Trade rumours & armchair pipe dreams 19-20 Sponsored by SKYO

Welcome to the main forum of our site. Anything and everything to do with the Vancouver Canucks is dicussed and debated here.

Moderator: Referees

Post Reply
User avatar
Meds
CC Legend
Posts: 6770
Joined: Mon Jul 11, 2011 8:50 pm

Re: Trade rumours & armchair pipe dreams 19-20 Sponsored by SKYO

Post by Meds » Tue Jul 09, 2019 2:18 am

Hockey Widow wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2019 4:48 pm
GMs have to learn. Unfortunately it seems most never do. Benning was blindly foolish signing Ericksson. He was foolish to chase Lucic. Most people said so at the time. Did he learn? I think he did. It should be hard for him to get out from under Ericksson’s contract. It should be excruciating for him.
No, it wasn't foolish. $6M for a guy who could skate, play 200ft, PP and PK, and score 50-60 points is a good price so long as term is reasonable depending upon the player's age.

Prior to coming here there had never been a report of Eriksson having character issues, and Benning would have known since he was the Assistant GM in Boston who allegedly was a guy the players really liked. Loui becoming a 30 point sloth who would rather complain in the press and not answer his employer's calls is on Loui, not Benning.

User avatar
rikster
MVP
MVP
Posts: 436
Joined: Mon Aug 09, 2004 6:41 am

Re: Trade rumours & armchair pipe dreams 19-20 Sponsored by SKYO

Post by rikster » Tue Jul 09, 2019 7:13 am

Meds wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 2:18 am
Hockey Widow wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2019 4:48 pm
GMs have to learn. Unfortunately it seems most never do. Benning was blindly foolish signing Ericksson. He was foolish to chase Lucic. Most people said so at the time. Did he learn? I think he did. It should be hard for him to get out from under Ericksson’s contract. It should be excruciating for him.
No, it wasn't foolish. $6M for a guy who could skate, play 200ft, PP and PK, and score 50-60 points is a good price so long as term is reasonable depending upon the player's age.

Prior to coming here there had never been a report of Eriksson having character issues, and Benning would have known since he was the Assistant GM in Boston who allegedly was a guy the players really liked. Loui becoming a 30 point sloth who would rather complain in the press and not answer his employer's calls is on Loui, not Benning.
In a perfect world you pay contracts in arrears on 1 year terms...Once the season is over you give out contracts based on what the players did that season.....You do the same year after year....

But that is la la land stuff, what the league does is guarantee a price for future performance for up to 7 or 8 years which it has no way of knowing if the player will live up to the contract, get injured, have off ice issues or anything else that happens in real life which affect his play....sometimes the league changes its rules which can affect a players performance....

Or the league can sometimes arbitrarily penalize a team for breaking a rule that was legal at the time it was made as in the Luongo recapture penalty....

They do this in an auction type system where teams bid against themselves....And to make it even more risky, they give the teams a small window in which to negotiate and sign the players....

Reminds me of the old days on the water before fisheries instituted quotas....Boats congregating waiting for the opening of the fisheries season and when the bell went off it was bedlam with captains shooting at each other if they thought someone was cheating and nobody knowing when the bell would sound again to end the season....

And little is made of the escrow system where when it was first implemented the league envisioned that some teams would spend near the floor and some teams would spend near the ceiling and when you averaged it out, they collectively spent near the middle...

In fact, most teams are now spending near the ceiling and escrow is becoming a major issue for the teams and the players...

And under this system some times, actually many times they make mistakes....

To make matters more risky, gone are the days of the second contract and today RFA's are being signed to very expensive, multi year contracts after having played in the league for only 3 years....

For the first time since I can remember pundits and former GM's are talking about a new contract predicting it will be a value contract during the first few years and a gross overpayment during the last half of its term...

If only Loui had given the Canucks some value similar to his last year in Boston during the first few years of his deal in Vancouver....

None of this will change and bad contracts will be handed like candy every year by every team at some point....Maybe not this year and maybe not next year but like death and taxes they will be given out...

When you look at good deals and bad deals, leverage is the key....

Edler didn't want to leave Vancouver and didn't want to retire and the team was able to re sign him to a value contract....

Kesler wanted to leave Vancouver and had control of his destination and limited the team to 1 option and when the team traded him they didn't get full value....

Blame the players or blame the teams, but also blame the system for not having a better tool than the one it has now for flushing out dead contracts...

Take care...

User avatar
Madcombinepilot
MVP
MVP
Posts: 3369
Joined: Mon Aug 09, 2004 9:54 am
Location: Saskatoon, Sk.

