WHO should the Canucks get with their freed-up cap space?

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Re: WHO should the Canucks get with their freed-up cap space?

Post by nucklehead88 » Fri Jan 09, 2009 3:23 pm

i'm all for preparing for the future. and you guys are definatly right one big player may not matter....but hey remember hossa for the pens last season? yes i'm thinking for the future but god sakes i'm sick and tired for saying maybe next year....what about this year? we have something here we may not have again for a long time with wellwood hot and the sedins and demitra doing well, sundin with us, a solid goalie core and a tough d line. look what looking for the future for did for us for the last 40 years...nada. nonis never went all out at the deadline and neither did burke, well why not now? lets show some cajones antd get somone. like horton or boyes, maybe a vet like weight or guerin.
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Re: WHO should the Canucks get with their freed-up cap space?

Post by Island Nucklehead » Fri Jan 09, 2009 3:32 pm

DonCherry4PM wrote: I think impatience is one of the greatest flaws in the average Vancouver fan. Not that we don't have reason to want a cup now, but sometimes good things come to those that wait.
I think as Vancouver fans, we've been patient long enough. This is by far the best team we've ever had. For years we had offensive ability, minus goaltending. Then we had goaltending and no offensive ability. Now we have most of the pieces, minus the top-end depth. "At what point do we say, we need to win now!"?

I'm not saying mortgage the whole farm. But to think we need to hold onto guys like Raymond and Schneider is lunacy. There is very little chance that Schneider will be as good as Luongo. In fact I'm willing to put money on it. Right now he's a great piece of trade bait and we should use him as such. I'm not sold on Raymond either, he's fast and has some skill but by no means is he part of our core.

I hate to point out the fact that Sundin is a rental, he's 75% gone at the end of the year. Odds are we can't resign him, Danrick, and Ohlund, and if we do we're no better than we are now. Odds are we are going to have a tough time icing a better roster next year than we have now, Hodgson is probably the only player we can count on to join us from the farm. And I don't think he's going to be better than having Sundin for an entire season.

At this point, we have the cap space to acquire someone else for the run this yeah. Signing free agents is not going to make us a better contender, simply because giving Hossa or Gaborik $10M each takes that much more out of our cap.
Farhan, can't say I agree, but guess it depends on the one player. Give me Ovechkin or Malkin or someone of that ilk and I would agree, but to say that while throwing in a Guerin or Weight is somewhat of a stretch.
Those guys don't grow on trees. We're not willing to suck for half a generation to draft these franchise players. We're going to have to add pieces to the team we've got. Players like Guerin and Weight are not going to cost us nearly as much. And we're not looking for a #1 winger, but someone to add to our team...which relies on scoring by committee.

A first round pick could be good in 4 years, but there's no guarantee the team he plays on will be as good as we are now. It's something we definitely have to at least consider.

The other option to look at would be dealing for someone who has another year on their current deal. Nash out of Columbus or Kovalchuk out of Atlanta would fit Don Cherry's idea of a superstar addition...but they will not be cheap, but are not a rental either.

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Re: WHO should the Canucks get with their freed-up cap space?

Post by Madcombinepilot » Fri Jan 09, 2009 4:11 pm

Island,
while I agree that Sundin is prolly gone and might be a rental, he only cost us cash... not prospects and picks. If he is a bust, it was no big deal.

Sundin might stick though... he might decide to be the captain of team sweden in the olympics, and then he would know the rink, and the fans... not quite a home game against canada, but Sedin, Sedin, ohlund, Sundin, and Edler might make the fans appreciate team sweden more leading up to that game...
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Re: WHO should the Canucks get with their freed-up cap space?

