We're All Doomed!™ (the Conquest, War, Famine, and Death Thread)

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Re: We're All Doomed!™ (the Conquest, War, Famine, and Death Thread)

Post by Cornuck »

Mëds wrote: Sat Jun 19, 2021 9:04 pm You do realize that we are literally living IN a phase 3 trial right now. The way these vaccines were rushed and things accelerated with models and assumptions.....they literally were only given approval because of an emergency situation. Go look at the length of typical phase 3 trials.....
Obviously long term effects have not been studied - and were the vaccines 'rushed' or just had a shit-ton of people working on them on with advanced tech?

The Pfizer phase 3 trial was with 43,000 people. A typical Phase 3 trial might have 3000 people, but studied longer.
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Re: We're All Doomed!™ (the Conquest, War, Famine, and Death Thread)

Post by Cousin Strawberry »

The entire global scientific and medical communities united to produce these vaccines. I doubt there has ever been a more thoroughly scrutinized product ever produced in the history of man
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Re: We're All Doomed!™ (the Conquest, War, Famine, and Death Thread)

Post by Meds »

AstraZeneca out of favour in North America because of blood clot issue.....

As of May 13 there had been 2.3 million doses of AZ given in Canada with 28 cases of blood clots being reported.

Latest findings show that the risk of a clot goes down considerably when looking at the 2nd dose of AZ.

Pfizer and Moderna both reporting increasing cases of myocarditis in people under the age of 30. As of June 10 226 cases confirmed and another 250+ being investigated. In Israel they reported 275 cases after having vaccinated a little over 5 million people. Chop those in half to get down to the 2.3 million AZ shots with 28 cases of blood clots and you're still at nearly 5 times the risk.

The CDC released a report on June 10th that shows that in the 16-7 year old age range the observed cases of myocarditis/pericarditis were 4 times the expected, and in the 18-24 year old range they observed over double the expected. 25-39 was right in the middle of the expected range.....although the range was rather broad, 23-228, lol.

But now we're saying give this thing to everyone? Hey, you survived your first dose of AstraZeneca with no clot, let's give you this one and see if you'll end up with myocarditis or pericarditis.
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Re: We're All Doomed!™ (the Conquest, War, Famine, and Death Thread)

Post by Cousin Strawberry »

Mëds wrote: Sun Jun 20, 2021 9:17 am AstraZeneca out of favour in North America because of blood clot issue.....

As of May 13 there had been 2.3 million doses of AZ given in Canada with 28 cases of blood clots being reported.

Latest findings show that the risk of a clot goes down considerably when looking at the 2nd dose of AZ.

Pfizer and Moderna both reporting increasing cases of myocarditis in people under the age of 30. As of June 10 226 cases confirmed and another 250+ being investigated. In Israel they reported 275 cases after having vaccinated a little over 5 million people. Chop those in half to get down to the 2.3 million AZ shots with 28 cases of blood clots and you're still at nearly 5 times the risk.

The CDC released a report on June 10th that shows that in the 16-7 year old age range the observed cases of myocarditis/pericarditis were 4 times the expected, and in the 18-24 year old range they observed over double the expected. 25-39 was right in the middle of the expected range.....although the range was rather broad, 23-228, lol.

But now we're saying give this thing to everyone? Hey, you survived your first dose of AstraZeneca with no clot, let's give you this one and see if you'll end up with myocarditis or pericarditis.
Dont all vaccines, including things like tetanus, mumps, measels, pox, etc all have similar or higher rates of side effects though?

Its just the way she goes Mëds
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Re: We're All Doomed!™ (the Conquest, War, Famine, and Death Thread)

Post by Meds »

5thhorseman wrote: Sat Jun 19, 2021 9:49 pm
Mëds wrote: Sat Jun 19, 2021 9:04 pm So you're OK with brand new and comparatively untested, but old drugs that have been studied and approved, with well established side effects etc., being used for off-label treatments is not an acceptable thing. Ok.....
Yeah, good point. I understand using drugs off-label as I do it with my animals from time to time (usually antibiotics), though I don't know how accepted a practice that is with humans. But why would you use a drug off-label with unknown efficacy when you have a vaccine with 85-95% efficacy? And back to my earlier question, if using Ivermectin or hydroxychloroquine is so effective, why wouldn't a manufacturer go through the necessary steps to get it approved and cash in? What company wouldn't want that additional cash flow?
Accepted practice in humans? Lol! Ever heard of aspirin?

Hydroxychloroquine was initially put out as an antimalarial drug in the early 1900's. In 1956 it started being used to treat autoimmune disorders like lupus and rheumatoid arthritis. You have to monitor blood levels and liver enzymes though because in some people it can build up in the liver, then you have to come off of it and let it flush. Sometimes you can go back on.

Prazosin, a drug designed to treat high blood pressure, now being used for treatment of nightmares in PTSD patients.

