The Brexit disaster

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Strangelove
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Re: The Brexit disaster

Post by Strangelove »

.
Per, you act like this is the first time someone ever said the EU is socialist. :lol:

I'm sure you know all the reasons why...

(if not, google it)

Sure, as you point out, in its formation socialism wasn't the goal.

But *sigh* here we are.
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Re: The Brexit disaster

Post by Per »

Strangelove wrote: Sun Jan 02, 2022 4:34 pm .
Per, you act like this is the first time someone ever said the EU is socialist. :lol:
Well, it's not. In the UK a lot of the EU scepticism has been from the tories, and so they've often made the claim that it is a left wing project.

I've never really bought into that though and never fully understood their reasoning. Was it perhaps because the UK was the only country in the EU that did not have legislation granting full time workers the right to paid vacation, and the EU made them change that?

Enlighten me!
I'm sure you know all the reasons why...
No, I truly do not.

Most criticism of the EU in Sweden comes from the left, claiming that the EU is too market oriented and does not have the best interest of the workers at heart. That EU legislation weakens the trade unions and is undermining workers' rights while protecting the companies and banks. Here you mostly hear people claim that the EU is a conservative project and completely focusing on trade issues. So the UK perspective is hard for me to grasp or take seriously.

Of course there is also some right wing criticism from the Sweden Democrats, who trace their roots to the neonazi and white supremacy movement, but that can easily be summed up as "foreigners bad - lock the border!"
It is not based on a conservative viewpoint and is not focusing on the evils of socialism. It is just that they hate foreigners and therefore consider the free movement of people within the EU a nuisance, except when it comes to themselves vacationing in the sun, of course.

And of course you know that the "socialist republics" of old never were in favour of free movement of people, capital, goods or services. They typically focused on draconian border control for both products and people and import substitution through government subsidies to local production. More or less the absolute opposite of what the EU stands for. Did you ever visit any East Block countries back in the day? Then you'd know what I'm talking about.
(if not, google it)
Now you are just being lazy. :lol:
You make an unsubstantiated claim, you explain it.
But perhaps you can't? :|
Sure, as you point out, in its formation socialism wasn't the goal.

But *sigh* here we are.
And exactly where do you think we are? :hmmm:
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Re: The Brexit disaster

Post by Per »

Also, the Brexit referendum was in 2016. It's now been five years.
Even though, technically, the UK did not leave the EU till Jan 1st of 2021, some of the effects of Brexit started immediately after the referendum as companies started bracing themselves for the catastrophe.

I have taken a look at GDP growth and compared that for the EU as a whole and the UK. It can be noted that between 2000 and 2015, the combined GDP growth of the UK was more than 5% higher than that of the EU, so we know from that that on average, while in the EU, the UK has tended to do better than the average EU member. In part because the City of London has served as a financial hub for the EU, attracting capital from all over the place. However, the combined GDP growth for the UK for the five years spanning 2016-2020 is a negative 4.2% while the EU had a positive growth of 3.2%, ie the UK did 7.4% worse than the EU as a whole, and then remember the UK was still part of the EU, so if they had not been included, the EU would have done even better. :|

As an added comparisson, in the same period (2016-2020) the combined GDP growth for Sweden was 5.9%, the USA 5.8% and Canada 2.8%, so it is fair to say that the UK did pretty awful in this time period. Since they were still part of the EU, this is not due to the added cost of doing business after they leave, in the shape of tariffs and red tape, as that only kicked in from 2021 onward. The main losses in the time period I've looked at would rather be caused by businesses shutting down in Britain and relocating as well as migrant workers deciding to move elsewhere.

To try this theory we can take a look at Ireland and Poland and how they've fared over these five years. Ireland, as Dublin is a prime location for eg American enterprises moving their European head quarters away from the UK to remain within the EU, and Poland as they have been the source of a large part of intra-EU migrant workers in the UK.

Ireland has seen a combined GDP growth of a staggering 34.5% over this period, not even seeing a covid-related dip in 2020 as all the other nations included in this comparisson. Holy mf cow! :shock: I mean, I suspected there would be an uptick, but their effing combined gross national product grew by more than a third! That... that's more than the US economy grew under the 16 years of the combined presidencies of George W Bush and Obama! And they did it in just five years.

Poland then. Not as impressive as Ireland, but still a massive 16% growth over this five year period! This is not caused by relocating businesses, but by people returning from the UK and investing their earnings at home. Also adding manpower to an economy with a labour shortage, thus helping the engines roll. Not bad.