Post by DonCherry4PM » Fri Jan 09, 2009 5:04 pm

nucklehead88 wrote:nonis never went all out at the deadline and neither did burke, well why not now? lets show some cajones antd get somone. like horton or boyes, maybe a vet like weight or guerin.
True enough, they kept wasting draft picks on players like Weinrich etc. It is all well and good to go out and get someone who is going to make a difference. The big question is whether they will make a difference and what will it cost. I am tired of flushing away future hopes on rental players and making a trade for the sake of being able to say that one made a trade. And this flows into those comments made by Island
Island Nucklehead wrote:I'm not saying mortgage the whole farm. But to think we need to hold onto guys like Raymond and Schneider is lunacy. There is very little chance that Schneider will be as good as Luongo. In fact I'm willing to put money on it. Right now he's a great piece of trade bait and we should use him as such. I'm not sold on Raymond either, he's fast and has some skill but by no means is he part of our core.

I hate to point out the fact that Sundin is a rental, he's 75% gone at the end of the year. Odds are we can't resign him, Danrick, and Ohlund, and if we do we're no better than we are now. Odds are we are going to have a tough time icing a better roster next year than we have now, Hodgson is probably the only player we can count on to join us from the farm. And I don't think he's going to be better than having Sundin for an entire season.
While I agree with Schneider so long as we can resign Luongo, Raymond is a different story. You don't trade a kid with potential like this for a rental, you trade him in a package deal for someone who is both proven and will stick around for a while. This is even more true when you have a dearth of reasonable offensive prospects as seems to be the case with us. Pittsburgh in their deal for Hossa was dealing from a position of strength, they had tons of young talent. We, on the other hand, are short in that department (albeit better than we have been for a significant time - but that just confirms how bad we have been, not how good we are).

In regard to Sundin, as MCP, has stated he is not a rental. We have given up nothing for him other than cap space. We did not lose any prospects or talent. Whether he stays or goes that is a good deal.
INH wrote:Those guys don't grow on trees. We're not willing to suck for half a generation to draft these franchise players. We're going to have to add pieces to the team we've got. Players like Guerin and Weight are not going to cost us nearly as much. And we're not looking for a #1 winger, but someone to add to our team...which relies on scoring by committee.

A first round pick could be good in 4 years, but there's no guarantee the team he plays on will be as good as we are now. It's something we definitely have to at least consider.
True they don't grow on trees, that is what makes them worth so much. And I, for one, would rather have been a basement dweller for a few years, in order to have such a player for ten, instead of suffering through mediocrity.

Adding pieces is great so long as the pieces actually fit and do not lead to having a larger hole to fit after you are done than when you started. I agree that a draft pick may or may not turn out, but the same can be said of a rental player, and our past history is quite representative of this.

I guess the major divergence of opinions is whether by making a trade now we could actually vault ourselves into a position where we have a viable shot at the cup. Until we see how Sundin fits with the team and whether Luongo is back to pull form and function, I am dubious. Thus I am more content to build until we are in a position of strength. Our farm team has definitely improved, given another year of good drafting and development it could substantially change where we are standing. When it comes down to it, I am loathe to take the chance of repeating Nonis and Burke's mistake's of trading any small value we may have retaining good prospects, when this pool just seems to be starting to pick up.
INH wrote:The other option to look at would be dealing for someone who has another year on their current deal. Nash out of Columbus or Kovalchuk out of Atlanta would fit Don Cherry's idea of a superstar addition...but they will not be cheap, but are not a rental either.
This is more in line with my thoughts. If you are going to trade do it for something that has potential of lasting a little longer term. In these cases, even if we couldn't resign the players, we could flip them over next trade deadline and reacquire assets.
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Re: WHO should the Canucks get with their freed-up cap space?

Post by dr.dork » Fri Jan 09, 2009 5:05 pm

Island Nucklehead wrote: I'm not saying mortgage the whole farm. But to think we need to hold onto guys like Raymond and Schneider is lunacy. There is very little chance that Schneider will be as good as Luongo. In fact I'm willing to put money on it. Right now he's a great piece of trade bait and we should use him as such. I'm not sold on Raymond either, he's fast and has some skill but by no means is he part of our core.
It is a tough call, but most likely we will see how it goes between now and the trade deadline. If, with Louie and Sundin, we are approaching Detroit/San Jose callibre, we probably have to go for it. Otherwise, we go with what we got.

