The 'Sisters' aren't worth the price

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Re: The 'Sisters' aren't worth the price

Post by Cornuck » Wed Jan 07, 2009 2:29 pm

I think the Kings would be one team that could sign the twins and they're also a team that would fit them as well. They have the cap space, they're on the west coast, they have a young team with potential. They'd make a great story for selling tickets and almost complete a line. They could make better players out of Brown or Frolov.

But would the Kings spend the money?
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Re: The 'Sisters' aren't worth the price

Post by Island Nucklehead » Wed Jan 07, 2009 3:04 pm

LA is going to need to invest heavily in their Defence (Jack Johson is an RFA) and their goaltending. They are certainly not in need of two more top 6 forwards with guys like O'Sullivan, Kopitar, Brown, Handzus, Frolov and Moller.

We are definately in a great position to resign these guys and I fully expect it to happen. They are the priority, and I think they will be had for between 5 and 6. Looking at what Sundin left on the table this season, I imagine MG will play to the fact that not only can they stay together, but if they do take hometown discounts it will allow the team to enjoy more success.

Bernier will probably sign for less than the 2.5 he made this year, as his potential was higher than his results have shown thus far. Wellwood will need a raise and I don't think Burrows will be around, but that's no biggie, he replaced Cooke and someone (Brown/Rypien if he's ever healthy) will replace him.

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Re: The 'Sisters' aren't worth the price

Post by Mozy » Wed Jan 07, 2009 8:53 pm

Cornuck wrote:I think the Kings would be one team that could sign the twins and they're also a team that would fit them as well. They have the cap space, they're on the west coast, they have a young team with potential. They'd make a great story for selling tickets and almost complete a line. They could make better players out of Brown or Frolov.

But would the Kings spend the money?
Think of what would happen if you put a shooters shooter (Kopitar) with the Sedins... it would be even better than Anson with the twins
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Re: The 'Sisters' aren't worth the price

Post by jchockey » Thu Jan 08, 2009 5:17 pm

It wouldn't make sense for the Kings either to sign the Sedins when they've got so much young talent and still in the midst of a "re-building" mode. They do have the cap space but with the economic downturn I'm not sure if many teams will be dishing out huge sums of money this summer.
Island Nucklehead wrote:Bernier will probably sign for less than the 2.5 he made this year, as his potential was higher than his results have shown thus far. Wellwood will need a raise and I don't think Burrows will be around, but that's no biggie, he replaced Cooke and someone (Brown/Rypien if he's ever healthy) will replace him.
I can't see Bernier re-signing for less - the only time players do that is to stay with their home team. I would be comfortable handing him a contract between $3-$3.5m/year. Bernier would also be completely dumb to stay for less because I bet there are teams out there that would be willing to give him a raise.

I think Burrows will stick around for longer than Wellwood. I really can't justify giving Wellwood more than $1.5m/year. I hope Burrows doesn't get in over his head like Matt Cooke and asking for an unreasonable raise. Burrows is a much more effective player than Cooke, Brown, or Rypien.

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Re: The 'Sisters' aren't worth the price

Post by Island Nucklehead » Thu Jan 08, 2009 5:53 pm

jchockey wrote: I can't see Bernier re-signing for less - the only time players do that is to stay with their home team. I would be comfortable handing him a contract between $3-$3.5m/year. Bernier would also be completely dumb to stay for less because I bet there are teams out there that would be willing to give him a raise.

I think Burrows will stick around for longer than Wellwood. I really can't justify giving Wellwood more than $1.5m/year. I hope Burrows doesn't get in over his head like Matt Cooke and asking for an unreasonable raise. Burrows is a much more effective player than Cooke, Brown, or Rypien.
It's interesting to note that Bernier has only scored in 6 games this year. Three two goal games. Consistency plagues this guy. He'll go 10 games without a goal, pot 2 and then disappear again. 2.5M was an offer sheet that we had to sign and I don't think he's going to be getting more than that. He's still only on pace for 17 goals (42 pts)...if that's worth 3.5 million I'm shocked. He's not too far removed from putting up Pyatt-esque numbers from last season. (16-21-37).

Also, with the cap supposed to flatline, and maybe decline, we need to be careful where we spend our money. If we're not willing to give the Sedin's more than 5.5M each Bernier sure as shit ain't worth 3.5M.

