We're All Doomed!™ (the Conquest, War, Famine, and Death Thread)

The primary goal of this site is to provide mature, meaningful discussion about the Vancouver Canucks. However, we all need a break some time so this forum is basically for anything off-topic, off the wall, or to just get something off your chest! This forum is named after poster Creeper, who passed away in July of 2011 and was a long time member of the Canucks message board community.

Moderators: donlever, Referees

User avatar
UWSaint
MVP
MVP
Posts: 1071
Joined: Thu Jul 14, 2011 5:37 pm

Re: We're All Doomed!™ (the Conquest, War, Famine, and Death Thread)

Post by UWSaint »

Cousin Strawberry wrote: Thu Mar 26, 2026 11:38 am UW I would like to think that despite all of the trump admins bluster that there i some sort of an agenda but sadly I (and many, many others) believe he ismore likely a 300 lb infant who wants to make a legacy akin to the Monroe doctrine. There are some who think he sees a world map and thinks it "might be cool" to absorb what he perceives to be a giant piece of real estate (which appears distortionally large due to map scaling)

He's strongly resembles a narcissistic megalomaniac who has zero tact or respect for anyone else whatsoever. What else can the world think given everything he has said and done the past 14 months???
I think your view is commonly held, possibly correct, and totally unhelpful because it is used an excuse not to figure out what's going on. And on a hockey talk board, we don't have to figure anything out, so that's not a criticism of you. But the allies and adversaries of the United States (and neutrals who trade with the US or are being pushed to be one or the other) need to figure it out. Too often, those leaders (and moreso the "opinion makers" in their countries) toss their hands up in the air that it is all unpredictable meglomania and they miss an opportunity to promote or protect their interests. If there is no rationale, than it doesn't matter what you do. But if there *is* a rationale, it does. So every prime minister and foreign office should operate with the assumption that there's a thread (which if not uniform, is not random) to Trump's actions and figure it out.

And FWIW, I think there are a few clear rationales and patterns.

(1) Trump has a "realism" foreign policy framework, that nations act in their own self-interest, and knows that this is true of Russia and China, and believes this is the way the world works whether people say it or not. He has limited tolerance for idealism in foreign policy, and thinks the Europeans have exposed themselves because they care more about what they say than what they do -- and they do things that are not aligned with what they say. To Trump, do reveals more than say.

This doesn't mean everything is predictable -- people can look at the same problem through the lens of foreign policy realism and come to different answers about what they should do or how another nation will respond. There may be information asymmetry, different risk tolerances, etc.

FWIW, I think Trump is largely right about the lens, though I don't agree with each of his actions or decisions.

(2) Trump is not precious, precise, or polite about the tools that he uses to achieve his ends. The do matters, the ends matter, the means -- there are limitations (until Iran, I think his resume was pretty strongly that he strongly preferred non-military means to achieving the ends, and that the use of the military was primarily to let others know that it can be used so that it might be used less the next time it seems like a possible option). When Trump threatened to leave NATO in the first term, so many pulled out their hair -- but he got nations (except Canada) to commit 2% of their GDP to defense. No one but the US was there in 2017, IIRC. And this go around, commitments have gone up again. NATO is stronger and getting in stronger in "do" while the "blah blah" is that the alliance is frayed. Which do you prefer -- an alliance that can execute its military mission which is is full of stressed relations because so much of getting there was do to impoliteness, coercion, and fear-based persuasion, or one where everyone is all snuggly together while Russia invades and has an arsenal of "We condemn their actions!"

(3) Trump uses every strategy in the Art of the Deal or any other book on negotiations. And he doesn't do it honorably. Example, you can have a deal and it can be nudged once you are desparate for it. He also stakes out extraordinary demands to anchor a favorable position so that the compromise is much closer to what you could have achieved with a more modest opener. Not every situation is a negotiation, and not every negotiation starts with "we are going to negotiate about this," but the quicker people realize this is what's going on, the more likely they are not to get frazzled -- no one is invading Greenland! (but it is on the table -- because it is a truism that there are circumstances that could arise between nations in which you use your military, so it is always on the table). And more than not getting frazzled, in any typical negotiation the moment you spot your opponent trying to establish an unreasonable anchor, you know the true range is much closer to your position than you might otherwise think.

