Offseason grades so far

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Diehard1
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Re: Offseason grades so far

Post by Diehard1 » Wed Jul 10, 2019 8:04 pm

Diehard1 wrote:
Mon Jul 01, 2019 9:34 pm
With the caveat that there’s still lots of time to make extra moves, my thoughts on what Jimbo et al have down so far:

Draft - B+ - this would have likely been an A had they not traded away their 3rd rounder. Podz was a good, risky pick at 10. He wasn’t what I expected but then again I didn’t think Jimbo would go for a Russian. Kudos to him for having some balls. Hoglander was a great pick and I see him being a top 6 forward here for years to come, top 9 at worst. Keppen has potential in the 4th round. The rest of them were all over the map but seemed like decent swings at potential. No D drafted is a bit concerning though Jimbo is right to point out they’ve spent a lot of time and money there lately in both the draft and FA.

Trades - C - Miller was an overpayment, especially when seeing what guys like Colin Miller got in return. I like the player but would have preferred Nyqvist for nothing but dollars and keeping the 1st and 3rd - he wanted to come here too to play with Petey, so it could have happened. Miller is a bit younger but the contract and production is basically the same and you keep the assets. The Francis Perron deal has the potential to produce some NHL depth but it’s not enough to move the needle.

Free Agency - B+ - like Myers signing is fine, ya it’s too much money and probably a year too long, but I don’t think it’s going to be a Loui-esque killer contract. The Benn contract is a good one for a versatile depth defender. The Fantenburg deal is whatever, depth signing. The goalie and Graovac are for Utica. Myers is a B signing, Benn an A so the grade is right in between.

Re-signings - A - the Edler contract is a no brainer at good term and dollars.

RFA signings - incomplete - Boeser, Goldy, Leivo, Boucher, Perron, Teves and Rafferty all need new deals. None signed yet but the big one is Brock and hopefully Jimbo gets him signed to a nice long term deal. Update - Motte signed for 1 year and $925k which is right about what was expected.

Overall to date - a solid B+. The draft was good, the Miller trade was an overpayment even if he’s a nice player that will fit in well. The UFA signings were better than expected both in term and dollars spent. The RFA signings are still to come. If Jimbo signs them all he has 16 forwards and 12 D on the roster so Utica should have some good players and there’s room to move out some bodies, I will update this later in the summer as it’s likely we won’t see much else happen for the next month or two.
Have to up the free agent signing portion of this off-season to an A now. Jimbo needed 2 top 6 forwards and 2 dmen to play in their top 6 and he got all of them. You can argue the contracts were a bit too long but the dollars seem right and the team is definitely better than it was.

The RFA signings have been good so far as well - subject to the big one still to come of course.

The only iffy piece of business he’s done so far is to overpay for Miller with a 1st but the rest has been solid.

Good job Jimbo, he’s getting dangerously close to an A this offseason. If he gets Boeser on a decent deal and can ship out some deadwood - of which there is a lot - he will get an A from me.

Isn’t it amazing how even the ‘Benning Bashers’ like me and Blob like it when Jimbo does a good job? It’s almost like we were objective or something..... :D

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Re: Offseason grades so far

Post by Strangelove » Wed Jul 10, 2019 8:23 pm

Diehard1 wrote:
Wed Jul 10, 2019 8:04 pm
Isn’t it amazing how even the ‘Benning Bashers’ like me and Blob like it when Jimbo does a good job? It’s almost like we were objective or something..... :D
... or the Benning Bashers are beginning to see Brilliant Benning will by and by make Benning bashing seem absolutely absurd? ;)
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Re: Offseason grades so far

Post by Blob Mckenzie » Wed Jul 10, 2019 8:30 pm

Strangelove wrote:
Wed Jul 10, 2019 8:23 pm
Diehard1 wrote:
Wed Jul 10, 2019 8:04 pm
Isn’t it amazing how even the ‘Benning Bashers’ like me and Blob like it when Jimbo does a good job? It’s almost like we were objective or something..... :D
... or the Benning Bashers are beginning to see Brilliant Benning will by and by make Benning bashing seem absolutely absurd? ;)
Nahhh he gets a bat when he deserves one.

