Tanking

[Cornuck]

Losing sucks. And this team is going to lose a LOT over the next year.

How we got to this point had been discussed in multiple threads, but here we are.

Getting a high pick and potential franchise player is the silver lining.

As fans, we need that silver lining to stay involved. Start following the draft, the kid(s) we might pick and take some of the stong from losing most nights.

BUT... were not confident that there's an actual plan past drafting a good prospect. I agree with Topper's statement about how management is selling their lack of vision as a 'plan' for tanking.

[Hockey Widow]

Ya it’s hard to argue that they have a plan. They are reactive. They are delusional. They knew Hughes was gone, or highly suspected it, at least 18 months ago. Instead of thinking about a rebuild then they doubled down on trying to make moves that might induce Hughes to stay.

They have no real plan.

[Lancer]

I don't know if it was lack of vision, or their vision being predicated on shit that turned out just wasn't real. As Corn says, it's been debated ad nauseam, and here we are. If anything, they're papering over the fact the core they thought was ready for contention went Chernobyl on them. Trading Hughes was the final public admission that it was done - time to start over.

The Canucks don't have to try to tank - they are just that bad. Goaltending has gone from a strength to a boat anchor (while Silovs gets wins on the Olympic stage). The defence isn't that bad, but not having Hughes around has exposed just how much he papered over their failings. The forwards are an island of misfit toys - with Kampf spending stretches as the #2 C.

Cootes, with in- and off-season development from Lekk, Willander and the Hughes returns may add a win or two next year but no one should delude themselves that any of these young players will be anything more than supporting cast once this team turns around. They're all pretty much rookies save for Rossi, but none of them have popped the way Hughes or even Pettersson did in their rookie years. These kids aren't stars and likely won't be. Hopefully they turn out to be useful depth parts.

All to say, I don't think we have to worry about this crew occupying the mushy middle in the near-term.

If there is a silver lining, it's that club's drafting record has been better than it was before. The fact we are seeing the likes of D. Petey and Hoglander contributing - albeit sparingly at times - gives me cause for optimism that Vancouver will be able to get some gems and building pieces after the 1st or 2nd round of the draft.

It's what management does when the team starts turning around that has me worried.

[rockalt]

Yes, I think the NBA is taking the right approach (assuming they will actually back up their words). The system needs to change and stop rewarding incompetence.

It has taken me a long time to become accustomed to the relegation concept but it actually makes a lot of sense. Teams are massively incentivized to stay competitive enough to avoid relegation. Having said this I don't think that's a realistic option for the major North American sports, so I'm not sure what the best solution is - as much as I appreciate the suggestion earlier in this thread to give the #1 pick to the 17th placed team, I think that would make it too hard to escape the basement and would create downward spirals for franchises. We need to find a delicate balance where effective management is awarded but teams aren't trapped in a perennial period of absolute no hope.

I think the best option is probably to have a 2 tier lottery with evenish odds. You could restrict the top 16 picks to non-playoff team but have equal weighting for all teams and then repeat the same for the playoff teams. This means that bubble teams would either have the incentive at extra playoff revenue or a longshot at the #1.... in this case the guaranteed revenue is probably worth more to them. It also means the absolutely dogshit teams are still drafting in the top 16 every year and still have a shot at a top 5 pick.

That's just my initial thought without putting too much thought into this.

Now having said all this, I don't think this team is tanking and even if they were, sign me up Topper! Given the current rules of the league I will take this approach 1000x over having to listen to Jimbo sell me on a re-tool and trade away the future for reclamation projects!

[donlever]

The relegation approach unfortunately allows owners like Aquilini to create mid as their business model.

Canuck fans are frenetically collapsing about losing our status in the upcoming draft.

Can you imagine if the chances were further minimized in the 17 - 32 approach?

The end would be nigh indeed....

[Carl Yagro]

The relegation approach unfortunately allows owners like Aquilini to create mid as their business model.

The Mushyocrity Model forever...

When has this franchise ever deliberately tanked? Never... and that's not due to some moralistic values. This regime went from "remaining competitive" at the beginning of the year to "rebuild with a hybrid form" to bottoming out so badly that they were forced to finally hang up "open for business" signs. These fucking guys are flopping like dying fish on a boat.

Second paragraph not aimed at Leves.

[dbr]

Relegation has to mean the end of the draft and lots of other changes as well, it's a complete pipe dream.

