The 'Sisters' aren't worth the price

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Re: The 'Sisters' aren't worth the price

Post by Cornuck » Mon Jan 12, 2009 2:52 pm

jchockey wrote:how the Sedins play this summer will very much determine their market value. I hope they realize that as well. Unfortunately, and this is awfully pessimistic, I don't see anything from them that tells me they can elevate their level of play and lead this team deep into the playoffs.
To me the Sedin's are defined by their consistancy. I think they play at one level - always. They will have slumps like any player, and they will have better games, and games with puck luck. Maybe it's because of this that they have a hard time to turn it up a notch come playoff time. They aren't leaders, they were never promoted as leaders, so I don't see how people expect them to become leaders. You can't hand a player an "A" and give them magical leadership abilities with it. Leadership comes from a lifetime of experiences. Some people have it, and some don't.

If we make the playoffs this year, we'll actually have 2 decent lines to throw at the other team. One of the two will have more opportunites. So far it's looking like the other teams want to focus on Sundin and his presence, which will help the team (and the Sedins) immensely. Sundin won't have to be a point-a-game player to be effective.
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Re: The 'Sisters' aren't worth the price

Post by jchockey » Mon Jan 12, 2009 4:23 pm

Cornuck wrote: To me the Sedin's are defined by their consistancy. I think they play at one level - always. They will have slumps like any player, and they will have better games, and games with puck luck. Maybe it's because of this that they have a hard time to turn it up a notch come playoff time. They aren't leaders, they were never promoted as leaders, so I don't see how people expect them to become leaders. You can't hand a player an "A" and give them magical leadership abilities with it. Leadership comes from a lifetime of experiences. Some people have it, and some don't.
I don't find that argument convincing at all. Rod Brind'Amour is probably one of the most consistent players to play the game and he stepped his game up in a major way in '05 - everyone knew Brind'Amour was the MVP and deserved the Conn Smythe.

I know the Sedins aren't leaders and that's part of the problem. They're talented, but I'm not sure I can count of those two to lead the team offensively come playoff time. I don't ever expect them to become leaders, which is why I've been saying for awhile now that perhaps the team and the twins need to part ways.

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Re: The 'Sisters' aren't worth the price

Post by Cornuck » Mon Jan 12, 2009 4:37 pm

I agree - they aren't leaders. Does everyone on the team need to be a leader? Is it really going to make or break our Cup chances if the Sedins aren't 'leaders'?
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Re: The 'Sisters' aren't worth the price

Post by Mozy » Mon Jan 12, 2009 5:05 pm

Cornuck wrote:I agree - they aren't leaders. Does everyone on the team need to be a leader? Is it really going to make or break our Cup chances if the Sedins aren't 'leaders?
It'll break our chances if we don't have somebody to be a leader. And I mean somebody other than Luongo. You need an offensive leader to make those clutch plays.
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Re: The 'Sisters' aren't worth the price

Post by jchockey » Mon Jan 12, 2009 9:54 pm

Cornuck wrote:I agree - they aren't leaders. Does everyone on the team need to be a leader? Is it really going to make or break our Cup chances if the Sedins aren't 'leaders'?
Not everyone on the team needs to be a leader, but I think that the guys on my top line should play some sort of leadership role on the team.

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Re: The 'Sisters' aren't worth the price

Post by Farhan Lalji » Wed Jan 14, 2009 4:00 pm

Madcombinepilot wrote: 1) the stomach flu was running through the entire dressingroom during those playoffs.... Remember the look on Nonis's face when Sanford came out to start that OT period, because Lu was in the lu? it wasn't just the twins that were sick, it was a bunch of them. Not an excuse for thier play, just a fact.

2) the ENITRE team shit the bed last year for the last 10 games. don't just point at the twins. Where were the 'leaders' on the team then? what did Naslund and Morrison do to ge tthe team into the post season?? for the last 10 games last year, nobody performed and finger pointing at individuals is useless. Don't let your dislike for 2 people jade your view of the past.
Few things:

1) It was Sabourin, not Sanford, that came to start that OT period. Lu wasn't in the loo....he had a skate malfunction and it needed to be addressed. To the best of my knowledge, Luongo was NOT sick during these playoffs.

2) I do NOT dislike the Sedin twins...or Naslund....or Morrison. To varying degrees, I think all 4 men are excellent additions to any team when at their best (although in Nazzy and Mo's case, perhaps their 'best' days are behind them). Having said that - I do not respect the twins and Naslund as much as I do some other players for the following reasons.

