Offseason grades so far

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Reefer2
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Re: Offseason grades so far

Post by Reefer2 » Fri Jul 12, 2019 8:23 am

Well said UW but there is a wonder if JB would have done this deal if he was not in his last year of his contract?

Based upon this http://www.nhltradetracker.com/user/tra ... Canucks/1 JB has not made many (if any) significant trades such as the Miller one. I for one like the trade, I do believe the Canucks have a "core" that is of the right age and skill, maybe lacking a legit #1 D but what they have now is an improvement over last season.

I am stoked for the new season, can you imagine what Toronto and all the bozos there would do if the Nucks make the playoffs and go further than the Laughs.

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Re: Offseason grades so far

Post by Hockey Widow » Fri Jul 12, 2019 8:26 am

[quote=Nuckertuzzi post_id=348165 time=1562915148 user_id=18565

Wrong, so wrong. Read my earlier posts stating how I 'like' the Myers spending and love the Benn and Ferland signings.

Only "pissing and moaning" was about blowing a 1st and 3rd on what I view as a bad trade because a non-playoff/rebuilding team should never ever be giving away those kinds of assets unless they're getting young building blocks in return..and being stuck with too many bad contracts as a result of PAST spending blunders.
[/quote]

So here are the differences I think.

Blowing a first and third on a non playoff rebuilding team vs I think they are a playoff team and have turned the corner on expecting to be competitive every night to expecting to push for a playoff spot.

Never give away those assets unless they are getting young building blocks vs well J.T. is young, 26, and a top six player. Soneone who we need to support our younger core group and Bo :mrgreen:

Being stuck with too many past contracts....we’ll i agree with that. Time for Benning to shed 1-4 contracts, make cap room, clear roster spots, maybe reclaim a few picks along the way.

I hated giving up that first, I don’t know anyone who wasn’t like wtf initially. Some have rationalized it better than others. But I love the Miller pick up. But I liked the Gudbranson pick up only to regret it later. Perhaps I will come to hate the Miller acquisition or perhaps you will come to like it. Time will dictate how we both view this in the end.

The biggest difference between those that are ok with the summer so far and those that are not seems to be in where we view the Canucks overall in terms of development. Those that feel we should be in rebuild mode a little longer and those ready to turn that page and push for playoff relevance. You need to be in the playoffs to get better and keep on building. You don’t suddenly end a rebuild phase and become a Cup contender. It’s a process.

Well Linden and Benning had that same differing view. Linden is gone, Benning is in charge now.
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Re: Offseason grades so far

Post by rikster » Fri Jul 12, 2019 8:31 am

Reefer2 wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 8:01 am
rikster wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 7:28 am
Nuckertuzzi wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 12:05 am
Strangelove wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 5:35 pm
You've been pissing and moaning about all the spending this off-season, is it your money? :D
Wrong, so wrong. Read my earlier posts stating how I 'like' the Myers spending and love the Benn and Ferland signings.

Only "pissing and moaning" was about blowing a 1st and 3rd on what I view as a bad trade because a non-playoff/rebuilding team should never ever be giving away those kinds of assets unless they're getting young building blocks in return..and being stuck with too many bad contracts as a result of PAST spending blunders.

May've been a little lukewarm on Myers at worse (though approve), but have not complained once about any of the signings this off-season. I'll forgive you for being old but at least try to get it right next time.


....... oh, and while it isn't my money, we may find out sooner than later how bad spending (past) has consequences by way of sweeteners to get out of them (Leaf's already good example, though they're a team who could afford). Worth complaining about? I think so.
With due respect, it sounds like you don't know what you want and want to complain for the sake of complaining...

From the bolded part, this is one of my biggest pet peeves with some fans....making absolute statements that aren't grounded in reality or an understanding of history and being too lazy to provide content to prove your supposed statements of fact...

Google is your friend...

Take care...
With all due respect you come off many time as an arrogant SOB.

Posters can have a different opinion.

Take care....
We weren't talking about opinions, the poster was making a statement of fact that was with all due respect hog wash ...

Me arrogant? Look around and how many shrinking violets do you see?