Raymond is probably expendable, I'm not so sure about Schneider. I think Schneider is the type of prospect you don't give up on. We give up on him when Louie signs.

The problem with your logic, Island, is not whether Raymond is part of our CURRENT core, it is whether he will be part of our FUTURE core. Will Raymond develop into a legit top 6 ? He isn't there yet, but will he get there ? Who knows, but there is a risk that we lose a good prospect and get nothing in return (other than a short term rental that doesn't put us over the top).

Either way, currently we are very average. On paper with Sundin and Luongo back, we might be better. By the trade deadline maybe we will look better/worse. We would be stupid to mortgage the farm today based on what we look like on paper.

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Re: WHO should the Canucks get with their freed-up cap space?

Post by Mikodat » Fri Jan 09, 2009 5:28 pm

Either way, currently we are very average. On paper with Sundin and Luongo back, we might be better. By the trade deadline maybe we will look better/worse. We would be stupid to mortgage the farm today based on what we look like on paper.


Without Sundin, Loungo, Salo and Johnson... this is a .500 hockey club... Is kinda saying that without Sakic, Roy,Bourque etc.. Avalanche were average 4 years ago , when they won the cup.. We've been playing without a #1 Center, a top goaltender, our best PP point man and our best shot blocking defensive forward for quite a while and still playing .500 hockey.. I, for one, think that this is the year to go for it.. Bring in the best rental winger for the playoff run.. and if pockets are deep enough add a dman.. Right now we are overloaded with "maybe" talent.. Raymond, Hanson, Jaffray, Schneider, etc.. If Sundin gels with the club we will never see a better time to go deep in the playoffs and just might bring home that dammmm cup :)
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Re: WHO should the Canucks get with their freed-up cap space?

Post by nucklehead88 » Fri Jan 09, 2009 5:48 pm

we have been playing with a 3rd string goalie for a month and a half and we are 3 points off third place. people this "average team" is 6th in the league in scoring, without sundins help, add oone more 20-30 goal scorer and just imagine the possibilities. the devils won a cup a few years back with no bonified superstar scorer, just a tough d-core and an all star goalie....both we have. plus we have a front end thats working all together as one unit to be in the top 6 in scoring. now you have demitra and sundin with the experience, the sisters with the chemestry, mitchell bieksa ohlund and o'brian holding down the fort and standing up to everyone, and luongo coming back real soon and two good goalies supporting him, boys and girls we have something special here.
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Re: WHO should the Canucks get with their freed-up cap space?

Post by dr.dork » Fri Jan 09, 2009 6:32 pm

nucklehead88 wrote:we have been playing with a 3rd string goalie for a month and a half and we are 3 points off third place. people this "average team" is 6th in the league in scoring, without sundins help, add oone more 20-30 goal scorer and just imagine the possibilities. the devils won a cup a few years back with no bonified superstar scorer, just a tough d-core and an all star goalie....both we have. plus we have a front end thats working all together as one unit to be in the top 6 in scoring. now you have demitra and sundin with the experience, the sisters with the chemestry, mitchell bieksa ohlund and o'brian holding down the fort and standing up to everyone, and luongo coming back real soon and two good goalies supporting him, boys and girls we have something special here.
Look, my rose coloured glasses are the rosiest. I only said we are average based on our current record. In reality we are sandbaggin' cup champs. Get the parade route ready.

(The dork stops and takes off rose coloured glasses). But we haven't proven anything other than proving we are average without Luongo and Sundin. Are we special with both ? What do we do if someone asks for Hodgson and Schneider ?

I would like to wait a bit. I'm not sure if I am ready to give up on both Schneider and Raymond for a shot. I guess depends on whether it is a rental or someone signed through next year. And of course who it is.

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Re: WHO should the Canucks get with their freed-up cap space?

Post by Farhan Lalji » Fri Jan 09, 2009 7:15 pm

Mikodat wrote:
Either way, currently we are very average. On paper with Sundin and Luongo back, we might be better. By the trade deadline maybe we will look better/worse. We would be stupid to mortgage the farm today based on what we look like on paper.