A) Lack of ability to carry the team when it matters most.
B) Lack of ability to help the team when not scoring.
C) Lack of "aura"

You cite the fact that the Sedin twins struggled last year (final ten games) "like everyone else." See? That's my point. A true leader isn't like "everyone else." A true leader gets pissed off, elevates his game, which then elevates the games of those around him. Remember in 06/07 when the Avs were *way* out of the playoff picture and then went on a 15-2-2 tear thanks largely to Joe Sakic? Remember that game in March 07 when the Avs beat Vancouver? (although at this point, the game had little meaning to the Canuck). Remember that one instance where Sakic raced back into his own end, stole the puck of Daniel Sedin, and completely dashed up with the puck the other way? THAT was leadership by EXAMPLE.

Look at Mats Sundin in Toronto the past few years. Sundin was surrounded by complete garbage but almost singlehandedly carried the Leaves into the post-season (I think it was also the 06/07 season that Sundin caught on fire at season's end and elevated his play).

Look at Iginla during the 2004 playoffs. As much as I dislike the guy for being a Flame, I have nothing but respect for the guy. Iginla had an "aura" about him in those playoffs and was an absolute danger EVERY TIME HE STEPPED ON THE ICE.....not just a few shifts (like Naslund and the Sedin twins throughout their playoff history). When Iginla wasn't scoring, he was throwing hits and/or challenging people to fight. The guy was playing defense and was backchecking like crazy.

Look at Trevor Linden and Pavel Bure from 1994. Even though Bure's point production on average was less impressive than his regular season stats throughout his playoff history (if I remember correctly), the guy was another consistent nightmare for opponents. So many on-ice rushes, scoring chances, etc. Bure had an attitude problem as well....for all the right reasons. Remember how pissed he got at Shane Churla?....and knocked him on his ass? When have we EVER seen the Sedins' or Naslund do that?

Remember during the Stanley Cup when Bure got a game misconduct?....which then lead to the Rangers winning that particular game 5-1. THAT is the type of difference maker that Bure was if he wasn't playing for the Canucks.

As it relates to Linden, the guy displayed all of the traits that Iginla displayed in 04 (just to clarify - I'm not saying that Linden had the talent level of Iginla....I believe that they were of the same "mold" however). The guy could score, hit, play defense, get pissed off, lead, etc.

It's no coincidence that both Linden and Bure scored some of our most important goals that year...and in year's previous...when the team needed them the most.

Kirk McLean and Roberto Luongo.....same thing: In 94' and 07' respectively, these guys were COMPLETELY in the heads of their opponent (for both era's, Dallas were mindfucked in both instances, while Toronto got mindfucked in 94'). Do you remember how Toronto got shut out 3 straight games? In 07', look at how many times Dallas were blanked?....despite significantly outplaying Vancouver for the most part?

Bottom line? Leaders and "alpha's" LEAD. They LEAD when the team needs them the most. They INSPIRE others to be better.

Guys like the Sedin twins and Naslund are great players, but I just haven't seen any evidence of them having an "aura" or consistently striking fear into the hearts of opponents. Both guys get their points, but that consistent 'aura' and consistent 'fear' being struck into the hearts of opponents is not there.

I don't dislike the twins or Naslund. Based on what I've seen from them however, I wouldn't want THEM "leading the way." These guys are tremendous additions to any team, but there had better be another "alpha leader" or "spark plug" in that dressing room.

Guys like Gretzky, Scott Stevens, Steve Yzerman, and Joe Sakic don't have my 100% respect based on just ability. They have my 100% respect because they were great leaders. Heck - Yzerman is actually my 2nd favorite player of all-time (behind Bure) and he's not even a Canuck!

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Re: The 'Sisters' aren't worth the price

Post by the toucan kid » Wed Jan 14, 2009 4:34 pm

To be fair Farhan, the Sedins are not being paid like the great bravura leaders you mention. They're paid second line wages and have never been asked to take or given the responsibly of making the team their own. They have always been secondary complements to the WCE, and now to Luongo. It needs to be said, our current captain, sucked about as bad as they did down the stretch last year. I'm not especially interested in blaming him for that, but he is the one making the coin.

Do I think they can lead a team? No, but that isn't even part of the equation.

