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Religion as a moral compass is limited. It is always playing catch up with modern thought. Gay rights, for example. Therefore, our morals should be up for debate, which precludes religion in the discussion as it is based on faith not logic.

5thhorseman wrote: ↑Wed Jan 15, 2025 11:17 am Religion as a moral compass is limited. It is always playing catch up with modern thought. Gay rights, for example. Therefore, our morals should be up for debate, which precludes religion in the discussion as it is based on faith not logic.

Are morals based on logic?

Seems to me, no matter your moral code, you are starting with fundamental assumption (or set of assumptions) about the nature of "good" or "right". That first principle isn't derived, it is asserted as an a priori truth.

While I agree logic can help take those first principles and mold them into a mostly workable and coherent moral framework -- deriving rules and standards from those first principles -- I am not aware of any system of morality that doesn't start with one or more assertions of moral value that are not logically derived, but given as true. What makes them given as true? Dig, and its intuition, sentiment, or faith.

UWSaint wrote: ↑Wed Jan 15, 2025 11:34 am Dig, and its intuition, sentiment, or faith.

Or the logical choice of self-preservation, which might lead one to abide by the Golden rule in order to enable a community, which ultimately improves outcomes for the individual.

Self preservation of what? The individual? The colony? The society? The religion?

The individual.

One might say that self-preservation is not a logical choice, but rather an instinct.

All the same, morality is something we do to help ourselves function as a community. It is a recognition of shared interest.

I am not a religious person at all.

I'm not a churchgoer.

I do consider myself more spiritual than most however.

"Personal relationship with God" and all that.

Had a "Road to Damascus moment."

Was shocked to discover Jesus is actually the messiah.

But to me, folks who cannot at least discern that there must be a creator of some kind... seem blind

... or perhaps playing some kind of convoluted denial game.

Anyway FWIW, I say religion sucks, relationship is where it's at.

Jesus sets us free from religion, among other things...

Since the ongoing topic seems to be religion let's throw a Devil in the mix.

What the actual fuck with the shoulder shimmy bro?

https://www.instagram.com/reel/DE29gbao ... QxejJ5cGp0

donlever wrote: ↑Wed Jan 15, 2025 4:01 pm Since the ongoing topic seems to be religion let's throw a Devil in the mix.

What the actual fuck with the shoulder shimmy bro?

https://www.instagram.com/reel/DE29gbao ... QxejJ5cGp0

He's on something I'd say. Dude is as phony as a $3 bill

Cousin Strawberry wrote: ↑Wed Jan 15, 2025 4:14 pm

donlever wrote: ↑Wed Jan 15, 2025 4:01 pm Since the ongoing topic seems to be religion let's throw a Devil in the mix.

What the actual fuck with the shoulder shimmy bro?

https://www.instagram.com/reel/DE29gbao ... QxejJ5cGp0

He's on something I'd say. Dude is as phony as a $3 bill

Phony you say?

https://en.numista.com/catalogue/note219355.html

Gavin Newsom.

With as much positive influence on the state and future of California as a Bahamian 3 dollar bill.

5thhorseman wrote: ↑Wed Jan 15, 2025 1:39 pm The individual.

One might say that self-preservation is not a logical choice, but rather an instinct.

So Christianity would be the one religion that flys in the face of your position.

It’s founder certainly was not motivated by self-preservation.

donlever wrote: ↑Wed Jan 15, 2025 4:01 pm Since the ongoing topic seems to be religion let's throw a Devil in the mix.

What the actual fuck with the shoulder shimmy bro?

https://www.instagram.com/reel/DE29gbao ... QxejJ5cGp0

Just as he says 'land speculators" . Close to the bone?

Mëds wrote: ↑Wed Jan 15, 2025 5:48 pm

5thhorseman wrote: ↑Wed Jan 15, 2025 1:39 pm The individual.

One might say that self-preservation is not a logical choice, but rather an instinct.

So Christianity would be the one religion that flys in the face of your position.

It’s founder certainly was not motivated by self-preservation.

Not at all.

I was just responding to UW's suggestion that moral systems always begin with an a priori truth that comes from intuition, sentiment, or faith. I think morality can also originate from the instinct of self-preservation. As mankind evolved, they formed tribes, which required common values (or morals) to function.

So I'm not knocking Christianity, I'm just expressing the humanist view that we can derive our own morals and do not need adopt them from an external source.

5thhorseman wrote: ↑Wed Jan 15, 2025 6:23 pm

Mëds wrote: ↑Wed Jan 15, 2025 5:48 pm

5thhorseman wrote: ↑Wed Jan 15, 2025 1:39 pm The individual.

One might say that self-preservation is not a logical choice, but rather an instinct.

So Christianity would be the one religion that flys in the face of your position.

It’s founder certainly was not motivated by self-preservation.

Not at all.

I was just responding to UW's suggestion that moral systems always begin with an a priori truth that comes from intuition, sentiment, or faith. I think morality can also originate from the instinct of self-preservation. As mankind evolved, they formed tribes, which required common values (or morals) to function.

So I'm not knocking Christianity, I'm just expressing the humanist view that we can derive our own morals and do not need adopt them from an external sourcef.

Why self-preservation of the individual as the foundational principle? Why do you think logic requires that as a moral principle. What law of logic requires that to be valued?

UWSaint wrote: ↑Wed Jan 15, 2025 6:33 pm Why self-preservation of the individual as the foundational principle? Why do you think logic requires that as a moral principle. What law of logic requires that to be valued?

Thanks for your comments UW, you're prompting me to rethink this.

I guess my view is that there does not need to be an a priori truth about "good" or "right". An atheistic view of the world can be that there are no truths other than the physical world itself. So morality stems from one's instinct for self-preservation, leading to a shared set of community values derived thru reason (or logic, if you will).