Re: Trade rumours & armchair pipe dreams 19-20 Sponsored by SKYO

Post by Madcombinepilot » Tue Jul 09, 2019 8:16 am

Blob Mckenzie wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2019 7:26 pm
SKYO wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2019 7:10 pm
And christ it's only July 8th, still got a few months to make some cap saving moves.

Plus if we do make some moves, I wonder if Vegas would clear some cap by moving Reaves?
He'd be wicked on our 4th line while providing some protection for Petey and Boeser.
I’d take Reaves at 2.75. I’m sure many of the pantywaists on the board would scream bloody murder, but I’d take him in a heartbeat. The Canucks play in fear far too often.

With Clarkson on IR, they need cheap guys, and depth defence. Goldobin and Sautner/teves/rafferty.. and (to many' she chagrin) the infamous Jimmies 3rd...
The 'Chain of Command' is the chain I am going to beat you with until you understand I am in charge.

User avatar
vic
CC Hall of Fan Member
Posts: 1080
Joined: Fri Jul 22, 2011 5:29 pm

Re: Trade rumours & armchair pipe dreams 19-20 Sponsored by SKYO

Post by vic » Tue Jul 09, 2019 10:35 am

rikster wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2019 9:54 pm

And nobody saw the Luongo retirement coming and it surprises me that not more is being made of the Panthers pretty much admitting that they swayed Loui into retirement vs Long Term Injury to save them cap space with the nudge nudge wink wink being that he will be given a job within the organization at a later date which will surely see him compensated for the millions he walked away from....

If this is true, how is it not cap circumvention? Can the Canucks convince Loui to retire and in return offer him a 2 mil per year scouting position in Sweden for the next 5 years?

ESQ
MVP
MVP
Posts: 2579
Joined: Wed Jul 13, 2011 6:34 pm

Re: Trade rumours & armchair pipe dreams 19-20 Sponsored by SKYO

Post by ESQ » Tue Jul 09, 2019 11:10 am

Blob Mckenzie wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2019 7:26 pm
SKYO wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2019 7:10 pm
And christ it's only July 8th, still got a few months to make some cap saving moves.

Plus if we do make some moves, I wonder if Vegas would clear some cap by moving Reaves?
He'd be wicked on our 4th line while providing some protection for Petey and Boeser.
I’d take Reaves at 2.75. I’m sure many of the pantywaists on the board would scream bloody murder, but I’d take him in a heartbeat. The Canucks play in fear far too often.
Sorry fellas, but I reckon its time to stop adding pricey 4th liners. And especially if we're giving up an asset for them without moving salary the other way.

User avatar
UWSaint
CC 2nd Team All-Star
Posts: 434
Joined: Thu Jul 14, 2011 5:37 pm

Re: Trade rumours & armchair pipe dreams 19-20 Sponsored by SKYO

Post by UWSaint » Tue Jul 09, 2019 11:40 am

rikster wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2019 9:54 pm
The league needs to find a release mechanism to flush out the dead money and re circulate it if it is to continue with a hard cap under the next CBA....
I don't know if this is a concern of the league. Making it expensive and inefficient to flush salary makes the salary cap more effective at its primary purpose -- as a way for owners to create a monopolistic marketplace and keep wages below there they would otherwise go. The caps other purpose -- competitiveness -- doesn't seem to be failing because of these contracts. Teams get into ruts, to be sure, but I don't think this is a league without considerable parity.

More interesting is whether its a concern for the players. Unions tend to have a bias toward seniority. Those players must like the current system -- those are the players most likely to ink deals that provide the least $$ to wins value for the team. Those players, even when they aren't worth their salaries, also have a very strong job protection incentive. More than just money, these players are competitive people, and they want to play.

But the Union must also see that if teams don't suffer the same cap hit penalty for buying out players, then it means more money to go around.

FWIW, I don't think that tweaks will change the structure of things, only slightly tweak the pool of players that will be big winners. The top heavy salary structure that appears to have developed developed for a reason. It is because the marginal value of really good players is enormous. The bad contracts are problems of evaluating who those really good players will be. But the logic is sound. Exploit value from ELCs, have a core built from market/near-market RFAs, add conservatively through UFAs to address weakness, and don't worry all that much about those who aren't the core.