Without Sundin, Loungo, Salo and Johnson... this is a .500 hockey club... Is kinda saying that without Sakic, Roy,Bourque etc.. Avalanche were average 4 years ago , when they won the cup.. We've been playing without a #1 Center, a top goaltender, our best PP point man and our best shot blocking defensive forward for quite a while and still playing .500 hockey.. I, for one, think that this is the year to go for it.
Amen to that! It's amazing how many "objective" posters, people, and media continue to disregard the Canucks. I'd like to see how Calgary would do without Iginla and Kipper....or San Jose without Thornton and Nabakaov. Maybe when those guys "shit the bed" without those guys, we can then lay judgment on how they "look on paper." (LOL).

The truth of the matter is this:

-Without Sundin and with Luongo at the start of the year, the Canucks were 8 games over .500. They were one of the top teams BOTH defensively AND offensively.

-When Luongo comes back and if he can find his early season level after 'x' number of games, combined with the acquisition of SUNDIN....you know...that guy who's been one of the best players in the league throughout his entire career...why the F##CK *shouldn't* we be mentioned in the same sentence as Detroit, San Jose, and Boston?

-ON PAPER, this team is the WCE era (01-04) combined with our 06/07 line-up. At 90%+ health, we are as deadly up front as the WCE era was, and we're just as solid in net and 'D' as the 06/07 line-up was.

It seems to me, that the only ones being IMPATIENT here, are the people that are laying judgment on this team WITHOUT taking Luongo and a non-rusty Sundin into consideration.

If Luongo leaves this team after next season and we see Raymond and Hodgson develop......seriously....what's the fucking point?!? All you're doing is re-arranging assets. Same pile...different shit. Aren't Canuck fans sick of this same old story? Again - look at how "different" our 06/07 team was from 01/04. Almost the polar opposite. Look at our end result.

Compare our 05/06 team to our 07/08. Again...almost the polar opposite in terms of styles and strengths. Look at the end result.

Bottom line? I am NOT saying that the Canucks should sacrifice the farm (depending on what your definition of that is). Hodgson is a keeper. What I am saying however, is that having Luongo, a solid 'D' (when healthy), tremendous depth at center, and a team that is efficient on both offense and defense (when healthy) should not be disregarded.

If the Canucks literally are one player away from being a serious contender, then fuck Raymond and a 1st if they can bring us "that guy."

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Re: WHO should the Canucks get with their freed-up cap space?

Post by Cornuck » Fri Jan 09, 2009 7:59 pm

^^ Agreed for the most part.

The game against San Jose will be a good indicator of where this is at. Yes, we won't be 100%, but even if we lose but battle for the full 60 minutes, it will show what this team is made of. From there we'll just have to be content to watch and see how this develops until the deadline.
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Re: WHO should the Canucks get with their freed-up cap space?

Post by the toucan kid » Fri Jan 09, 2009 8:20 pm

Have to disagree Cornuck, without Luongo it can't be determined how we stack up the Sharks. I'm in the camp of people who think that with a healthy Luongo, healthy Salo (haha), and a recuperated, but integrated Sundin, we're among the league's best teams.

Detroit has no goalie meaning it's tough, but doable. The Sharks are a team built around Joe Thornton, which means come playoff time they will under perform - at this point the burden of proof is on Thornton, if you ask me- and might be susceptible to an upset if Luongo can muster up an Anaheim '07 effort. Boston? EVERYTHING is going there way, can't hold up forever. Yes, there are caveats with all of this, but far fewer than we normally have to drudge up in order to present a case for the Canucks as contenders. This team is finally good upfront, on D, in net, and has room to improve. We will have to tear this house down pretty soon, but the future isn't waiting in the minors, so we might as well give it all we can before the opportunity is gone. A long rebuild is in the wings either way, JUST GO FOR IT.

This is the best chance we're going to have, in my estimation, for a long, long time.

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Re: WHO should the Canucks get with their freed-up cap space?

Post by Mozy » Sat Jan 10, 2009 11:09 am

Cornuck wrote:^^ Agreed for the most part.