And he deservedly gets a pat on the back this year even if I hate seeing that first rounder go
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Re: Offseason grades so far

Post by rikster » Wed Jul 10, 2019 8:49 pm

Diehard1 wrote:
Wed Jul 10, 2019 8:04 pm
Diehard1 wrote:
Mon Jul 01, 2019 9:34 pm
With the caveat that there’s still lots of time to make extra moves, my thoughts on what Jimbo et al have down so far:

Draft - B+ - this would have likely been an A had they not traded away their 3rd rounder. Podz was a good, risky pick at 10. He wasn’t what I expected but then again I didn’t think Jimbo would go for a Russian. Kudos to him for having some balls. Hoglander was a great pick and I see him being a top 6 forward here for years to come, top 9 at worst. Keppen has potential in the 4th round. The rest of them were all over the map but seemed like decent swings at potential. No D drafted is a bit concerning though Jimbo is right to point out they’ve spent a lot of time and money there lately in both the draft and FA.

Trades - C - Miller was an overpayment, especially when seeing what guys like Colin Miller got in return. I like the player but would have preferred Nyqvist for nothing but dollars and keeping the 1st and 3rd - he wanted to come here too to play with Petey, so it could have happened. Miller is a bit younger but the contract and production is basically the same and you keep the assets. The Francis Perron deal has the potential to produce some NHL depth but it’s not enough to move the needle.

Free Agency - B+ - like Myers signing is fine, ya it’s too much money and probably a year too long, but I don’t think it’s going to be a Loui-esque killer contract. The Benn contract is a good one for a versatile depth defender. The Fantenburg deal is whatever, depth signing. The goalie and Graovac are for Utica. Myers is a B signing, Benn an A so the grade is right in between.

Re-signings - A - the Edler contract is a no brainer at good term and dollars.

RFA signings - incomplete - Boeser, Goldy, Leivo, Boucher, Perron, Teves and Rafferty all need new deals. None signed yet but the big one is Brock and hopefully Jimbo gets him signed to a nice long term deal. Update - Motte signed for 1 year and $925k which is right about what was expected.

Overall to date - a solid B+. The draft was good, the Miller trade was an overpayment even if he’s a nice player that will fit in well. The UFA signings were better than expected both in term and dollars spent. The RFA signings are still to come. If Jimbo signs them all he has 16 forwards and 12 D on the roster so Utica should have some good players and there’s room to move out some bodies, I will update this later in the summer as it’s likely we won’t see much else happen for the next month or two.
Have to up the free agent signing portion of this off-season to an A now. Jimbo needed 2 top 6 forwards and 2 dmen to play in their top 6 and he got all of them. You can argue the contracts were a bit too long but the dollars seem right and the team is definitely better than it was.

The RFA signings have been good so far as well - subject to the big one still to come of course.

The only iffy piece of business he’s done so far is to overpay for Miller with a 1st but the rest has been solid.

Good job Jimbo, he’s getting dangerously close to an A this offseason. If he gets Boeser on a decent deal and can ship out some deadwood - of which there is a lot - he will get an A from me.

Isn’t it amazing how even the ‘Benning Bashers’ like me and Blob like it when Jimbo does a good job? It’s almost like we were objective or something..... :D
Hi Die Hard...

Saw an interesting stat on twitter earlier today...

With the deal the Hawks and the Sabres recently pulled off, the Hawks have just 1 (Kane) of their 10 First Round picks from 2007 to date still in their system....

As far as rating Benning's work this year, while I'm a big Benning supporter the real test for me is how good is his management team at maneuvering around the cap ceiling?...

We are about to see...

And I'm readying myself for the whining and complaining that is surely to come when he moves a fan favorite out for something like picks in return...

In the meantime, all of this worrying and angst over the cap in July?

Come on guys, relax...

Take care...

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Re: Offseason grades so far

Post by Diehard1 » Wed Jul 10, 2019 9:04 pm

Hi Rikster,

Regarding the Hawks, they have 3 cups in the past 10 years. Who really cares if they have any of their own 1s rounders on their team if that’s the case? I saw that comment too and I have no idea what the point was - should you trade your picks? Keep them and trade for other players? Only keep those picks who are superstars? Not sure what the point was there.

