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Megaterio Llamas wrote: ↑Mon Dec 16, 2024 12:44 pm With Peter's $11.6 going the other way, and with Cozens locked in at $7.1 for three more years there's the space to sign Boeser and Byram. The money would seem to work.

I'm finding today's trade speculation very heartening.

It is an interesting "potential trade." Sabres owner seem to want to get things moving on his side and Vancouver seems to have something off with their team.

As for those posters talking about a 1C coming back. I would argue that right now Miller plays like a 1C. Petey though has previously shown the potential to be a generational 1C. It is a huge risk trading him, I won't deny that, but depending on what would be coming back, it could be worth it.

theman wrote: ↑Mon Dec 16, 2024 11:58 am

Raile wrote: ↑Mon Dec 16, 2024 11:29 am

Megaterio Llamas wrote: ↑Mon Dec 16, 2024 11:12 am I like this Peter for Cozens and Byram idea of Friedman's very much. It is very interesting...

Does Cozens have potential for 1C? I don't really follow him or the Sabers much

He seems like a potential 2C, still young too. Byram looks like a decent D prospect but can he play the right side? Any potential Petey trade should bring back a top 6 forward, 1st rounder, an, ideally, RD and a blue chip prospect.

This rumoured Sabres stuff is interesting because it looks like two teams that would be down with a making a mid season blockbuster to get their players going.

Also, this is the last season where the Canucks could trade Pettersson without him having any say, correct?

I think you are very much overvaluing Pettersson in that return. He's struggling hard and the issues are primarily between the ears. You're banking on a change of scenery allowing him to dump the mental baggage and get back to just playing hockey.

Currently he is 26th in scoring among centermen. Among centermen with 15 or more games played he sits 149th in face-offs.

Because of his age there is still room for some growth and possible return to his 2022-23 form. That player is worth a mid-low 1st rounder and blue chip prospect (or a top-10 pick and middling prospect) AND a top-6 forward OR a top-4 D (preferably RSD).

Currently I think the Canucks would be doing well to get a good 2nd line center who can score 60+ points, a 10-20 overall pick, and good prospect. Either that or you take back a player who also needs that change of scenery and both teams gamble similarly.

You are indeed correct about this being the last season they can trade him without his say-so.

Megaterio Llamas wrote: ↑Mon Dec 16, 2024 12:44 pm With Peter's $11.6 going the other way, and with Cozens locked in at $7.1 for three more years there's the space to sign Boeser and Byram. The money would seem to work.

I'm finding today's trade speculation very heartening.

I agree Megs.
They say whoever gets the better player wins the trade, and in this case it would be Buffalo. But Petey's play has been trending downward for 10 months on a talented, well coached team. Might be a good time to cut bait & bail before his contract becomes a anchor.

Raile wrote: ↑Mon Dec 16, 2024 12:32 pm

theman wrote: ↑Mon Dec 16, 2024 11:58 am

Raile wrote: ↑Mon Dec 16, 2024 11:29 am

Megaterio Llamas wrote: ↑Mon Dec 16, 2024 11:12 am I like this Peter for Cozens and Byram idea of Friedman's very much. It is very interesting...

Does Cozens have potential for 1C? I don't really follow him or the Sabers much

He seems like a potential 2C, still young too. Byram looks like a decent D prospect but can he play the right side? Any potential Petey trade should bring back a top 6 forward, 1st rounder, an, ideally, RD and a blue chip prospect.

This rumoured Sabres stuff is interesting because it looks like two teams that would be down with a making a mid season blockbuster to get their players going.

Also, this is the last season where the Canucks could trade Pettersson without him having any say, correct?

hey theman, I don't believe Byram is a prospect, he's been in the league many years now. I don't think he's played AHL for 3 or so years.

but to my bigger point - I'm just wondering what the end game is here. I understand that Petey isn't playing well enough. But we came out of our rebuild because we'd found our 1C. We all agreed a 1C, a 1D and a vezina goalie were the 3 hardest things to get and it was decided we had those so we ended the rebuild.

Now whether Petey ultimately becomes a 1C or what we are getting this year is his peak.. I don't understand how its a moving forward plan to trade our 1C (planned/potential) for a plan with no 1C potential coming back. I don't expect we necessarily trade for a bonafide 1C, but it has to be someone with that potential, at least.