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Re: The 'Sisters' aren't worth the price

Post by Madcombinepilot » Thu Jan 08, 2009 6:06 pm

Island Nucklehead wrote:
If we're not willing to give the Sedin's more than 5.5M each Bernier sure as shit ain't worth 3.5M.

and with Kesler making million as a third liner, that kinda sets the upper limit for Bernier. Hansen is woth half a mil.. why pay 7 times that for a guy who is going to get 9 more points?

As to Burrows, he is young enough I would attempt to lock him up at 900 to 1.1 for 4 years or so... the chemistry he has with Kesler has him playing like a 2+ million dollar shut down/pest, so 3 years from now, that would be a bargain. I have no problem spending 4 million dollars on out third line. Having the best third line in hockey is somethng that wins you games during the playoffs, and righyt now, we have a darn good one.
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Re: The 'Sisters' aren't worth the price

Post by Mozy » Thu Jan 08, 2009 7:45 pm

As to Burrows, he is young enough I would attempt to lock him up at 900 to 1.1 for 4 years or so... the chemistry he has with Kesler has him playing like a 2+ million dollar shut down/pest, so 3 years from now, that would be a bargain. I have no problem spending 4 million dollars on out third line. Having the best third line in hockey is somethng that wins you games during the playoffs, and righyt now, we have a darn good one.
Thats taking a page right out of Anahiems book. Minus the George Parros Porn Statche.

The only problem with this is I don't expect Kesler to stay on the third line. I don't think anyone that's a proper fan of this team expects him to stay on the third line. But would you then move Burrows up to the second line? That's the question. Hansen will one day make it up to second line, maybe even the first, but does anyone see Burrows moving up there? I mean its happened before when Cooke was moved up to the first line in Bertuzzi's absence. It didnt work well, but it didnt work horribly either.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not proposing eventually moving Burrows to the first line, but to keep him in that role and keep him successful requires keeping the others there and the others will eventually move up
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Re: The 'Sisters' aren't worth the price

Post by jchockey » Thu Jan 08, 2009 9:28 pm

Island Nucklehead wrote: It's interesting to note that Bernier has only scored in 6 games this year. Three two goal games. Consistency plagues this guy. He'll go 10 games without a goal, pot 2 and then disappear again. 2.5M was an offer sheet that we had to sign and I don't think he's going to be getting more than that. He's still only on pace for 17 goals (42 pts)...if that's worth 3.5 million I'm shocked. He's not too far removed from putting up Pyatt-esque numbers from last season. (16-21-37).

Also, with the cap supposed to flatline, and maybe decline, we need to be careful where we spend our money. If we're not willing to give the Sedin's more than 5.5M each Bernier sure as shit ain't worth 3.5M.
Very true, Bernier needs to work on his consistency. However, I think Bernier is going to look for a long-term contract, considering his age, and if that is the case then the Canucks are signing him to dollars based on potential. He has the ability to become a very good second-liner or power forward one day - that is, after all, what the Oilers thought when they signed Dustin Penner, who has turned out to be a huge flop (unsurprisingly). He has much more offensive upside than any of our bottom six and better than Pyatt's.

With the Sedins, you know what you're going to get - point per game production but only if they play together on the same line, may disappear in certain games, and not having shown the ability to carry a team. With Bernier, not so much. He's young, still a little raw, but a lot of potential.

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Re: The 'Sisters' aren't worth the price

Post by Madcombinepilot » Thu Jan 08, 2009 11:33 pm

[quote="Mozy
The only problem with this is I don't expect Kesler to stay on the third line. I don't think anyone that's a proper fan of this team expects him to stay on the third line.[/quote]

'proper fan'?!?!? wtf was that supposed to mean?

Why would you take Kesler out of his comfort spot (third line checking center) a position where he excels, performs above expectations, and move him into a role that is new to him (second line scoring center)?? what is the logical thought process of taking a guy from a spot where he is argurably the best in the league for the dollar he is paid, and put him somewhere else? why would you break up a proven chemisty that he has with another player? why would you take him from a spot where he makes his other linemates better, and put him into a spot where others would to make him better?

What are you going to do with Wellwood (a second line scoring center) and why are you writing off any chance to resign Sundin so soon? Where are you planning to play Cody Hodgeson next year -- yet another top 2 center?

just curious as to your thought process here.
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Re: The 'Sisters' aren't worth the price

Post by Mozy » Fri Jan 09, 2009 12:43 am

Madcombinepilot wrote: The only problem with this is I don't expect Kesler to stay on the third line. I don't think anyone that's a proper fan of this team expects him to stay on the third line.