(4) He is susceptible to flattery. Its so obvious -- Mark Ruuta (NATO Secretary, don't know the spelling) gets it, why don't others? Its because they are as vain as Trump, but in their own way. And while Trump can't help his own vanity, he does know how to use others' vanity against them, whether that's through flattery or embarrassment.

The common retort to this kind of thing is something like you can always post-hoc rationalize irrational acts. Maybe, but see the first point -- it only matters if is rational. But more than that, we've had 5+ years with Trump as a President, and the same pattern arises over and over. So maybe there's something to it?
Hono_rary Canadian
User avatar
2Fingers
MVP
MVP
Posts: 2481
Joined: Wed Jan 04, 2012 7:47 am

Re: We're All Doomed!™ (the Conquest, War, Famine, and Death Thread)

Post by 2Fingers »

UW - I believe you are partially wrong about Canada.

As per AI but I knew over the past year that it seemed we were finally getting there.

All I can say is that it is about effing time, I have posted things here before about the military as my dad was in it for 25 years and we were all born in different provinces. I have hated what the governments have done over the past 25 years to get it to where it is now. The pacifists that live in a never never land is crazy to think we should not be able to defend ourselves even with NATO's support.
As of March 26, 2026, Canada has officially met the NATO defense spending target of 2% of its Gross Domestic Product (GDP). This marks the first time Canada has reached this benchmark since the end of the Cold War in the late 1980s.

Current Military Spending Status
Total Expenditure: Canada is now spending approximately $63.5 billion annually on defense.

Historical Context: Spending rose significantly from 1.31% in 2024 and 1.47% in early 2025 following an injection of an additional $9.3 billion to the defense budget.

Method of Achievement: The target was reached through:

1 - Major Personnel Investment: Significant pay raises for Canadian Armed Forces (CAF) members, ranging from 8% to 20%.
2 - Internal Reorganization: Moving agencies like the Canadian Coast Guard under the Department of National Defence to count toward the NATO target.
3 - Procurement: Increased spending on recruitment, retention, and new equipment like aircraft and armored vehicles.

Future Spending Targets
1 - 5% GDP Pledge: Prime Minister Mark Carney has committed Canada to a new NATO target of 5% of GDP by 2035.
2 - Estimated Cost: Reaching the 5% mark is projected to cost Canadian taxpayers approximately $150 billion annually.
3 - Focus Areas: Future investments will prioritize Arctic sovereignty, domestic industrial capacity through the new Defence Investment Agency, and reducing reliance on U.S. military technology.

Economic Impact
1 - Jobs: The defense sector accounts for roughly 36,000 direct jobs and over 61,000 jobs across the entire value chain.
2 - R&D: Military spending is highly research-intensive, with $440 million invested in 2022, primarily by the industry itself.
User avatar
Topper
CC Legend
Posts: 8065
Joined: Wed Sep 15, 2004 8:11 pm
Location: Earth, most days.

Re: We're All Doomed!™ (the Conquest, War, Famine, and Death Thread)

Post by Topper »

UW, yesterday the Canadian government claims to have met the 2% NATO threshold. Much of it through book keeping.

They finally gave the military a long overdue pay raise
They have included the Coast Guard
They have included Transport Canada

There are several procurement items in the works but those are notoriously delayed by political winds of the day. Stephan Harper chose the F-35 to replace the aging F-18. Trudeau cancelled the F-35 and relaunched a competition. Ten years later the F-35 was again chosen while buying used F-18's from Australia as the Aussie began use of their F-35 replacements. Carney has decided to have another look at the Griffen vs the F-35. This is typical of our procurement process whether it be side arms, helicopter or submarines.
Over the Internet, you can pretend to be anyone or anything.

I'm amazed that so many people choose to be complete twats.
User avatar
UWSaint
MVP
MVP
Posts: 1071
Joined: Thu Jul 14, 2011 5:37 pm

Re: We're All Doomed!™ (the Conquest, War, Famine, and Death Thread)

Post by UWSaint »

2Fingers wrote: Thu Mar 26, 2026 2:41 pm UW - I believe you are partially wrong about Canada.
As of March 26, 2026, Canada has officially met the NATO defense spending target of 2% of its Gross Domestic Product (GDP). This marks the first time Canada has reached this benchmark since the end of the Cold War in the late 1980s.

Current Military Spending Status
Total Expenditure: Canada is now spending approximately $63.5 billion annually on defense.