I just see all this chatter about trades with Pettersson as a plan moving toward us being a middling team for the rest of the decade until we finally pull the plug and go back to a rebuild (like many previous decades as a Nucks fan).

By "found our 1C" do you mean JT Miller?

2022-23 saw Pettersson play like a top 5 in the league 1C, at least in terms of point production.....iirc his overall game was also at that level for at least 75% of the year.

2023-24 saw Pettersson play like a top 20 1C in the league in terms of point production, however his overall game was not there, and he produced like a 3C for the last 30 games and like a 4C in the playoffs. His overall game down the stretch stunk.

We came out of the rebuild because of multiple factors, I think they gambled a bit after the way the team finished the season under Tocchet. They looked like a playoff team for the last 20 games but the hole was too deep.

Last season we were optimistically projecting that they could finish 3rd in the division but reasonably forecasting a wildcard spot. Boeser getting back to being Boeser, Hughes taking the next step, the addition of Hronek, Demko being good to go from October and not rehabbing an injury, and the Joshua-Blueger-Garland line, coupled with the entire team buying into Tocchet's 200 foot plan, caught the league by surprise and we won our division, finished 6th overall, and top 10 in both GF and Differential. During that season our 1C was clearly JT Miller, and our second best line was Joshua-Blueger-Garland for much of the year.....particularly the final stretch.

Keeping Pettersson is a gamble that he rights the ship and can be that 1C.....some of us don't see him being that guy. If he doesn't become that player then we have a boat anchor contract in one of the 2 most important positions on the team, the 1C and 1D. That's hard to overcome in a cap world.

Trading Petterson is a gamble that what we get back is either better now or in the very near future, OR equivalent now but salary cap friendly which allows for other key pieces to be added.

The last 10 months have seen us rolling the dice on the former, it's not a bad thought to say that it might be time to roll the other dice while management can still chuck the die on any table of their choosing. After July 2025 options are far more limited.

Raile wrote: ↑Mon Dec 16, 2024 12:33 pm

JelloPuddingPop wrote: ↑Mon Dec 16, 2024 12:27 pm

theman wrote: ↑Mon Dec 16, 2024 11:58 am

Raile wrote: ↑Mon Dec 16, 2024 11:29 am

Megaterio Llamas wrote: ↑Mon Dec 16, 2024 11:12 am I like this Peter for Cozens and Byram idea of Friedman's very much. It is very interesting...

Does Cozens have potential for 1C? I don't really follow him or the Sabers much

Any potential Petey trade should bring back a top 6 forward, 1st rounder, an, ideally, RD and a blue chip prospect.

I'd do that trade in a heartbeat, top 6, 1st rd pk, RD and a blue chipper.

That type of return puts him a Jack Eichel type trade camp. Top 6 (Tuch), 1st Rd Pick (Noah Ostlund), RD (Well, they got a C/LW) and a Blue Chipper (Krebs).

Not bad company there.

How did that work out for Buffalo?
Vegas turned around and won a cup with their 1C within.. 2 years?

If you look at Eichel's numbers, the big change was not his production, it is in his plus/minus. He went from a struggling team that couldn't keep pucks out of their own net, to a contender that was already a favourite before acquiring him.

Does Vegas (with Eichel) win that Cup without Mark Stone's 24 points in 22 playoff games? Without Stone miraculously returning from LTIR to start the playoffs at full health and at game ready speed the answer is likely a confident no.....and without that LTIR there would have been no way for Vegas to acquire Eichel under the salary cap without gutting other key parts.

So yeah, not a good comparison at all Raile.

theman wrote: ↑Mon Dec 16, 2024 12:55 pm
As for those posters talking about a 1C coming back. I would argue that right now Miller plays like a 1C. Petey though has previously shown the potential to be a generational 1C. It is a huge risk trading him, I won't deny that, but depending on what would be coming back, it could be worth it.

Maybe Miller is a 1C still this year.

I doubt he is next year (he'll be 33?).

The Canucks made an incredible trade for him in terms of getting value for what they sent back, but that was for a player who was much older than the core, and would always be a placeholder for Petey (or some other young potential 1C) until he was ready to take over and Miller hopefully be able to be a 2C for as long as possible through the core's peak years.