'proper fan'?!?!? wtf was that supposed to mean?

Why would you take Kesler out of his comfort spot (third line checking center) a position where he excels, performs above expectations, and move him into a role that is new to him (second line scoring center)?? what is the logical thought process of taking a guy from a spot where he is argurably the best in the league for the dollar he is paid, and put him somewhere else? why would you break up a proven chemisty that he has with another player? why would you take him from a spot where he makes his other linemates better, and put him into a spot where others would to make him better?

What are you going to do with Wellwood (a second line scoring center) and why are you writing off any chance to resign Sundin so soon? Where are you planning to play Cody Hodgeson next year -- yet another top 2 center?

just curious as to your thought process here.
A proper fan is one that has half a brain and has an ounce of knowledge about hockey.

Why would you take Kesler out of his comfort squat? Do you want a player over achieving in an inferior position? Or underachieving in a superior position? If you move Kesler and get him to play in a spot that isn't his comfort spot he will adapt and learn to make his new position his comfort spot. I'd rather he move up and adapt and become a better player. Wouldn't you? Or would you settle for less? I mean you know, we have so much offense right now asking for more is just foolish right?

And if he makes his line mates better, wouldn't you rather him elevate his game so that he's making his second line line mates better? To me moving him up is a win win situation. You can't go wrong...

If Sundin wanted to stay more than one year, he would have signed for more than one year. He's 38, he's taken the money, this is seemingly his last ditch effort. Cup or bust. That's why I'm writing him off so soon.

You say he's the best value for the position he pays, if that's the case why not pay the whole third line 2.1 million. He'd be worth what he was paid if he was back scoring 20+ goals a season. He'd be worth the money he gets to play his position if he get 1.5 mill, not 2.1.

Kesler is not going to settle for a 3rd line position much longer. At some point he will leave he there's no chance of him moving up.
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Re: The 'Sisters' aren't worth the price

Post by dangler » Fri Jan 09, 2009 1:13 am

Well since this thread has kinda morphed into what Kesler,Burrows and Bernier are worth ,here goes:
Burrows resigns, 3-5 years @1.5 mill
Kesler 1.75 mill
Bernier 3-5 years @ 2.5 mill., big young RH RW's are hard to come by and the canucks will have to pay for it.

Comes out to an average of arooound $2.1mill each for the best 3rd line in the league.

If I were a older player with a reputation like Sundin,Neidermeyer,Selanne etc. I'd take it 1 year at a time if you got to miss the first half of the season.Who wants to play a 82 game reg. season after being in the league for 15+ years?
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Re: The 'Sisters' aren't worth the price

Post by Madcombinepilot » Fri Jan 09, 2009 3:37 pm

Mozy wrote: A proper fan is one that has half a brain and has an ounce of knowledge about hockey.

Why would you take Kesler out of his comfort squat? Do you want a player over achieving in an inferior position? Or underachieving in a superior position? If you move Kesler and get him to play in a spot that isn't his comfort spot he will adapt and learn to make his new position his comfort spot. I'd rather he move up and adapt and become a better player. Wouldn't you? Or would you settle for less? I mean you know, we have so much offense right now asking for more is just foolish right?

And if he makes his line mates better, wouldn't you rather him elevate his game so that he's making his second line line mates better? To me moving him up is a win win situation. You can't go wrong...

If Sundin wanted to stay more than one year, he would have signed for more than one year. He's 38, he's taken the money, this is seemingly his last ditch effort. Cup or bust. That's why I'm writing him off so soon.

You say he's the best value for the position he pays, if that's the case why not pay the whole third line 2.1 million. He'd be worth what he was paid if he was back scoring 20+ goals a season. He'd be worth the money he gets to play his position if he get 1.5 mill, not 2.1.

Kesler is not going to settle for a 3rd line position much longer. At some point he will leave he there's no chance of him moving up.
so a proper fan is not one who comes on here, makes a couple thousand posts in a couple weeks (sometimes called spamming), changes his name then comes back a year later and does the same thing, thinking nobody noticed? - sorry, I guess I was confused. I am so eternally gratefull that you have educated me in that regard and made me a better person.