If I were to be critical of JB, of course big contract from busts (Ericksson) hold a team back. Betting on the wrong guy happens, and more than GMs care to admit. Arguably that's an error in strategy insofar as the regularly above-average franchises are not frequent flyers in the UFA market. But a more obvious error in strategy is spending on depth when talent is needed. Would this team really have more value from Beagle + Roussel + Schaller over one far better player and two near league minimum guys? Depth is a great supplement to talent; but generally speaking, depth is shit for its own sake. I totally accept the argument that you have to ice an NHL team, and I thought the MDZ and Vanek signings were very smart to that limited end. (MDZ, not sure what happened there, but the exposure was minimal because the term was minimal). But it isn't smart to target a strategy of locking in bottom 6 guys to multi year deals when there is need elsewhere.
Hono_rary Canadian

User avatar
Reefer2
MVP
MVP
Posts: 5027
Joined: Wed Jan 04, 2012 8:47 am

Re: Trade rumours & armchair pipe dreams 19-20 Sponsored by SKYO

Post by Reefer2 » Tue Jul 09, 2019 1:27 pm

Meds wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 2:18 am
Hockey Widow wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2019 4:48 pm
GMs have to learn. Unfortunately it seems most never do. Benning was blindly foolish signing Ericksson. He was foolish to chase Lucic. Most people said so at the time. Did he learn? I think he did. It should be hard for him to get out from under Ericksson’s contract. It should be excruciating for him.
No, it wasn't foolish. $6M for a guy who could skate, play 200ft, PP and PK, and score 50-60 points is a good price so long as term is reasonable depending upon the player's age.

Prior to coming here there had never been a report of Eriksson having character issues, and Benning would have known since he was the Assistant GM in Boston who allegedly was a guy the players really liked. Loui becoming a 30 point sloth who would rather complain in the press and not answer his employer's calls is on Loui, not Benning.
It was foolish on the fact that LE was not a player the Canucks should of signed at the time, unless the length was short. It was at a time when the team was not ready to accept a rebuild and was hoping with the Twins that someone like LE would be enough to make the playoffs.

User avatar
rikster
MVP
MVP
Posts: 436
Joined: Mon Aug 09, 2004 6:41 am

Re: Trade rumours & armchair pipe dreams 19-20 Sponsored by SKYO

Post by rikster » Tue Jul 09, 2019 1:30 pm

I don't know if this is a concern of the league. Making it expensive and inefficient to flush salary makes the salary cap more effective at its primary purpose -- as a way for owners to create a monopolistic marketplace and keep wages below there they would otherwise go. The caps other purpose -- competitiveness -- doesn't seem to be failing because of these contracts. Teams get into ruts, to be sure, but I don't think this is a league without considerable parity.
The other pro sports leagues allow many more ways to flush out dead contracts, whether it be non guaranteed contracts under a hard cap system or soft caps with luxury tax systems with different player exemption rules...

And after this years free agency frenzy, the NBA is considered by many to be the most competitively balanced North American sports league...

The NHL's cap system is a very rigid system with very few escape mechanisms to deal with poor contracts....

It is maybe the simplest of the CBA's and it allows contract terms longer than the other pro sports leagues...

While the NHL allows 7 or 8 year terms, the NBA by comparison allows 4 or 5 year terms....

And its these longer term deals that we are all talking about as being problems for teams today or at some point during their terms...

If the NHL and the NHLPA renew the current system with a few tweeks, the one I have been suggesting is to eliminate a players contract from counting towards the salary cap providing a certain percentage of that contract has been paid to the player...

In Erikkson's case, because of signing bonus he has been paid 75% of his total contract and if he is bought out under the current rules he will be paid nearly 90% of his total contract....

The NHLPA should have no issues because one of its members has been paid nearly 100% of his 6 year contract in 3 years and it knows that the team will re invest the cap hit into another player....

There should be little worry about small markets being able to compete with the richer markets when you consider the escrow situation and how it is impacting players real salaries because so many teams are spending at or near the cap ceiling...

Take care...

User avatar
Reefer2
MVP
MVP
Posts: 5027
Joined: Wed Jan 04, 2012 8:47 am

Re: Trade rumours & armchair pipe dreams 19-20 Sponsored by SKYO

Post by Reefer2 » Tue Jul 09, 2019 1:32 pm

rikster wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 7:13 am

ricky's rant
GMJB is paid to expect the unexpected and plan for it, I would assume he had some idea that Luongo was set to retire. Luongo is 40 freaking years old and has had injuries so it would be the opposite of a genius to assume RL would finish the contract out and not retire. Yes there was an option of RL retiring like Chris Pronger but that was not a guarantee.

If Luongo was to retire is not this year the best time for him to do it as the amount is longer but less per year?