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Re: The 'Sisters' aren't worth the price

Post by Island Nucklehead » Wed Jan 14, 2009 4:56 pm

As far as leadership goes, it's obvious our strength is in our D...and that's where our leadership should/and is focused. Guys like Mitchell, Ohlund and Bieksa are the heart and guts of our team. Defensive forwards like Kesler will also get a hard look. I think being a physical player that sets examples is what defines playoff leadership...hence the Sedin's will not be relied upon for that.
Guys like Gretzky, Scott Stevens, Steve Yzerman, and Joe Sakic
For Christ's sake Farhan, stop comparing the Sedin's to Hall of Fame players. If I could trade both the Sedin's for any of those guys in there prime it would happn. How many guys in the entire LEAGUE are there like that currently...not many. We hear your argument that they aren't leaders. I don't think anyone expects 26 year old Swedish twins to be the vocal leaders. They need to put pucks in the net, and if they can do that I'm stoked. Like the Devils (see your gross Stevens comparison) our strength is in the backend and that's where our motivation should come from: preventing goals.

The Sedin's are going to be relied upon to score goals. Luongo will have to be the inspirational one by keeping them in games, Bieksa, Ohlund, Mitchell, the checking line and the fourth line bangers will have to provide the physicality.

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Re: The 'Sisters' aren't worth the price

Post by Mikodat » Wed Jan 14, 2009 7:50 pm

The Sedin's are going to be relied upon to score goals. Luongo will have to be the inspirational one by keeping them in games, Bieksa, Ohlund, Mitchell, the checking line and the fourth line bangers will have to provide the physicality.


Agree, for the most part.. Ohlund and Linden were our top scorers 2007 Playoffs.. Sedin's were checked into the ground.. kinda like the last game against the Devils.. When the going gets tough their cycle game is usually beaten by a good defensive team and they end up on the wrong end of the +/- stat.. But isn't that why MG brought in Sundin? When he rounds into shape ( probably after the All Star break ) He should provide both the physical and emotional leadership talents that will not only add goals but free up space for the twins.. There is no question on my part that with Sundin hitting stride.. Luongo back in the groove..Salo back on defence and manning the point on the PP we are a far better team than we ever have been in years.
The Sedin twins will be far more effective and worth more as a 1b line.. The 5 mill number seems about right for them given there talent .
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Re: The 'Sisters' aren't worth the price

Post by DonCherry4PM » Wed Jan 14, 2009 9:44 pm

the toucan kid wrote:To be fair Farhan, the Sedins are not being paid like the great bravura leaders you mention. They're paid second line wages and have never been asked to take or given the responsibly of making the team their own. They have always been secondary complements to the WCE, and now to Luongo. It needs to be said, our current captain, sucked about as bad as they did down the stretch last year. I'm not especially interested in blaming him for that, but he is the one making the coin.

Do I think they can lead a team? No, but that isn't even part of the equation.
You didn't..... You didn't actually compare the Sedins to Luongo....

Did he have a rough end of the year? Yeah he did, after carrying this team for a year and a half. After putting the entire team on his shoulders and carrying them in a series against Dallas. After winning the division title for the team and winning AV a Jack Adams. Yeah, he had a stretch of 20 games where his wife who was thousands of miles away from him gave birth to their child. He had a momentary lapse from being a demigod. The Sedins have NEVER taken this team on their back and carried it through anything. I am not saying they are paid to, that they should, etc., but until they do, do not take an aberration in Luongo's play to try to justify theirs.

On a side note: question re the Sedin's worth. Would you rather have two Sedins for 10 or one Kovalchuk + a 2 million player? Me, I'm thinking Kovalchuk. And if you agree would you be willing to trade both Sedins for him?
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Re: The 'Sisters' aren't worth the price

Post by the toucan kid » Wed Jan 14, 2009 10:46 pm

You didn't..... You didn't actually compare the Sedins to Luongo....

Did he have a rough end of the year? Yeah he did, after carrying this team for a year and a half. After putting the entire team on his shoulders and carrying them in a series against Dallas. After winning the division title for the team and winning AV a Jack Adams. Yeah, he had a stretch of 20 games where his wife who was thousands of miles away from him gave birth to their child. He had a momentary lapse from being a demigod. The Sedins have NEVER taken this team on their back and carried it through anything. I am not saying they are paid to, that they should, etc., but until they do, do not take an aberration in Luongo's play to try to justify theirs.

On a side note: question re the Sedin's worth. Would you rather have two Sedins for 10 or one Kovalchuk + a 2 million player? Me, I'm thinking Kovalchuk. And if you agree would you be willing to trade both Sedins for him?
I think you're completely misrepresenting/misunderstanding the point of my post. Luongo is expected to be the mail carrier for this team (as I say pretty clearly in the post I'm not interested in blaming him for last years collapse), the Sedins are not paid to be, nor are they expected to be, leaders. Nothing about my post defends the Sedins drop in production (or links it to Luongo's play), merely saying that if one blames the collapse on leadership, the blame needs to be allocated to the leadership of the team, which is Luongo. I believe the reason last years team collapsed is mostly due to the fact that it sucked, and was ripped apart by injury. Leadership had nothing to do with it.