I care about cap space for one reason only - the ability to add further players to the team in order to advance the agenda of winning. If you overpay one player it limits your ability to pay market for another and so on. Jimbo has never seemed to grasp this; it’s his biggest failing by far IMHO.

I read today that Vancouver has 10 forwards making more than $3 million per year, or will once Boeser is signed. No other team has more than 8, and our 10 doesn’t even include Spooner who was bought out and would have made it 11. Jimbo definitely isn’t shy to spend Aquaman’s money, it’s just a question of if he’s spending it wisely and given he’s the only one in the league spending like he does it’s difficult to say he’s been good with his cap space.

Jimbo has created a headache for himself in his cap situation and given the only deal left from the previous regime on the books is Tanev’s final year, he has himself fully to blame. He’s going to need to be creative to get out of the cap mess he’s created so let’s see how he does it. I disagree there will be any whining any complaint if he moves players out for picks - in fact I think he would be praised for buying FA assets and turning around and selling his current players for future assets. It’s the best case scenario IMHO given he’s already given up a huge asset for Miller.

As for cap angst in July - what else should we be talking about? It’s free agent season, time to give big contracts and then figure out how they fit into the team. Right now the math doesn’t work but there’s still plenty of time to figure it out so let’s see what Jimbo has up his sleeve.

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Re: Offseason grades so far

Post by Hockey Widow » Wed Jul 10, 2019 10:41 pm

I think Benning has had his best off season yet. The only anxiety I have is the same one most do, giving up that conditional first. If Miller comes as advertised+ then it will be easier to take. If we make the playoffs at least once in the next two years it will be easier to take. If he can recover that first somehow it will be easier to take.

I love his drafting this year, can’t wait for the next two years to fly by and get to see some of those guys.

Loved how he managed cap, term and trade protection with his UFA signings. But also the fit was good this year.

Prior years he didn’t do so well. Ericksson was a bad move. Beagle, who I like, was a redundant piece. Schaller a wast of space. Love the Roussel signing.

At least we have owners, and a GM, willing to spend to the cap!

If he can get out from under 1,2 or 3 of those bad deals I’ll be thrilled. I have no doubt we will be cap compliant come opening night. He has no choice but to be so. It’s all in how he pulls it off.

Moving forward I’m not worried about the cap. Each year we have significant contracts expiring.

I give him a solid B+ and will gladly give him an A or even A + if he can pull off some magic and make a few players disappear with hurting us too much.
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Re: Offseason grades so far

Post by Nuckertuzzi » Thu Jul 11, 2019 1:10 am

Real nervous the other shoe is Jake. Not for dumping his peanut sal but the sweetener needed to dump bigger sal. I know he has his share of detractors and that's fair, I'm not totally sold on him either nor am I confident he's on the verge of turning any corners, but reality is the chance is there even if it's small. The real issue I have is we're talking about a kid who, though shouldn't be anywhere near the top 6, is big, fast, scored 15 times AND is on a miniscule ticket in a contract year. To toss that aside in a throw-in as a means to solve the crunch could be a real disaster...hell I'd hate to part with that even for a legitimate trade. Need at least one more year before making any decisions on him.

As for the main topic, I really HATE the Miller deal (screams Benning's version of Ballard trade) which otherwise drops a solid B+ down a grade to C+ for me. Draft's hard to know till 5 years from now but appears to be pretty good. Like, don't love Myers signing but a necessary one and love the Benn and Ferland pickups. Shocked people knocking Ferland deal..term not great but 27 y.o.@ 3.5...are you kidding me, we're talking 3.5 not 5.5..compare that to Sutter, Beagle, Loui, etc., Ferland @ 3.5 is a fucking dream.

All in all good summer so far for JB (fall and winter will determine how good or he's gone). Still not convinced we're a playoff team but undoubtedly improved on paper. ....that Miller deal though.