But if you disagree with my post why not point out where I'm wrong instead of putting your nose into the conversation just to throw an insult my way which seems to be something you enjoy doing.


Take care...

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Re: Offseason grades so far

Post by Hockey Widow » Fri Jul 12, 2019 8:43 am

Blob Mckenzie wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 5:39 am
Does Benning have balls or a gun pointed at his head? He went all in this year. I don’t think he makes the Miller trade if he isn’t in the last year of his contract
I disagree. I do think his back is against the wall and he knows it so he may have been more willing to part with the first but I think the core difference between his vision and Linden’s was when to turn the corner. Linden wanted a slower, longer approach. Benning didn’t. I think he makes this move regardless of his contract position because I believe he believes it’s the right move. Is it? We will see, we will see.
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Re: Offseason grades so far

Post by rikster » Fri Jul 12, 2019 8:54 am

UWSaint wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 8:10 am
Blob Mckenzie wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 5:39 am
Does Benning have balls or a gun pointed at his head? He went all in this year. I don’t think he makes the Miller trade if he isn’t in the last year of his contract
That question is trivial (what's Benning's motivation). The claim "he went all in" is one I agree with. You have this pocket of cap space only once -- it wasn't used last year because there were so many questions about the team; a reasonable argument can be made that it should have been used next year. (Next time there is cap space in significant #s coming off due to contracts, the priority will be bridge or more deals with Pettersson and (assuming he plays well) Hughes).

That's the non-trivial question -- was the decision to go all in this offseason the right one? I don't care if Benning was motivated by internal machismo, fear, or consulted an astrologist.

Then the second non-trivial question is whether in choosing this approach, he chose wisely as to the players acquired and the terms of their acquisition.

There is a necessary precondition to answering the first question affirmatively. The team must have enough in place to make going all in have a reasonable potential of return. Rebuilding teams are rarely going to know for certain that it is the time, and there is doubt here. But if you don't rip off the bandaid, you become Arizona (who still managed to creep up to the cap without ever making a go-for-it move). And here, the Canucks have a superstar in the making, a sniper to support the superstar, a quality second line center, and something better than an absolute mess in goal. They were badly lacking defensive personnel and somewhat lacking scorers. The second part of that "all in" question is whether there were players available to address those needs. The answer, once Edler was resigned, was "yes." Were they good enough is a closer question, but the Canucks happen to be in a division that isn't all that, so the bar isn't as high as it might be. And was the market right? Absolutely; there was a good supply of players (both UFAs and trade opportunities), the salary cap didn't go up like it was anticipated (which trimmed the number of buyers and increased the number of teams looking to trade out talent), and this made market conditions as good as they could reasonably be expected to be for a move.

Moving to the second question, did Benning choose wisely as to the players acquired? Every move was a reasonable one viewed in isolation, filling the right needs with good players, but in accumulation, I'm not convinced it is the right strategy.

The D moves were terrific if the question is are they better today. Myers was the best FA available for the Canucks' needs. The price was high, but not outrageous. Benn was a very reasonable move -- the best player available at that price point. Myers + Benn + Hughes is > Gudbrandson + Hutton + Pouliot and it isn't even close. My only concern is that to get to cup contender status, the Canucks need a different level of all around talent, a true #1. I doubt Hughes will be that player; but my concern is mediated by the fact that true #1s are typically grown, not acquired, because they are rarely on the market. That need wasn't solvable this offseason, and there is no guarantee it would be next season.

As for the offense, the moves were Ferland and Miller. I like both of these players; Miller more (his salary is higher and there is a good reason for that -- the speed is +++ and the skill is +; Ferland brings a playoff style game, but isn't nearly the same talent). And yet it wouldn't surprise me if they are only a marginal upgrade in terms of puck in the net. They are current upgrades, but they are still complimentary-of-the-core players. I think having ice time gaps (who is going to fill this?) is okay when there are numerous contenders. Unlike most here, I think Baertschi (if healthy), Gaudette, and Goldobin all have a reasonable chance to step up their games to be a decent second liners in the NHL given the opportunity, the kind of second liners that playoff teams have (for Baertschi, it isn't even a question of stepping up, its being healthy. He's a 45-50 point guy who isn't a disaster without the puck without improving his game). A reasonable chance might be 33% each -- which works out to about a 70% chance that one of them will. (These guys don't have perfectly equal chances, maybe Virtanen has a chance, and you have to hedge against Pearson regressing -- the point is that if you take an 85% chance plan in free agency, the marginal improvement isn't what you think unless you've already written off the rest of the group).