A tempting one, though: imagine a league where probably, the 7 Canadian teams (whose national broadcast deal brings in approximately the same amount as 25 US team's national deal does even accounting for exchange rates) compete with 9-13 US teams with another 20 team league underneath it that would be AHL/NHL tweener quality, and another league below that of AHL/ECHL tweener quality. Probably no more half billion dollar expansion fees, though. Certainly no more farm teams, although players could be loaned to any other team for development purposes.

But - no member of the cartel of NHL owners would never allow for the possibility that sporting failure would massively impact their bottom line, so instead we get a closed system, sports welfare and losing is mostly only a problem for the marketing department. And Topper.

[Topper]

Topic - Tanking

Example - whatan other league is doing about it

Discussion - yet another thread of canuck competence to tank

As I said Donny, why bother?

[theman]

Regarding tanking, I have always thought all non playoff teams should have equal chance at landing the top pick. After that, they go by reverse order of how they finished in the regular season.

If the team that won the lottery missed out on the playoffs by 1 point, so be it. Realistically, how often would that happen anyway?

[Cornuck]

It seems baseball has taken steps, but they are in a different situation with 'small market' teams.

The NFL doesn't have a lottery, so shittiest team drafts first.

Seems the NBA is similar to the NHL.

MLB

Draft Lottery: Introduced in 2023, the draft lottery prevents the worst team from guaranteed first-pick, reducing the incentive to lose.
Consecutive Draft Pick Restrictions: Small-market teams cannot receive a top-six pick in consecutive years, and revenue-sharing teams are limited in how often they can draft in the top six.
Draft Pick Trade Prohibition: Teams cannot trade draft picks, preventing the hoarding of picks via selling players.
Competitive Balance Incentives: Extra picks are awarded to small-market or low-revenue teams that make the playoffs, encouraging competition over intentional losing.

[Hockey Widow]

Nothing should be done to change the system until after we have had a chance to draft top 3 for 2-3 years. Then make all the changes you want!!

Its a hard balance. You have teams on both spectrums, those that are good and try every year and those that just suck year after year and maybe once in 10 years get on a run. Everyone else is in the mushy middle. What top team has not benefited from sucking for years and being rewarded with high draft picks? How do you change that to make it more ????? More what?

Maybe its time to eliminate the draft. Put restrictions on the number of 18 year olds you can sign in one year. The ELC has evened out a number of issues. Let teams compete for top prospects on what they can offer, other than money. July first would be a lot more exciting if teams now got to compete for signing top prospects. But as I said, you would have to have some form of restrictions as to how many you could sign each summer. Otherwise the rich teams, and the popular cities would clean up. Fewer players would end up with NHL contracts or be property of a team for X years. I dunno.

[Meds]

But this thread is about Topper seeing who here is wiping their chins and asking for more

I don’t think anyone here is in that category.

I think we are all agreed that the Rutherford, Allvin and Sandwich Grabbers management group fucked this up 8 days a week since 2023.

I’d say at worst we are guilty of being optimistic about the potential consolation prize that the NHL rewards losers with.

I can’t think of anyone here who wants these clowns in charge of what comes next.

And certainly we are agreed that the best thing that could happen to this organization is for Aqualini to sell it.

[Meds]

I am fine with the Canucks tanking this and next year but I also want to see them make smart long term roster moves. Problem is, I like most of you, have no faith on this management group or ownership.

It’s nice to hear that you like most of us, and also that you have a problem with it.

Oh wait…..I read that with too much emphasis on punctuation.

[Meds]

I wonder if Topper would be happy with the team tanking under new management of which he approves.

Or does he despise management and tanking equally.

His problem is the sell job on it.

Lipstick on a pig and all that rot.

Nobody is under any delusion here that this group is anything more than a bottom 3 roster on paper. Even with a healthy Demko playing to his best this group doesn’t have a snowball’s chance, imesho, of finishing higher than 25th.

Missing Pieces

1C
1D
1W x 2
1G
3D

Questionable Pieces

3C
3/4W x 2
5D

The team is exactly where it should be in the standings.

Go back 24 months and the only missing piece is a top 6 winger and probably a 4/5 dman.

[Cousin Strawberry]

The concept of embracing tanking is essentially becoming comfortable with being celebrated losers and I agree with Tops that this is shame worthy

The problem is that markets that did, in fact, embrace it almost always enjoy the fruits of their labours whereas principled outfits that refuse to walk down that dark and uncomfortable path end up like the Canucks...mired in mediocrity for all of eternity