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Re: Offseason grades so far

Post by micky107 » Thu Jul 11, 2019 1:55 am

Na, I don't wanna lose Jake as a toss in either. He's cheap. Has talent. Needs consistency, needs to read the play better.
All the tools are there though. Can see it.
Ferland can help a guy like Jake.
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Re: Offseason grades so far

Post by Diehard1 » Thu Jul 11, 2019 7:16 am

Nuckertuzzi wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 1:10 am
Real nervous the other shoe is Jake. Not for dumping his peanut sal but the sweetener needed to dump bigger sal. I know he has his share of detractors and that's fair, I'm not totally sold on him either nor am I confident he's on the verge of turning any corners, but reality is the chance is there even if it's small. The real issue I have is we're talking about a kid who, though shouldn't be anywhere near the top 6, is big, fast, scored 15 times AND is on a miniscule ticket in a contract year. To toss that aside in a throw-in as a means to solve the crunch could be a real disaster...hell I'd hate to part with that even for a legitimate trade. Need at least one more year before making any decisions on him.

As for the main topic, I really HATE the Miller deal (screams Benning's version of Ballard trade) which otherwise drops a solid B+ down a grade to C+ for me. Draft's hard to know till 5 years from now but appears to be pretty good. Like, don't love Myers signing but a necessary one and love the Benn and Ferland pickups. Shocked people knocking Ferland deal..term not great but 27 y.o.@ 3.5...are you kidding me, we're talking 3.5 not 5.5..compare that to Sutter, Beagle, Loui, etc., Ferland @ 3.5 is a fucking dream.

All in all good summer so far for JB (fall and winter will determine how good or he's gone). Still not convinced we're a playoff team but undoubtedly improved on paper. ....that Miller deal though.
I’m honestly not sure what the other shoe is - would love it to be shipping out Loui but I have no idea how that’s done and what it would take to get rid of him. Perhaps a team wants him if we retain 50%? He’s still overpaid at $3 million but it’s nowhere near as bad and would get half his cap hit off the books.

Other options are Baertschi, Sutter, Pearson, Tanev, etc - lots of guys there that are somewhat redundant. I just don’t see Jake being shipped out as he would be a very good 3rd line winger with either Sutter or Gaudette alongside likely somebody like Roussel on the left. No real reason to get rid of him without some good value in return.

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Re: Offseason grades so far

Post by rikster » Thu Jul 11, 2019 7:21 am

Regarding the Hawks, they have 3 cups in the past 10 years. Who really cares if they have any of their own 1s rounders on their team if that’s the case? I saw that comment too and I have no idea what the point was
I think the point was that that trading away first round picks isn't the end of the world...

Not sure what it is today, maybe social media, but it seems more and more fans and the media just parrot an opinion that is out there...

The " I don't get it" in Vancouver is that the fan base is mostly excited about the teams first round pick from this years draft....

They accept the player having a 2 year contract to play in the KHL because it generally takes a year or two before a quality player makes any kind of impact on an NHL roster...

If the team doesn't make the playoffs this year, many fans and the media think Benning is toast which I take to mean that they want to see the team back in the playoffs now..

The pick they gave away in the Miller deal will at worst be a pick in the draft 2 years from now meaning that it will take at least 4 years before that player is playing significant minutes in the NHL...

The player they got in the deal is a former 1st rounder, drafted 15th overall and is 26 years old...

Kyle Beach...Dylan Olsen...Kevin Hayes...Mark McNeil...

Picks #11...28...24...18...in the drafts after the Kane pick and the beginning of the Hawks dynasty....

Mind you the picks in the 2 drafts before were Toews and Kane at #3 and 1...

So if you are of the mind that the team is giving away a Toews or Kane type pick for Miller and you are prepared to wait 2 years to draft either then you would be upset with the Miller deal...

If you are of the mind that you dealt a Beach or a McNeil for Miller then you are likely ok with the deal....

Take care...

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Re: Offseason grades so far

Post by Diehard1 » Thu Jul 11, 2019 7:51 am

Hi Rikster,

If the point to be made was trading high picks doesn’t matter then it’s about as disingenuous as it gets. The Hawks foundation was built on high picks - Kane, Toews, Keith, Crawford, Seabrook, Bolland, Ladd, Cam Barker (remember him?) were all Hawk picks who played in the team and either contributed or were traded for other contributors.

They also made some great signings (Hossa, Soupy Campbell) and hit the jackpot on a few later picks (Byfuglien, Eager, Bickel). They then had to trade some of these guys to get under the cap but got assets back in return that helped the team. If there’s a team that was built through high picks it was the Hawks.