Historical Context: Spending rose significantly from 1.31% in 2024 and 1.47% in early 2025 following an injection of an additional $9.3 billion to the defense budget.
Yeah, I was unaware of this if true. In a year? The 1.47% was the last I heard.
Hono_rary Canadian
User avatar
UWSaint
MVP
MVP
Posts: 1071
Joined: Thu Jul 14, 2011 5:37 pm

Re: We're All Doomed!™ (the Conquest, War, Famine, and Death Thread)

Post by UWSaint »

Topper wrote: Thu Mar 26, 2026 2:52 pm UW, yesterday the Canadian government claims to have met the 2% NATO threshold. Much of it through book keeping.

They finally gave the military a long overdue pay raise
They have included the Coast Guard
They have included Transport Canada

There are several procurement items in the works but those are notoriously delayed by political winds of the day. Stephan Harper chose the F-35 to replace the aging F-18. Trudeau cancelled the F-35 and relaunched a competition. Ten years later the F-35 was again chosen while buying used F-18's from Australia as the Aussie began use of their F-35 replacements. Carney has decided to have another look at the Griffen vs the F-35. This is typical of our procurement process whether it be side arms, helicopter or submarines.
Well that's not nothing (I don't know what Transport Canada is), but pay raises should theoretically improve recruitment and the coast guard is not a too terrible of a stretch.

But that F-35 story? Please.... The intent isn't to spend the funds on cancelled orders, procurement costs, and other sunk costs....

Every time you have to go through mountains of red tape to get a project done, remember that the government doesn't even allow itself to do things.

In the US, I sense there is a strong correlation between states where you can get stuff done and state that grow.... Regs and tape are like barnacles -- at some point you can't see the whale, and they are just growing on themselves and have forgotten anything is attached to the whale at all.

Not saying you don't need some of it, but government, like all monopolies, has no incentive to provide a good customer experience....
Hono_rary Canadian
User avatar
Cousin Strawberry
MVP
MVP
Posts: 9435
Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2011 10:19 pm
Location: in the shed with a fresh packed bowl

Re: We're All Doomed!™ (the Conquest, War, Famine, and Death Thread)

Post by Cousin Strawberry »

UW the argument that the US has paid for the "protection" of NATO members is a flawed one that has been debated. The US wasn't performing charity protection services, they were forwarding their own goals utilizing allied bases and infrastructure to cover the globe, particularly the middle east and eastern Europe.

I personally think Canada should purchase the pre-ordered F35 AND the gryphons. Why can't we train pilots on 2 platforms?? (This was the argument against a mixed fleet)

What is becoming more and more obvious is that portable/inexpensive drones are the future. Sink some dough into this.
If you need air...call it in
User avatar
Topper
CC Legend
Posts: 8065
Joined: Wed Sep 15, 2004 8:11 pm
Location: Earth, most days.

Re: We're All Doomed!™ (the Conquest, War, Famine, and Death Thread)

Post by Topper »

Maintenance (parts inventory, training) of a small mixed fleet is the issue. Even airlines don't mix pilots between type of aircraft.
Over the Internet, you can pretend to be anyone or anything.

I'm amazed that so many people choose to be complete twats.
User avatar
Cousin Strawberry
MVP
MVP
Posts: 9435
Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2011 10:19 pm
Location: in the shed with a fresh packed bowl

Re: We're All Doomed!™ (the Conquest, War, Famine, and Death Thread)

Post by Cousin Strawberry »

Apparently the Gryphon is suited to remote cold weather deployment where they don't need proper runways or expensive gear to maintain the aircraft. They are easy to service and rearm. They are quicker to get airborne.

Considering the vastness of the area we are looking to cover properly, wouldn't it be prudent to place those aircraft across the far north and centralize the more advanced f35s?
If you need air...call it in
User avatar
UWSaint
MVP
MVP
Posts: 1071
Joined: Thu Jul 14, 2011 5:37 pm

Re: We're All Doomed!™ (the Conquest, War, Famine, and Death Thread)

Post by UWSaint »

Cousin Strawberry wrote: Thu Mar 26, 2026 3:43 pm UW the argument that the US has paid for the "protection" of NATO members is a flawed one that has been debated. The US wasn't performing charity protection services, they were forwarding their own goals utilizing allied bases and infrastructure to cover the globe, particularly the middle east and eastern Europe.