As for the Sedins for Kovalchuk? Yes, and a pretty quick yes at that.

Farhan Lalji

Re: The 'Sisters' aren't worth the price

Post by Farhan Lalji » Wed Jan 14, 2009 11:08 pm

Few things I'd like to mention:

1) I'd be highly interested in Sedin twins for Kovalchuk, but I don't think I'd ultimately do it. Here is why;

A) Sedin twins have a lot more loyalty to Vancouver than a guy like Kovalchuk. I get the feeling that the twins would be willing to take a home town discount to play here (albeit...a slight one). Kovalchuk would have no problem leaving here after 18 months....meaning, that we'd ultimately end up with nothing.

B) If you trade the twins for Kovalchuk, the "problem" isn't really being addressed. Essentially, the Canucks would still be a one line team (i.e. Kovalchuk-Sundin-Demitra on one line....and then?!). If one of those 3 are left to play on another line, the drop off in linemate talent may not maximize the talent of this one player (i.e. Kovalchuk being forced to play with a guy like Pyatt and Raymond).

Personally - I would rather keep the twins. I still contend that the Sedins' have the potential to be the best 2nd line in hockey. Ideally - I'd have the twins anchoring a second line on my "dream team." The 1st line would consist of a superstar (i.e. Sundin) that had an "alpha" type personality (i.e. Sundin) and would have no problem leading the troops.

2) To Island Nuck - here are some players that *aren't* top tier superstars (of the level of Gretzky, Yzerman, etc.) who I feel are great leaders and elevate their games come playoff time (or did when they played): Keith Primeau, Tim Taylor, Dave Anderchuck, Kris Draper, Darren McCarty, Claude Lemieux, Michael Peca, Dave Lowry, Scott Melanby, Craig Conroy, and Rod Brind'amour.

Granted - some of those guys don't have the same 'roles' or 'expectations' that the Sedins' have, but still.....with these players, you see a constant elevation of play when the games matter most. You see a completely different level of intensity. Perhaps this can be seen in a negative way as well (i.e. Why don't these guys play like this during the regular season? Why didn't Linden play like he did during the 06/07 post-season the last 3 years?, etc.). Anyway - that is my response to your feedback.

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Re: The 'Sisters' aren't worth the price

Post by Island Nucklehead » Thu Jan 15, 2009 11:25 am

Farhan Lalji wrote: 2) To Island Nuck - here are some players that *aren't* top tier superstars (of the level of Gretzky, Yzerman, etc.) who I feel are great leaders and elevate their games come playoff time (or did when they played): Keith Primeau, Tim Taylor, Dave Anderchuck, Kris Draper, Darren McCarty, Claude Lemieux, Michael Peca, Dave Lowry, Scott Melanby, Craig Conroy, and Rod Brind'amour.

Granted - some of those guys don't have the same 'roles' or 'expectations' that the Sedins' have, but still.....with these players, you see a constant elevation of play when the games matter most. You see a completely different level of intensity. Perhaps this can be seen in a negative way as well (i.e. Why don't these guys play like this during the regular season? Why didn't Linden play like he did during the 06/07 post-season the last 3 years?, etc.). Anyway - that is my response to your feedback.
Okay Farhan, now we can get into it...

The guys you mentioned are North American, gritty, for the most part non-scoring players. There's no reason guys like Kesler, can fill those rolls on this team. Most of the players you mentioned had talent on their team that could put up the points so they wouldn't have to. We have a relatively young, playoff exerience lacking team. It is going to take time to learn how to play playoff hockey.

Conroy has played 75 playoff games with 29 points. (10 Goals)
Keith Primeau had 57 points in 128 games. (18 goals) .44 pts/game compared to .68 pts/game regular season.
Draper has 44 pts in 194 games. .22pts/gm compared with .32 reg season.
Peca ditto.

Kesler has played exactly one playoff game.
Demitra's pts/game falls off in the playoffs, but he still has 50pts in 77 games.
Sundin has 74 pts in 83 games (and 72 pims)
Even Pyatt has a better pts/game ratio than Draper. (.42/game)

Sure, you need gritt in the playoffs. If the Canucks iced that lineup, we'd be out in 4. This team has very little playoff experience. We should go out and get someone that does, and when I suggest guys like Guerin or Weight, people shit the bed. Obviously this team is going to sink and swim with Luongo's performance and the defense's ability to keep pucks out. I wouldn't mind having a guy like this who could chip in the odd timely goal, someone that knows how to play playoff hockey. We don't need a Kovalchuk (2 playoff points) or a Nash (0 pts.) to learn the ropes with us, we need a guy we can look to and get pointers on. Even if they are at the tail-end of their careers, they have precious insight into what it takes to win champioships...of which I'm pretty sure there are NONE on our team.