So, even before the main problems relating to trade have started to have an impact, as they only will have an effect from 2021 onward, the UK has suffered a massive blow as a result of Brexit. Poor bastards. :|

Growth 2016 2017 2018 2019 2020 combined
EU....... 2.1 _ 3.0 _ 2.3 _ 1.9 _ -5.9 = 3.2%
UK....... 1.7 _ 1.7 _ 1.3 _ 1.4 _ -9.8 =-4.2%
Sweden. 2.1 _ 2.6 _ 2.0 _ 2.0 _ -2.8 = 5.9%
USA..... 1.7 _ 2.3 _ 2.9 _ 2.3 _ -3.4 = 5.8%
Canada. 1.0 _ 3.0 _ 2.4 _ 1.9 _ -5.3 = 2.8%
Ireland.. 2.0 _ 8.9 _ 9.0 _ 4.9 _ 5.9 = 34.5%
Poland.. 3.1 _ 4.8 _ 5.4 _ 4.7 _ -2.7 = 16.0%

All figures from the International Monetary Fund (IMF):
https://www.imf.org/external/datamapper ... RL/POL/GBR
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Re: The Brexit disaster

Post by Strangelove »

Per wrote: Mon Jan 03, 2022 1:31 am Now you are just being lazy. :lol:
Yup.

It might help if I cared at all about the godforsaken European Union...

I dunno, I heard they're a buncha commies over there is all.

I realize you're always trying to paint them otherwise, but you commies are sneaky like that.

Agree to disagree? :mrgreen:
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Re: The Brexit disaster

Post by Cornuck »

Doc, the way call everyone either socialist, commie or antifa.... :D .... it's lost all meaning coming from you. I know you know better. You can DO better. :oops:

Let's look for stronger arguments in this new year.
Doc: "BTW, Donny was right, you're smug."
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Re: The Brexit disaster

Post by Strangelove »

Dammit Corn, I almost had Per's goat! :evil:

What are you... Batman?

I didn't want yet another discussion with Per about the EU.

Good Lord man, he's already written a book on the subject.

I said my peace about dat dere a few years ago and dat's dat.
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Re: The Brexit disaster

Post by donlever »

But far more importantly....bet none of you had any idea I was tapping Nastassja Kinski....
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Re: The Brexit disaster

Post by Strangelove »

donlever wrote: Mon Jan 03, 2022 6:12 pm But far more importantly....bet none of you had any idea I was tapping Nastassja Kinski....
I had my suspicions.
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Re: The Brexit disaster

Post by rats19 »

donlever wrote: Mon Jan 03, 2022 6:12 pm But far more importantly....bet none of you had any idea I was tapping Nastassja Kinski....
I knew :wink:
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Re: The Brexit disaster

Post by Cornuck »

Strangelove wrote: Mon Jan 03, 2022 6:02 pm I said my peace about dat dere a few years ago and dat's dat.
Fuckin' anarchists.... ;)
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Re: The Brexit disaster

Post by donlever »

Cornuck wrote: Mon Jan 03, 2022 7:44 pm
Strangelove wrote: Mon Jan 03, 2022 6:02 pm I said my peace about dat dere a few years ago and dat's dat.
Fuckin' anarchists.... ;)
See now, I could go big time on revised lyrics of Anarchy in the UK with Doc playing the Lydon role.

Doc is the Antichrist
A closet anarchist
Innocence he will flaunt
But dont you all get it
He has an urge to destroy, poser boys


But a guy can't possibly take on 1000 rock song re-writes the first month of a New Year of course.
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Re: The Brexit disaster

Post by Cornuck »

Pace yourself, Donnie...
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Re: The Brexit disaster

Post by Per »

donlever wrote: Mon Jan 03, 2022 6:12 pm But far more importantly....bet none of you had any idea I was tapping Nastassja Kinski....
With gasoline? :o

It’s been so long...
Last edited by Per on Tue Jan 04, 2022 3:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Brexit disaster

Post by Topper »

Walmart sells socks but the dozen cheap
Over the Internet, you can pretend to be anyone or anything.

I'm amazed that so many people choose to be complete twats.
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Re: The Brexit disaster

Post by Strangelove »

donlever wrote: Mon Jan 03, 2022 8:33 pm
Cornuck wrote: Mon Jan 03, 2022 7:44 pm
Strangelove wrote: Mon Jan 03, 2022 6:02 pm I said my peace about dat dere a few years ago and dat's dat.
Fuckin' anarchists.... ;)
See now, I could go big time on revised lyrics of Anarchy in the UK with Doc playing the Lydon role.

Doc is the Antichrist
A closet anarchist
Innocence he will flaunt
But dont you all get it
He has an urge to destroy, poser boys


But a guy can't possibly take on 1000 rock song re-writes the first month of a New Year of course.
HELP!!

They've got my goat surrounded. :(
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