User avatar
rikster
MVP
MVP
Posts: 436
Joined: Mon Aug 09, 2004 6:41 am

Re: Trade rumours & armchair pipe dreams 19-20 Sponsored by SKYO

Post by rikster » Tue Jul 09, 2019 1:45 pm

Reefer2 wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 1:32 pm
rikster wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 7:13 am

ricky's rant
GMJB is paid to expect the unexpected and plan for it, I would assume he had some idea that Luongo was set to retire. Luongo is 40 freaking years old and has had injuries so it would be the opposite of a genius to assume RL would finish the contract out and not retire. Yes there was an option of RL retiring like Chris Pronger but that was not a guarantee.

If Luongo was to retire is not this year the best time for him to do it as the amount is longer but less per year?
It's not just the cap recapture penalty, its also the fact that the players chose to set the cap escalator at .5% rather than the maximum of 5% which is why the cap ceiling came in lower than expected...

The Canucks got a double whammy this season...

Escrow is a function of the CBA which not many understand....

Here are a couple of good articles on the subject...

https://thehockeynews.com/news/article/ ... real-issue

https://theathletic.com/1040912/2019/06 ... -spending/

And with Luongo, if the league wants to charge a penalty after it authorized a contract, take away a draft pick or fine the team....


Take care...

ESQ
MVP
MVP
Posts: 2579
Joined: Wed Jul 13, 2011 6:34 pm

Re: Trade rumours & armchair pipe dreams 19-20 Sponsored by SKYO

Post by ESQ » Tue Jul 09, 2019 2:11 pm

Reefer2 wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 1:32 pm

GMJB is paid to expect the unexpected and plan for it, I would assume he had some idea that Luongo was set to retire. Luongo is 40 freaking years old and has had injuries so it would be the opposite of a genius to assume RL would finish the contract out and not retire. Yes there was an option of RL retiring like Chris Pronger but that was not a guarantee.

If Luongo was to retire is not this year the best time for him to do it as the amount is longer but less per year?
And, Luongo's actual salary dropped to $1.6 mil for the upcoming year.

No wonder his body was screaming NO as he thought of getting ready for a season being paid like a crappy backup. Really, looking at his contract its clear that this was the year he'd retire, there was never a prospect of him lacing them up for under $2 mil in actual salary.

User avatar
Strangelove
Moderator & MVP
Moderator & MVP
Posts: 22219
Joined: Sat Dec 18, 2004 1:13 pm
Location: Lake Vostok

Re: Trade rumours & armchair pipe dreams 19-20 Sponsored by SKYO

Post by Strangelove » Tue Jul 09, 2019 4:28 pm

Reefer2 wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2019 7:30 pm
Strangelove wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2019 5:59 pm
RoyalDude wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2019 5:57 pm
Jimmy walked in to a disaster - Gillis, Aqualini, Sedins, the crybaby media and fans of this city. A no win situation
Right, only a genius could straighten out a situation like that.
#itsallgillisfault
I think everyone on both sides of the aisle agree that Gillis left a big mess for the next guy...
____
GO CANUCKS GO!!!

User avatar
Strangelove
Moderator & MVP
Moderator & MVP
Posts: 22219
Joined: Sat Dec 18, 2004 1:13 pm
Location: Lake Vostok

Re: Trade rumours & armchair pipe dreams 19-20 Sponsored by SKYO

Post by Strangelove » Tue Jul 09, 2019 4:29 pm

Reefer2 wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 1:32 pm
rikster wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 7:13 am

ricky's rant
GMJB is paid to expect the unexpected and plan for it, I would assume he had some idea that Luongo was set to retire.
Just a small part of Gillis' big mess...
____
GO CANUCKS GO!!!

User avatar
The Brown Wizard
CC Legend
Posts: 8899
Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2011 10:19 pm
Location: in the shed with a fresh packed bowl

Re: Trade rumours & armchair pipe dreams 19-20 Sponsored by SKYO

Post by The Brown Wizard » Tue Jul 09, 2019 4:45 pm

Strangelove wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 4:29 pm
Reefer2 wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 1:32 pm
rikster wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 7:13 am

ricky's rant
GMJB is paid to expect the unexpected and plan for it, I would assume he had some idea that Luongo was set to retire.
Just a small part of Gillis' big mess...
Hey only i troll dude with gillis crap this openly
Witchcraft... Oh, but it IS. A dark and terrible magic...

User avatar
Strangelove
Moderator & MVP
Moderator & MVP
Posts: 22219
Joined: Sat Dec 18, 2004 1:13 pm
Location: Lake Vostok

Re: Trade rumours & armchair pipe dreams 19-20 Sponsored by SKYO

Post by Strangelove » Tue Jul 09, 2019 4:47 pm

Uncle dans leg wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 4:45 pm
Hey only i troll dude with gillis crap this openly
:shock:

Trolling is a sin Danny... REPENT!!
____
GO CANUCKS GO!!!

Post Reply