The game against San Jose will be a good indicator of where this is at. Yes, we won't be 100%, but even if we lose but battle for the full 60 minutes, it will show what this team is made of. From there we'll just have to be content to watch and see how this develops until the deadline.
I really think Sanford should have gotten the start against the Blues and then Barbie got the shot against the Sharks. Barbie's been the better goalie, Sanford would've been able to handle the Blues. Now that's all screwed up and Sanford's in the hotseat against the best team in the NHL.
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Re: WHO should the Canucks get with their freed-up cap space?

Post by Farhan Lalji » Sat Jan 10, 2009 11:18 am

the toucan kid wrote:
This is the best chance we're going to have, in my estimation, for a long, long time.
What really blows my mind, is how many people believe that the Canucks will automatically re-sign the likes of Luongo, Ohlund, and the Sedin twins. For all we know, the Canucks only sign HALF of these players.

These people then think, "No worries....if we can't sign these guys, then we'll just use the cap space to sign someone else."

As we saw in 07/08, it can often be VERY difficult to sign and/or trade for players even with lots of cap space. Heck - even with so much freed up cap space, the Canucks barely beat out NYR.

My main point is this: What's the point of getting a 'hard on' in believing that Schneider, Raymond, Hodgson, and I dunno....Grabner will become significant impact players "one day" if we don't even know if we'll have a lot of our current core? (i.e. Luongo, Ohlund, Sedin twins etc.). Especially in horrid economic times (and off topic, I highly suspect that things will get far worse), NOTHING is guaranteed.

It's stupid to sacrifice the entire farm, but it's equally stupid to not make that "final push" by getting that one extra player.

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Re: WHO should the Canucks get with their freed-up cap space?

Post by Cornuck » Sat Jan 10, 2009 12:43 pm

the toucan kid wrote:Have to disagree Cornuck, without Luongo it can't be determined how we stack up the Sharks. I'm in the camp of people who think that with a healthy Luongo, healthy Salo (haha), and a recuperated, but integrated Sundin, we're among the league's best teams.
I'm in that camp too, but a game against a juggernaut like the Sharks will test the team's character. It's unlikely they'll win, but their response to a greater opponent while they have injuries should show us something. It would be easy for them to fold, or they could rise to the challenge and at least compete for 60 minutes. Since they took most of last night's game off (and the Sharks played last night too) - they should have something in the tank tonight.
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Re: WHO should the Canucks get with their freed-up cap space?

Post by Farhan Lalji » Sat Jan 10, 2009 1:19 pm

Cornuck wrote:
I'm in that camp too, but a game against a juggernaut like the Sharks will test the team's character.
Oddly enough, I'll have to disagree here.

I think the TRUE test of a team's character, is when they DON'T necessarily "have to win"....or "prove themselves." It's when a team DOESN'T have to 'prove themselves' and take care of the bottom feeders, is when a team's true character is tested in my opinion (obvious exception to this is any post-season game obviously).

Case in point: Look at how teams like Detroit have regularly dismantled teams that they were expected to beat. A large part of true character is CONSISTENCY in my opinion. The ability to show up to all/most of your games and put forth a consistent effort, is true character in my opinion.

As it relates to the Canucks - I have no doubt that they'll come out all pissed off tonight and give San Jose a good run for their money. However....that's not true character in my opinion. True character would've been last night....if the Canucks had shown the prosper respect to an NHL-level franchise in the St. Louis Blues....and had taken them to the woodshed. THAT would've been true character in my opinion. Teams like Detroit (for 10+ years running) almost NEVER lose those types of games.

Any team can beat a superior team if they're pissed off enough. Heck - in 05/06, the Canucks had many "we must prove ourselves" type games and actually beat a lot of good teams that year. Did that team have character however? Not even close. That Canuck team pissed away MANY points when they "didn't have to" play well. I saw a lot of that 05/06 team on the ice last night and I was very disturbed by that. This Canucks team has a lot of growing up to do....and they'd better do it fast. If the Canucks piss away the next month, then even a non-rusty Sundin and a healthy Luongo may NOT carry them into the post-season.

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