Clonidine, another antihypertensive, used for ADHD.

Quetiapine, a drug for bipolar and schizophrenia, now being used to treat insomnia.

Colchicine, originally designed for gout (just as Doc), now considered among first line treatments for pericarditis.

Propanolol, for hypertension and prophylaxis of angina, is also used for performance anxiety.

Haldol, an antipsychotic, for nausea and vomiting in palliative patients.

Gabapentin, Acyclovir, Buproprion.....more and more medications are being looked at for off-label use, and big pharma hates that because it means old drugs have a new lease on life but they can't capitalize on it because the patents have run out. Which is why, in the case of Covid symptom management and treatment, the aforementioned hydroxychloroquine and ivermectin are "old". There are no patents held on them and therefore they are cheap, in terms of revenue it's low flow. Now, what if you can pressure the FDA and various politicians and media moguls to squash this idea so that instead of having a treatable disease where mortality is super super low (when treated) and the body can recover and build its own immunity you scare the shit out of everyone, tie the hands of medical professionals, and roll out a vaccine that will make you billions of dollars. You can't charge an arm and a leg for the old stuff, because hey, it's old. But this new stuff? Well someone needs to pay for the R&D.
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Mëds wrote: Sat Jun 19, 2021 9:04 pm Why was herd immunity suddenly something to be attacked and questioned, or presumed to be not possible with Covid?
I assume you mean 'herd immunity' in the sense of becoming immune by catching covid which I don't think is the correct use of the term, but anyways. Sure it's possible to reach herd immunity by allowing covid to spread, but what about the long-term effects (covid long-haulers)? Who wants that!? Sometimes a vaccine is better than just catching the disease. That's why we prefer to have people vaccinated against chickenpox. Sure, you could get it 'naturally', but then you're at risk of getting shingles later on in life. If you are vaccinated, you don't have that risk.
Yes, I meant in that sense. However, I did not mean let it run its course and to hell with those who can't survive it. I was referring to the comments that have come out from some healthcare people, and then shotgunned around by the masses and social media, that dismiss herd immunity as even being a thing.

Same argument for those who are saying that natural immunity is not as good as vaccine acquired immunity. Bullshit. Vaccines work on the very principle that exposure to a pathogen creates an immune response.

Anyways, I'll stop there before I get long winded again. :P
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Re: We're All Doomed!™ (the Conquest, War, Famine, and Death Thread)

Post by donlever »

Great back and forth Boyz, awesome discussion!
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Re: We're All Doomed!™ (the Conquest, War, Famine, and Death Thread)

Post by Meds »

Cousin Strawberry wrote: Sun Jun 20, 2021 9:31 am
Mëds wrote: Sun Jun 20, 2021 9:17 am AstraZeneca out of favour in North America because of blood clot issue.....

As of May 13 there had been 2.3 million doses of AZ given in Canada with 28 cases of blood clots being reported.

Latest findings show that the risk of a clot goes down considerably when looking at the 2nd dose of AZ.

Pfizer and Moderna both reporting increasing cases of myocarditis in people under the age of 30. As of June 10 226 cases confirmed and another 250+ being investigated. In Israel they reported 275 cases after having vaccinated a little over 5 million people. Chop those in half to get down to the 2.3 million AZ shots with 28 cases of blood clots and you're still at nearly 5 times the risk.

The CDC released a report on June 10th that shows that in the 16-7 year old age range the observed cases of myocarditis/pericarditis were 4 times the expected, and in the 18-24 year old range they observed over double the expected. 25-39 was right in the middle of the expected range.....although the range was rather broad, 23-228, lol.

But now we're saying give this thing to everyone? Hey, you survived your first dose of AstraZeneca with no clot, let's give you this one and see if you'll end up with myocarditis or pericarditis.
Dont all vaccines, including things like tetanus, mumps, measels, pox, etc all have similar or higher rates of side effects though?

Its just the way she goes Mëds
There is a difference between common side effects and uncommon/severe side effects. You can go lookup the side effects of those ones you listed yourself.

Common side effects are attributed largely to a normal and predictive immune response, in general we don't give things to people as a prophylactic if the side effects can lead to a way worse outcome than the actual disease.

The expected side effects of the Covid vaccine are pretty much the same as any other vaccine, sore arm, chills, fatigue, nausea, tender lymph nodes, body ache, maybe a low-grade fever. This is indicative of an immune response, but without the full presentation of disease.....isn't it ironic that this "threat to humanity" often doesn't actually get any worse than the predicted side-effects of the vaccine? LOL!
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Re: We're All Doomed!™ (the Conquest, War, Famine, and Death Thread)

Post by Meds »

donlever wrote: Sun Jun 20, 2021 9:47 am Great back and forth Boyz, awesome discussion!
We're usually good like this for at least 6 rounds, or whenver Doc and UK (R.I.P.) chime in.....then it devolves into flaming and goalpost moving. :lol:
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Re: We're All Doomed!™ (the Conquest, War, Famine, and Death Thread)