So overall, I am curious about next season. I think the modest goal of making the playoffs is in reach, and without these moves, the chances would have been far less. As a fan, that's exciting -- new players, more competitive, more reasons to watch. But the overall approach of filling a roster of $3.5 million --> $6 million players who have likely reached their peak (Canucks added 4 guys in this range if you count retaining Edler) isn't the ideal approach, from my perspective. I know that these things weren't necessarily options, but in the abstract, having Stone and a $1M Goldobin is better than having Miller and Ferland; having Karlsson and Biega as a 6 is better than having Myers and Edler. And I can't help but thinking that if you are going all in, truly swinging for the fences might have been the way to go. You know, fuck the second line, let's see Panarin with Pettersson and Boeser kind of thing and let's just add one D who will get top 4 minutes.
I think the off season moves also signals that the organization is feeling comfortable that there is enough in the pipeline to start to attack rather than the retreating position rebuilding teams take...

Hard to think back and remember how void of quality prospects the organization had when Benning arrived....

As for the playoffs, I think it boils down to injuries...Not just how healthy the Canucks stay but how healthy do the other teams stay?

Take care...

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Re: Offseason grades so far

Post by Strangelove » Fri Jul 12, 2019 12:13 pm

Nuckertuzzi wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 12:05 am
Strangelove wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 5:35 pm
You've been pissing and moaning about all the spending this off-season, is it your money? :D
Wrong, so wrong.
Am I?

You said "it's ridiculous a non-playoff/rebuilding team is spending to the cap".

Nuckertuzzi wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 12:05 am
Only "pissing and moaning" was about blowing a 1st and 3rd on what I view as a bad trade because a non-playoff/rebuilding team should never ever be giving away those kinds of assets
Well now you're just moving goal posts. :scowl:

That's not what you've been saying and not what I was responding to.

I was responding to you saying "it's ridiculous a non-playoff/rebuilding team is spending to the cap".

You're caught and you know it, try something else Wigglesworth...

Nuckertuzzi wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 12:05 am
I'll forgive you for being old but at least try to get it right next time.
How old am I? :mex:

BTW it's not a a non-playoff/rebuilding team that is spending to the cap

... it's your 2019-20 Vancouver Canucks (a possible non-rebuilding/playoff team).

OMGROFLMAO Nuckertuzzi just got his ass handed to him by an old man, how embarrassing!!! :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: Offseason grades so far

Post by Nuckertuzzi » Fri Jul 12, 2019 12:27 pm

micky107 wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 8:20 am
Stating something as fact when it is unknown, ie ; non playoff, is the part of this paragraph which renders the meaning
of the whole paragraph incorrect.

What am I missing here? Did we not miss the playoffs the past 4 years or am I living in an alternate universe??

I get it, you're talking about the current team and while it is unknown if it's a playoff team this coming year (can say that about any team any year), I am talking about what we do know and what we know is they haven't been a playoff team in a long time, and can absolutely be categorized as a non-playoff/rebuilding team. It is just MY opinion (think this forum is about offer opinions, no?) that we haven't shown enough to declare we're close enough to end the rebuilding process and start making risky moves that has the potential to jeopardize a proper rebuild. And again, the only risky move I have an issue with was the Miller trade, otherwise, I have no problems with the other moves because I don't deem them risky or costly other than $.

I have no problems with anybody disagreeing with me or others, but do have a problem when people get angry or take it personally when you don't share their opinions. The counter arguments have been great so far, for the most part with the exception of a few.