I personally think Canada should purchase the pre-ordered F35 AND the gryphons. Why can't we train pilots on 2 platforms?? (This was the argument against a mixed fleet)

What is becoming more and more obvious is that portable/inexpensive drones are the future. Sink some dough into this.
Oh I didn't describe it as charity work. What I said is that there is a fairness element, that the US carried more of a load than its allies (in both volume -- its a huge country, but also proportion). (I also had that as secondary reason for enhancing NATO effectiveness through NATO countries spending, not the primary reason). I have no doubt that the USA's effectiveness as a power was enhanced also by its alliances -- that's what allegiances do (besides get nations wrapped up in their allies' battles....). This is why the US is part of these alliances -- but that's also why when the US raises question about "but what are we getting from it today," its a question to take really seriously. Especially in a world where the progressive leaders can't appeal to "preserving common cultural heritage" because they are ashamed of it. But as importantly, this is also why other nations ally with the US -- because they get something out of it. And if one nation is getting more than another, there's always potential to rebalance yet maintain the alliance.

Also I think the US as a super power (militarily) does not benefit the US. It is a responsibility, taken on with mixed feelings, not a unmitigated privilege -- and I don't know that other nations recognize this. Setting aside its own 19th century territorial expansion, the US had little imperial presence pre-WWII and had a strong isolationist sentiment. The post WWI League of Nations is sometimes credited as President Wilson's idea -- but the US never joined. There are countless international accords the US never ratified. And I think many Americans would prefer a world where this world power wasn't our nation's role -- to be sure, we'd want a benevolent hegemon ally who left us alone mostly, but you know. I mean consider this question -- would you want Canada to have the United States' role and responsibility? I don't ask it because I know or think there's a right answer, but I think most people from most other nations wouldn't -- unless they were seriously under another nation's thumb (including the US). And I think most immigrants to America don't come because it is a military might, but because it offers other things.

So why is the US a super power? Because if the US is not a hegemon or super power, another nation will be. That's how the US signed up for the job to begin with. And due to WW2's destruction of Europe and European empires, it was the US or no one to counter the expansionist Soviet Union -- but it would of course be more effective if it was the US + allies. And the question other nations have to ask now is not "is the US doing the job we think it should do as a hegemon," but "would I rather have them as the greatest military force in the world or someone else or will it be me." Most countries don't have the "me" option, realistically. And when the US answers with "me," it is the same as answering "the US." And so it is. And part of the reason that another nation might choose the US is that if they can be allied with the US, it gets them protection, sure on top of what they provide themselves, but its overwhelming with the US. But not just because the US sends in the tanks and the whole marines -- it rarely does -- but because the possibility that it might is an enormous deterrence. It remains so, however, only so long as the United States builds this huge military machine -- and so that's a heavy heavy price to the US and its citizens (and, since I am not a Keynesian, a drag on its economy -- unless we can turn that into foreign countries buying US Manufactured bombs and stuff -- which is clearly a part of the increased NATO spending motivation, though not the primary part IMO).

Once the answer to the question is "the US, we'd rather have them be hegemon", then everything that the US does to increase the effectiveness of its force is to the benefit of not just the US, but everyone who answered the question that way. Because it helps maintain the hegemony. Whether the US demands more from those in the alliance -- well that's really just a input to the really big question -- under the new terms, is it the US or someone else. Whether the US *should* demand more even if they can get away with it and preserve the alliance? That's a normative question, and I think one that the US will try to answer reasonably because it is imperfect but oriented that way. Still, this isn't answered by a neutral arbitrator. It is answered by the US.

Also this post is an attempt at being descriptive, not normative. Whether it should be this way, well, I will leave that to the globalists, neo-cons, and other idealists to answer.
Hono_rary Canadian
User avatar
Meds
MVP
MVP
Posts: 5574
Joined: Mon Jul 11, 2011 8:50 pm

Re: We're All Doomed!™ (the Conquest, War, Famine, and Death Thread)

Post by Meds »

Topper wrote: Thu Mar 26, 2026 2:52 pm They have included Transport Canada
I had not heard that last part. Fucking hilarious.

The Liberals.....Canada's natural governing party are naturally continuing the tradition of making Canada an ever increasing farce.
Somewhere in NW BC trying (yet again) to trade a(nother) Swede…..
Post Reply