Post by 5thhorseman »

I guess I just think prevention is better than a cure/treatment. And I don't mind paying for that.
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Re: We're All Doomed!™ (the Conquest, War, Famine, and Death Thread)

Post by Meds »

5thhorseman wrote: Sun Jun 20, 2021 9:59 am I guess I just think prevention is better than a cure/treatment. And I don't mind paying for that.
Well it's not like I'm saying one or the other. Both should have been given the greenlight and perhaps the vaccine could have been more thoroughly studied. A treatable disease means you don't need a lockdown that damages society on multiple levels. There are allegedly over 15 million procedures on the backlog in Ontario alone because of the public health measures that were put in place.

Consider the economic impact of recovering from this just on a human and healthcare level. Cancelled and postponed tests everywhere, procedures delayed, diagnoses missed. Now the patient gets diagnosed with stage 3 cancer instead of stage 2 and the cost of treatment goes up while survivability goes down. When they really start seeing the impact the response will be to get this backlog taken care of, and the only way to do this will be to increase capacity through either, or both, expanded centers and expanded hours of operation. This means material costs for diagnostic, therapeutic, and surgical, equipment, and possible facility expansions/modifications. Personnel costs go up to increase staffing (if it can be found). Big pharma gets another payday thanks to the increased cost of treating/managing diseases that could possibly have been dealt with far cheaper if caught at an earlier stage of the game.

So why not both? Why not give people who have had Covid the option of getting serum studies done as proof of immunity and forgoing the vaccine? After all, this would mean less vaccine required and more available to go around to people who don't have a naturally acquired immunity.
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Re: We're All Doomed!™ (the Conquest, War, Famine, and Death Thread)

Post by Carl Yagro »

Hasn't AZ just been discarded worldwide due to its possibility of side effects? I believe some studies have also shown that it is completely non-effective to the new Delta and other of the extreme variants that have been circulating for months. I held off AZ myself.

That's why many of the rich G7 nations have been dumping finally donating their hoarded vaccines (AZ) to those poorer nations in need :roll:

Apparently, 28 people just died in Taiwan recently from donated Japanese vaccines (I think it was AZ)?

I feel many of the vaccines created with newer technologies (not the well proven inactivated ones) were rushed into emergency use (as they should have). Their tests have been too few and too localized and perhaps during a down period of infection to claim an efficacy rate of 97%. Pure propaganda while accusing other nations of vaccine diplomacy when they actually were the ones helping poor countries to get jabs with access by donations and at much lower costs... even allowing some countries to start producing their own vaccines.

Since then, I think worldwide data has proven or disproven the effectiveness of many vaccines produced.
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Re: We're All Doomed!™ (the Conquest, War, Famine, and Death Thread)

Post by Cousin Strawberry »

I chose the AZ vax because it has "Astra" in the name and I am a big astral observer myself so....ya science and shit
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Re: We're All Doomed!™ (the Conquest, War, Famine, and Death Thread)

Post by donlever »

Cousin Strawberry wrote: Sun Jun 20, 2021 11:14 am I chose the AZ vax because it has "Astra" in the name and I am a big astral observer myself so....ya science and shit
:lol:

Plus the added benefit of it starting with an A.

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Re: We're All Doomed!™ (the Conquest, War, Famine, and Death Thread)

Post by Meds »

Carl Yagro wrote: Sun Jun 20, 2021 10:52 am Hasn't AZ just been discarded worldwide due to its possibility of side effects? I believe some studies have also shown that it is completely non-effective to the new Delta and other of the extreme variants that have been circulating for months. I held off AZ myself.

That's why many of the rich G7 nations have been dumping finally donating their hoarded vaccines (AZ) to those poorer nations in need :roll:

Apparently, 28 people just died in Taiwan recently from donated Japanese vaccines (I think it was AZ)?

I feel many of the vaccines created with newer technologies (not the well proven inactivated ones) were rushed into emergency use (as they should have). Their tests have been too few and too localized and perhaps during a down period of infection to claim an efficacy rate of 97%. Pure propaganda while accusing other nations of vaccine diplomacy when they actually were the ones helping poor countries to get jabs with access by donations and at much lower costs... even allowing some countries to start producing their own vaccines.

Since then, I think worldwide data has proven or disproven the effectiveness of many vaccines produced.
https://www.clinicaltrialsarena.com/new ... a-variant/

Shows 92% effectiveness at preventing hospitalization against the Delta and 86% against the Alpha.
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Re: We're All Doomed!™ (the Conquest, War, Famine, and Death Thread)

Post by 2Fingers »

At the end of the day isn’t COVID-19 just a virus strain that has one hell of a kick? If so then the world has been developing virus vaccine for how many years. With their vast experience in developing vaccines it does not surprise me they can develop a vaccine this quick based upon countless trials in the past.
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