Bill Guerin has played 105 playoff games and has 28 goals and 50 points.
Doug Weight has played 97 playoff games and has 72 points.
Tkachuck 56 pts (28G) in 85 games.
Jere Lehtinen has 49 (27G) in 108 games.

There's plenty of guys out here who can add both playoff experience and points to our team. Guys that could probably be had for little and whose contracts are up at the end of the season.

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Re: The 'Sisters' aren't worth the price

Post by Cornuck » Thu Jan 15, 2009 11:28 am

Island Nucklehead wrote:we need a guy we can look to and get pointers on. Even if they are at the tail-end of their careers, they have precious insight into what it takes to win champioships...
We had one last year, but retired his number this year.
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Re: The 'Sisters' aren't worth the price

Post by jchockey » Thu Jan 15, 2009 11:37 am

More points to factor:

Luongo is the mail man. He's the saviour. He's the captain. But let's face it, even when the Devils had Martin Brodeur and really depended on him to win games, they always had that one player that could lead at the other end of the ice where it matters most sometimes. First it was Scott Stevens, then Jamie Langenbrunner, who is truly an underrated player and captain. Who's our Stevens? Mitchell's not it because he's not a gamebreaker. The last defenseman that could really turn the game/momentum around in a single play was Jovanovski. Who's our Langenbrunner? I'd like to say Kesler, but he's a couple years away from that role.
toucan wrote:To be fair Farhan, the Sedins are not being paid like the great bravura leaders you mention. They're paid second line wages and have never been asked to take or given the responsibly of making the team their own. They have always been secondary complements to the WCE, and now to Luongo. It needs to be said, our current captain, sucked about as bad as they did down the stretch last year. I'm not especially interested in blaming him for that, but he is the one making the coin.

Do I think they can lead a team? No, but that isn't even part of the equation.
The Sedins aren't paid to be bravura leaders, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't play or act like one. Toews is on a rookie contract, yet he's already exemplified enough leadership to lead a team. Obviously the Sedins aren't Toews' calibre, but the moment Naslund and the WCE was taken apart they should've grabbed the leadership roles - logically speaking, they're the Canucks' new number one line but they have yet to really do anything (other than put up good regular season numbers) to show that they're capable of being leaders or taking on that role.
Farhan wrote:A) Sedin twins have a lot more loyalty to Vancouver than a guy like Kovalchuk. I get the feeling that the twins would be willing to take a home town discount to play here (albeit...a slight one). Kovalchuk would have no problem leaving here after 18 months....meaning, that we'd ultimately end up with nothing.

B) If you trade the twins for Kovalchuk, the "problem" isn't really being addressed. Essentially, the Canucks would still be a one line team (i.e. Kovalchuk-Sundin-Demitra on one line....and then?!). If one of those 3 are left to play on another line, the drop off in linemate talent may not maximize the talent of this one player (i.e. Kovalchuk being forced to play with a guy like Pyatt and Raymond).
A) No doubt Sedins have more loyalty to Vancouver than Kovalchuk, but that doesn't mean Kovalchuk won't warm up to Vancouver. Here's a guy that's obviously hotheaded and driven, but has elected to brush off numerous trade rumours over the year and tough it out in Atlanta. I think that speaks volumes about the type of player he is. 29 other teams in the league would love to have this guy and it would've been easy for him to just say "get me outta here," but he hasn't. And let's face it, Vancouver is a much better team than Atlanta and has a chance every year to make the playoffs. The only reason I can see Kovalchuk not wanting to play here is because of AV's defensive system.

B) The problem is addressed, actually. One of the main problems with the Sedins is logistics. You simply can't separate the two, which means that there's always the question of the "right winger" and balancing the lines. Obviously Sundin's the solution this year, but he's not here for long and Demitra's too injury-prone to provide consistent depth offense. By acquiring Kovalchuk we become a one-line team (although I'd argue that we still are, despite Demitra and Sundin) but I think a much more potent one-line team at that. I think one Kovalchuk is much more potent offensively than a Sedin duo. Individually he's a much greater talent.

This is all basing, of course, that we don't just get Kovalchuk in return for the Sedins, but Kovalchuk and other(s) in return.

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