Your argument is that you think that be moving Kesler up to the second line, he will get more points. I am afraid I have to disagree with your level of talent assesment. I am not sure how you got that conclusion. he would not get more ice time than he already is (he is getting 2nd line time right now) so his production won't go up dramatically from that, nor would he get better linemates than the ones he has now (statisticly, he out produces everyone on the second line).. and Burrows and Bernier have more points on the third line than Pyatt and Raymond on the second, so we don't really have better linemates to put with him(our basic problem)...so I am not sure how much more 'moving up' there could be... or how he would 'adapt' to it.. so he 'moves up' (on paper), and makes pyatt and raymond better and gets the same ice time and points... big deal. They might produce at the level of Bernier and Burrows. good on them. But thats the top of his talent. he doesn't really get any better than he already is, otherwise, he would have been 'moved up' last season (after he had his best point total ever).. and having him on the second line would make him see the top teams best checkers more often, which would further reduce his effectiveness.

Plus, now we have a hole on third line. I mean really, who do we have thats going to step up and consistently shut down the other teams top lines, and still produce? Wellwood? don't make me laugh.

I don't see a win-win situation there, I see a trainwreck. This team needs scoring talent on the second line, not checking talent.
You say he's the best value for the position he pays, if that's the case why not pay the whole third line 2.1 million
.

Because thats retarded. Why not move out of your mommys basement and pay $1000/ month rent for a place thats advertised at $750?
He'd be worth what he was paid if he was back scoring 20+ goals a season. He'd be worth the money he gets to play his position if he get 1.5 mill, not 2.1
Uhh.. Kesler makes 1.75
http://www.nhlpa.com/WebStats/PlayerBio ... p?ID=27012
If your going to spout off, at least get it right. Kinda makes your 'knowledge' comment pretty tricky, eh?

And as to moving teams, well, Kesler is a class act, committed to this team, and organization. Almost everyone understands that hockey is also a buisness and eventually, another team is going to offer Kesler more than he is worth to us, and he will move on. Thats how it goes in sports. Our goal must be to get the most value out of him for as long as he is here, and right now, we are doing that.

and on to the rest of my comments (which on the surface, you seem to have ignored) you never did answer the questions of what happens to Wellwood, Sundin and how exactly are you going to develop Hodgson again?

perhaps you should scurry back off into CDC...
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Re: The 'Sisters' aren't worth the price

Post by Mozy » Sat Jan 10, 2009 11:04 am

dangler wrote:If I were a older player with a reputation like Sundin, Neidermeyer, Selanne etc. I'd take it 1 year at a time if you got to miss the first half of the season.Who wants to play a 82 game reg. season after being in the league for 15+ years?
It's that attitude in the veteran players that frustrates me. I don't think your reputation should enable you to just screw around with teams and leave them dangling for so long. If you're a player of that reputation and caliber you should either choose to play the full season or take the season off/retire. I think its crap that Sundin can just waltz in and do what he wants when he pleases. Had he said at the start of the year, he was signing, he was going to take half the year off, that would have been fine. Its just aggravating to watch them dipsy doodle around and do nothing, and then out of the blue announce their intentions to re-sign and get everyone on their bandwagon again.
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Re: The 'Sisters' aren't worth the price

Post by the toucan kid » Sat Jan 10, 2009 1:44 pm

But, Mozy, you seem to be neglecting the fact that he didn't know if was going to play. I would think it much worse if he said "I want to play, but only half a season" than " I need more time because I'm just not sure". People seem to believe that, because both Niedermeyer and Sundin decided to play, they were just posturing about retirement. No one has any evidence to that effect, so most of this criticism is unfair.

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Re: The 'Sisters' aren't worth the price

Post by Farhan Lalji » Sat Jan 10, 2009 9:28 pm

My thought with the twins is this:

-These guys, while not elite 1st liners, have proven to be very good 1st line players. The stats back it up.

-However, unless these guys show an ability to raise their game when the team needs them the most, they will NOT have my respect. Period. In the 06/07 playoffs, the Sedin's level of play was lower than what we were accustomed to. Last season, in the final 10 games of the season, the Sedin twins were ineffective and showed no ability whatsoever to carry this team.

As it stands with the Sedins' right now, I view them as a poor man's version of Markus Naslund (i.e. tremendously talented, but no ability to raise one's game when it matters most). In Naslund's case however, he was an elite top 5 player in the NHL for atleast 2-3 seasons (I'll leave up it to others to decide whether that's more impressive than the Sedin's, or less impressive since his playoff disappearances could be labeled as even more disturbing).

If the Sedin's can't raise their games when it matters most, they will never have my respect. I will always respect guys like Linden, Bure, Luongo, Smyl, McLean, and Greg Adams for their ability to raise their games.

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