They then traded other high picks in Teravainen, Schmaltz and Hartman for other assets like Strome and Nicholas Beaudin, who should be part of their next core.

As I said it’s a weird observation because they picked high to get their core to win cups, then picked low because they were winning, then traded their picks either because they had to for cap reasons, or to get other good young players that will be part of their next core. They also have a bunch of good young prospects that will be coming in the future in Dach, Boqvist, Beaudin and high picks that are already playing for the team like Debrincat.

I haven’t liked a few of their trades - Jokiharju for Nylander doesn’t look good for them - but again they built their cup team through good drafting and high picks. They also traded guys who were expendable and got assets back in return. It’s a good way to hopefully keep the good times going after a couple of lean years.

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Re: Offseason grades so far

Post by rikster » Thu Jul 11, 2019 8:56 am

If the point to be made was trading high picks doesn’t matter then it’s about as disingenuous as it gets. The Hawks foundation was built on high picks - Kane, Toews, Keith, Crawford, Seabrook, Bolland, Ladd, Cam Barker (remember him?) were all Hawk picks who played in the team and either contributed or were traded for other contributors.
Agree about the last part of this quote DieHard...

I'm kinda arguing for the sake of arguing and the dynasty in my opinion was built on an elite core group that was better and more numerous than the other teams in the leagues....It was so skilled and there were so many of them that they could rotate secondary players in and out and it didn't much matter to their success....

But all that aside, when you judge the Miller deal it's because you either expect that pick to be a Patrick Kane or you expect it to be a Kyle Beach or maybe somewhere in between...Maybe a JT Miller?

And if you expect the pick to be a Patrick Kane type then you expect the team to be a bottom feeding team in 2 years and you are ok with that....

And it also means that you see no value in Miller as a player nor do you value the contract....

While I can sorta understand the outrage over the deal, well not really because like it or not if you look at it rationally there is no reason to be overly upset and at worse it should be an on the fence type deal....

Take care...

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Re: Offseason grades so far

Post by Hockey Widow » Thu Jul 11, 2019 9:14 am

I think if the Miller deal costs us a top five in either 2020 or 2021 it will be frustrating, not withstanding we’d have to wait a few years to see said player. Well, it won’t cost us a top 15 next year anyway so really worst case is in 2021.

But I think the anxiety is in knowing we still need core pieces and Benning’s drafting has been, overall, good. What I do like is that almost everyone seems to be on board with making the playoffs, no tanking, because that mentality could lead to Tampa getting a good pick. So in that sense ya, we should all be pushing for the playoffs.
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Re: Offseason grades so far

Post by Richardstroker69 » Thu Jul 11, 2019 10:16 am

Hockey Widow wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 9:14 am
I think if the Miller deal costs us a top five in either 2020 or 2021 it will be frustrating, not withstanding we’d have to wait a few years to see said player. Well, it won’t cost us a top 15 next year anyway so really worst case is in 2021.

But I think the anxiety is in knowing we still need core pieces and Benning’s drafting has been, overall, good. What I do like is that almost everyone seems to be on board with making the playoffs, no tanking, because that mentality could lead to Tampa getting a good pick. So in that sense ya, we should all be pushing for the playoffs.
What core pieces are we in need of? If the core guys we got now don’t pan out, it’s retool time. I believe we got a 1d, 1c, 2 top line wingers in pod and boes, and an elite 2nd line c. Goaltending we’re stacked. We got wingers and centers in the system that can easily supplement that core for cheap as well (lind, gadjovich, macewen, hog, Goldie, madden, gaudette, virtanen). We could use some more young dmen but woo, rathbone look good, as does joulevi. If we lose a late first in the next 2 years we can still pick quality dmen in the 2nd round and later.

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Re: Offseason grades so far

Post by Blob Mckenzie » Thu Jul 11, 2019 10:18 am

I’d say we lack a couple young pieces yet. I’d love to see an all situations type young D man in the system like a Noah Dobson type. And probably another dynamic forward or two preferably one being a centre man. But all in all it’s the healthiest it’s been in years.
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