Miller as the 1C is a short term plan. (1-2 years?)

I’ve mentioned a Pettersson for Cozens trade before. I think there’s legitimacy there from Friedman.

Megaterio Llamas wrote: ↑Mon Dec 16, 2024 11:12 am I like this Peter for Cozens and Byram idea of Friedman's very much. It is very interesting...

I am a little surprised there is so much interest in the league with Cozens @ his current $7.1 million salary signed during his breakout season. The breakout? Offensively, similar to EP40's worst season (setting aside the injury riddled no-fans season). No doubt the Sabres thought they were getting a deal on that contract because a young Cozens would surely improve. Right?

Last year he measurably declined and if it were possible to take a step back this year, he has. He is inconsistent game in an game out. While he plays many situations, I wouldn't classify him as particularly notable at any. He's not great in the dot. This year, I'm not sure he's more effective at helping his team score and keeping pucks out of net than, say, Pius Suter. Of course Cozens has more upside and is an okay bet to return to it -- but its not a safe bet.

Media likes his leadershipnessness, but if he's a leader, he's a Horvat leader, but more inconsistent. Like the Horvat captained Canucks, though, the Sabres seem like a bunch of headcases whose results and performance lag their talent.

Don't get me wrong -- I like the player overall, I just think he is as or more likely to underperform his contract than overperform it. Sound familiar?

This interest in Cozens is a reminder that people get anchored by previous conceptions and are slow to update them. Cozens played in 2022-23 like the Sabres envisioned when they drafted him in 2019. He's not that player now. People who track the Canucks know EP40 has taken a step back, but they don't realize that the take-a-step thing happens all over the league. Fans are quick to update perceptions of their own players, slower to update their perceptions of other teams' players.

UW, agree this isn't WJC Cozens.

While taking rumours, say that it was Powers that Vancouver wants. Is there room for Powers and Dahlen? Is there room for Hughes and Powers?

Is Vancouver management on a rental again ala Zedotov?

UWSaint wrote: ↑Tue Dec 17, 2024 7:30 am

Megaterio Llamas wrote: ↑Mon Dec 16, 2024 11:12 am I like this Peter for Cozens and Byram idea of Friedman's very much. It is very interesting...

I am a little surprised there is so much interest in the league with Cozens @ his current $7.1 million salary signed during his breakout season. The breakout? Offensively, similar to EP40's worst season (setting aside the injury riddled no-fans season). No doubt the Sabres thought they were getting a deal on that contract because a young Cozens would surely improve. Right?

Last year he measurably declined and if it were possible to take a step back this year, he has. He is inconsistent game in an game out. While he plays many situations, I wouldn't classify him as particularly notable at any. He's not great in the dot. This year, I'm not sure he's more effective at helping his team score and keeping pucks out of net than, say, Pius Suter. Of course Cozens has more upside and is an okay bet to return to it -- but its not a safe bet.

Media likes his leadershipnessness, but if he's a leader, he's a Horvat leader, but more inconsistent. Like the Horvat captained Canucks, though, the Sabres seem like a bunch of headcases whose results and performance lag their talent.

Don't get me wrong -- I like the player overall, I just think he is as or more likely to underperform his contract than overperform it. Sound familiar?

This interest in Cozens is a reminder that people get anchored by previous conceptions and are slow to update them. Cozens played in 2022-23 like the Sabres envisioned when they drafted him in 2019. He's not that player now. People who track the Canucks know EP40 has taken a step back, but they don't realize that the take-a-step thing happens all over the league. Fans are quick to update perceptions of their own players, slower to update their perceptions of other teams' players.

With the caveat being I haven't watched him play enough, I don't get the interest in Cozens and not sure what extra value Byram brings given his concussion history and the fact that he is a RFA?

If I'm the Canucks and they get a phone call from Buffalo inquiring about Pettersson, I'd begin the conversation asking for Tage Thompson in return as the centre piece in a deal....

Add other pieces to even out the deal, but other than Thompson not sure what Buffalo can offer in a deal for Pettersson unless they want to put Dahlin on the table...

If the deal is for Thompson, I can see the Canucks needing to add, if the deal is for Dahlin I can see the Sabres needing to add...

