SA began attacks against individuals deemed to be associated with conservative reaction. Hitler saw Röhm's independent actions as violating and possibly threatening his leadership, as well as jeopardising the regime by alienating the conservative President Paul von Hindenburg and the conservative-oriented German Army. This resulted in Hitler purging Röhm and other radical members of the SA.
Another radical Nazi, Propaganda Minister Joseph Goebbels had stressed the socialist character of Nazism, and claimed in his diary in the 1920s that if he were to pick between Bolshevism and capitalism, he said "in final analysis", "it would be better for us to go down with Bolshevism than live in eternal slavery under capitalism."
Sure, Röhm and his SA thugs were socialists. Which is why Hitler purged them from the party.
You know that Hitler originally joined the party as a government spy, right? Then high-jacked it and made it serve his interests. Guess the original leaders may have bern more left leaning and hence the name, but as this quote of yours mentions, Hitler preferred to ally himself with the conservatives. He then banned first the communist and then the social democratic party.
The article above also mentions that Hitler hated capitalism because he preferred mercantilism! Now that is a dead give-away. Mercantilism is classic conservatism, whereas the liberals were the once who pushed for the free market. Hitler was attacking capitalism from the right! Might seem absurd for those of us growing up during the cold war, but hey, many of the extreme right wing populists that are popping up today also hate free trade and globalisation, or as Hitler might have called it "cosmopolitanism". We're going back to the 1930's!
Re: US Erection 12 *AND* 16
Posted: Wed Sep 07, 2016 3:03 pm
by Strangelove
Per, you keep saying Hitler this, Hitler that.
I keep saying Nazis this, Nazis that, fascists this, fascists that.
Oh and of course you pinks are going to remain in denial about the leftist roots of Nazism and Fascism...
Re: US Erection 12 *AND* 16
Posted: Wed Sep 07, 2016 3:06 pm
by Cornuck
Strangelove wrote:Per, you keep saying Hitler this, Hitler that.
I keep saying Nazis this, Nazis that, fascists this, fascists that.
Oh and of course you pinks are going to remain in denial about the leftist roots of Nazism and Fascism...
Yes, of course - and the Republicans are the party of Lincoln!
Amazing how people, groups and ideologies can evolve (or are they created?)
Re: US Erection 12 *AND* 16
Posted: Wed Sep 07, 2016 3:11 pm
by ukcanuck
Strangelove wrote:Per, you keep saying Hitler this, Hitler that.
I keep saying Nazis this, Nazis that, fascists this, fascists that.
Oh and of course you pinks are going to remain in denial about the leftist roots of Nazism and Fascism...
oh look you just used both nazism and fascism as if they were the samething again...
Fascism had roots in progressivism as does Marxism and communism and liberalism and even conservatism
But nazism is a different kettle of fish
You should stop twisting reality to suit strangeworld it's not healthy
Re: US Erection 12 *AND* 16
Posted: Wed Sep 07, 2016 3:11 pm
by Strangelove
Cornuck wrote:Strangelove wrote:Per, you keep saying Hitler this, Hitler that.
I keep saying Nazis this, Nazis that, fascists this, fascists that.
Oh and of course you pinks are going to remain in denial about the leftist roots of Nazism and Fascism...
Yes, of course - and the Republicans are the party of Lincoln!
Amazing how people, groups and ideologies can evolve (or are they created?)
Exactly.
Even the definition of political words change.
"Liberal" used to mean pretty much the opposite of what it does today.
"Communism"
always meant Soviet Communism back in the day.
It can be confusing to read old text-books, news-articles...
Re: US Erection 12 *AND* 16
Posted: Wed Sep 07, 2016 3:13 pm
by Strangelove
ukcanuck wrote:
oh look you just used both nazism and fascism as if they were the samething again...
OMG wot an idiot...
Re: US Erection 12 *AND* 16
Posted: Wed Sep 07, 2016 3:14 pm
by Per
Strangelove wrote:Per, what you are missing is the fact that said "Communists" wanted Germany to join up with the Soviet Union.
The Nazis were also dirty commies but they were dead set against dat dere.
The Nazis were nationalistic commies, a new breed of animal so to speak.
Today's "neo-nazis" may be right wing
... but German Nazism originally was most definitely a left wing construct.
Like I say, then they went full-fascist with a nod to Mussolini... and became??
... who knows what.
I actually think Mussolini was more of a commie than Hitler, but even Mussolini embraced the three pillars of conservatism; nation, church, family.
Still, his corporativism, copied by Franco's right wing falangist movement, then served as model both for Peron's Argentina and Castro's Cuba. So, yes, there are obvious links between communism and fascism. But Hitler allied himself with the conservatives right from the get go. And banned the communists, arrested them and had them executed. It just seems absurd to try to rewrite history with Hitler as a commie. I'm sorry. Not buying it. Why would a godless commie make his soldiers wear a belt buckle that says "Gott mit uns!"?
Re: US Erection 12 *AND* 16
Posted: Wed Sep 07, 2016 3:21 pm
by Strangelove
Per wrote:
And banned the communists, arrested them and had them executed. It just seems absurd to try to rewrite history with Hitler as a commie.
Hitler wasn't left/right... he was a seductive madman.
Nazism AKA "National Socialism" though, was a left wing construct.
You must have missed my post about the "Communists" in Germany wanting to join the Soviet Union.
This of course put them very much at odds with the
nationalistic pinko Nazis.
All of Europe was leaning left in those days...
Re: US Erection 12 *AND* 16
Posted: Wed Sep 07, 2016 3:22 pm
by Per
Strangelove wrote:
"Liberal" used to mean pretty much the opposite of what it does today.
Liberal still means what it always meant; pro free trade, pro democracy, pro free speech, favouring the individual over the government.
It's just that a lot of Americans are using it wrongly as a euphemism for socialist.
The BC Liberals get it right.
Strangelove wrote:"Communism" always meant Soviet Communism back in the day.
Communism was originally used disparagingly against the Christians in Rome, as the Christians did not believe in private possessions and donated all they owned to the church when joining. As Christ orders all his followers to do. Read the bible! Now there's a commie for you!