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Re: Offseason grades so far

Post by Strangelove » Fri Jul 12, 2019 12:46 pm

Nuckertuzzi wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 12:27 pm
I have no problems with anybody disagreeing with me or others, but do have a problem when people get angry or take it personally when you don't share their opinions.
Hate to break it to you... young man... but the only one "getting angry/taking it personally" is you. Image

Nuckertuzzi wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 12:27 pm
The counter arguments have been great so far, for the most part with the exception of a few.
They weren't counter arguments so much as... exposing your flawed logic.

(please try not to take it personally)
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Re: Offseason grades so far

Post by Strangelove » Fri Jul 12, 2019 1:02 pm

viewtopic.php?p=347692#p347692

viewtopic.php?p=348127#p348127

Hmmm... posters Nuckster and Nuckertuzzi presenting the same flawed argument:

"Canucks should not spend to the cap next season because they've missed the playoffs the last 4 seasons"
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Re: Offseason grades so far

Post by Nuckertuzzi » Fri Jul 12, 2019 1:12 pm

Strangelove wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 12:13 pm
You keep saying "it's ridiculous a non-playoff/rebuilding team is spending to the cap".
Yeah well once again you misquoted me to support your argument...never once wrote that exact phrase. Said ridiculous that a non-playoff team is at a cap crunch suggesting it could be costly by way of a future asset(s), which is a jab at past spending. Don't have a problem with spending to the cap in an effort to improve as long as they're good decisions, which speaks to this summer's spending. I know there is a fine line difference between those two but there is a difference. I will accept fault for not being clear. You're forgiven, but next time if you're going to quote someone please quote their exact phrases.

Btw, the "old" comment was just a fun jab because I know we've had debates in the past years ago on CC. Good chance I'm older than you but pretty sure you're old.

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Re: Offseason grades so far

Post by Doyle Hargraves » Fri Jul 12, 2019 1:20 pm

Nuckertuzzi wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 1:12 pm
Strangelove wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 12:13 pm
You keep saying "it's ridiculous a non-playoff/rebuilding team is spending to the cap".
Yeah well once again you misquoted me to support your argument...never once wrote that exact phrase. Said ridiculous that a non-playoff team is at a cap crunch suggesting it could be costly by way of a future asset(s), which is a jab at past spending. Don't have a problem with spending to the cap in an effort to improve as long as they're good decisions, which speaks to this summer's spending. I know there is a fine line difference between those two but there is a difference. I will accept fault for not being clear. You're forgiven, but next time if you're going to quote someone please quote their exact phrases.

Btw, the "old" comment was just a fun jab because I know we've had debates in the past years ago on CC. Good chance I'm older than you but pretty sure you're old.
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Re: Offseason grades so far

Post by Nuckertuzzi » Fri Jul 12, 2019 1:25 pm

Blob Mckenzie wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 1:20 pm
Doc is well into his 60s
Then no chance I'm older.

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Re: Offseason grades so far

Post by Strangelove » Fri Jul 12, 2019 1:29 pm

Nuckertuzzi wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 1:12 pm
I know there is a fine line difference between those two but there is a difference.
Hmmm... let's look at that:

1). "It is absolutely ridiculous that we're at a cap crunch when we're not even an established playoff team yet".

2). "It's ridiculous a non-playoff/rebuilding team is spending to the cap".

Lol, yeahno for the purposes of this debate these two are the same there Wigglesworth! :D

Nice try though, well not really...
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Re: Offseason grades so far

Post by Nuckertuzzi » Fri Jul 12, 2019 1:30 pm

Strangelove wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 12:46 pm
Hate to break it to you... young man... but the only one "getting angry/taking it personally" is you.
Yeah well when you suggest someone is "pissing and moaning" for offering an opinion it's pretty obvious who's taking things personally. Was just shooting back at ya, s'all.

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Re: Offseason grades so far

Post by Strangelove » Fri Jul 12, 2019 1:30 pm

Nuckertuzzi wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 1:25 pm
Blob Mckenzie wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 1:20 pm
Doc is well into his 60s
Then no chance I'm older.
Lol Blob also says I'm a fat midget that works at MacDonalds...
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