Take care...

Topper wrote: ↑Tue Dec 17, 2024 8:07 am UW, agree this isn't WJC Cozens.

While taking rumours, say that it was Powers that Vancouver wants. Is there room for Powers and Dahlen? Is there room for Hughes and Powers?

Is Vancouver management on a rental again ala Zedotov?

If the "room for" question is of cap space, I haven't given it any thought. If the question is "ice time" room -- maybe, but I think the Canucks would run into the same situation Buffalo is in. The thing about defensemen with offensive potential is that you pay the premium for an ability and then never deploy it on a first unit power play unless you are running two D. In an realistic world, you'd have Hughes as a #1 running the power play and your top 4 is filled out with two-way guys (like a Hronek type) or defensive stalwarts.

Powers has the potential, IMO, to be a true #1D.

I'm totally fine with a rental if the price is cheap as it was for Zadorov (who, IMO, was really a 4-5). But I am always up for improving the top 4 longer term. As it stands, the Canucks have a #1, an injured #2-3, two #4-5s, and everyone else is a #6-7 or worse. But the Canucks are also fairly thin -- there's not a position of depth that's obvious to deal from in the NHL and the prospect group is fairly weak.

UWSaint wrote: ↑Tue Dec 17, 2024 7:30 am

Megaterio Llamas wrote: ↑Mon Dec 16, 2024 11:12 am I like this Peter for Cozens and Byram idea of Friedman's very much. It is very interesting...

I am a little surprised there is so much interest in the league with Cozens @ his current $7.1 million salary signed during his breakout season. The breakout? Offensively, similar to EP40's worst season (setting aside the injury riddled no-fans season). No doubt the Sabres thought they were getting a deal on that contract because a young Cozens would surely improve. Right?

Last year he measurably declined and if it were possible to take a step back this year, he has. He is inconsistent game in an game out. While he plays many situations, I wouldn't classify him as particularly notable at any. He's not great in the dot. This year, I'm not sure he's more effective at helping his team score and keeping pucks out of net than, say, Pius Suter. Of course Cozens has more upside and is an okay bet to return to it -- but its not a safe bet.

Media likes his leadershipnessness, but if he's a leader, he's a Horvat leader, but more inconsistent. Like the Horvat captained Canucks, though, the Sabres seem like a bunch of headcases whose results and performance lag their talent.

Don't get me wrong -- I like the player overall, I just think he is as or more likely to underperform his contract than overperform it. Sound familiar?

This interest in Cozens is a reminder that people get anchored by previous conceptions and are slow to update them. Cozens played in 2022-23 like the Sabres envisioned when they drafted him in 2019. He's not that player now. People who track the Canucks know EP40 has taken a step back, but they don't realize that the take-a-step thing happens all over the league. Fans are quick to update perceptions of their own players, slower to update their perceptions of other teams' players.

I'm looking to get out from under that 11.6 contract for seven more years UW. I guess I'm willing to take a risk on players like Cozens and Byam potentially benefiting from a change in scenery ie. getting out of Buffalo which seems to be an almost uniquely bad environment.

I get that Cozen's regression a familiar problem, if we could improve on the return without retaining millions of dollars I would be all for that of course.

Sticking with Buffalo as a trade partner. Hearing about Bryam's concussion history, that would concern me. Who are Buffalo's RD? Would love to get Dahlin or Power back in any Petey trade, but could either play RD? I am focusing on RD as the Canucks seem to be extremely thin there.

There is a chance Cozens could come out of his funk he seems to be in. Also, the Sabres are taking a risk as well, let’s not forget, you all have been complaining about Peteys game since early spring of last year. At $11.6 and with a much criticized current game, the risks are shared equally by both teams. Which is why some see it as a fit…a la a change of scenery may do both some good.

Power and a top forward prospect is also an intriguing option. The Sabres are loaded with young forwards and prospects - Kulich, Helenius, Rosen, Ostlund, Benson, Quinn, Krebs.

Power and Benson for Petey

Craig Button weas just touting Cozens on D&D this morning. Thinks he's on a good contract.

I agree with Chef that it's a risky trade both ways, losing that 11,6 on the cap for 8 years is big imho.