2019 NHL ENTRY DRAFT - Vancouver

[Carl Yagro]

Can you or anyone else here give me some examples where a perennial rebuilding/non playoff team traded their first rounder for a veteran player not named Gretzky and benefitted long term? The ghost of Sam Pollock and myself can wait.

Interesting way of looking at it. Edmonton, Arizona, Ottawa, Buffalo have not traded 1sts. Yet they are the worst franchises for rebuild models.

St Louis, funnily enough, traded 3 of their 8 first rounders prior to winning the cup.

The Jets hoarded all of their picks until 2018, trading away their first and finally, for the first time in franchise history (over 15 years), winning a playoff round.

I don't know if that's the point you are trying to make, but it's a fascinating trend nonetheless.

I think he's asking for rebuilding teams that traded a first rounder, not teams like St. Louis that haven't picked before the 20s in the last 7-8 years.

The only one I can think of off the top of my head is Ottawa for Duchene, and that might be the worst trade of the past 10 years. I'm sure there must be others.

I don't think you can compare the pre-cap Gretzky era to the current cap era where players are getting max contracts right out of their ELCs. That wasn't even the case a few years ago. The window literally opens and closes much faster now.

Even if we had a new GM right now, the Aqua timeline doesn't change... it's playoffs in 19-20 or 20-21. No excuses.

Let's say Tampa gets our 2021 1st rounder. Best case scenario is he comes in 2-3 years, with no guarantees of making an impact in the top-6.

Given the owner mandate and helping the core (Petey, Brock, Bo, Hughes) reach contending status sooner rather than later, a proven top-6, big, youngish, veteran winger on a great contract is a reasonable gamble. He brings the requisite skills they need right now. You can move towards contention in the next 2-3 years or wait for a 1st rounder and other picks to hopefully develop?

Buffalo and Edmonton have been stewing in their messes for years, wasting their core because they don't bring in the right veteran supplements at the right time.

At some point, you gotta shit or get off the pot.

(this isn't directed at you Diehard, just adding to the discussion)

EDIT: Just got to add... 4 years without playoffs after more than a decade of success is not a perennial rebuilding/non playoff team. Buffalo and Edmonton are more in this category. Even the great Detroit franchise (with a fuller cupboard) has now missed 3 years in a row with an avg. of 70 points a season.

With this owner, you can even debate when the rebuilding actually started.

[ESQ]

I think he's asking for rebuilding teams that traded a first rounder, not teams like St. Louis that haven't picked before the 20s in the last 7-8 years.

Right, the Blues were in the tank prior to that, picking #1 and #4 just a few seasons prior to starting to trade their 1sts consistently.

The only one I can think of off the top of my head is Ottawa for Duchene, and that might be the worst trade of the past 10 years. I'm sure there must be others.

There's also the Kessel trade, but that was ten years ago. And the Duchene trade was after a Senators run to the ECF, so I don't think that would qualify necessarily as "perennially rebuilding". And funnily enough, Duchene recouped one 1st, and possibly a second 1st if he resigns in Columbus. I wouldn't call a 15-spot downgrade "the worst trade of the past 10 years", particularly if that second 1st comes along.

[Meds]

JB's name has been associated with pretty much every single player and trade rumour this off-season. That doesn't sound like tunnel vision to me. That sounds like a GM exploring all of his options.

That may be true, but the overpayments for Guddy, Vey, Pedan, Philip Larsen, Sutter, Prust and now JT Miller show that he either zeroes in on one player and overpays for him, or he's just a horrible trader.

I think it's a combination of both, but we also tend to form opinions based on our most recent previous experiences.

Gillis was a shrewd negotiator when it came to keeping term and AAV manageable.....but he did so at the cost of giving out NTC's and NMC's to half the roster. He was an abysmal drafter, and sub par on the trade front. How many times did we hear strong rumours about a trade involving Vancouver giving up a 1st or 2nd round pick, and we all liked what that return was supposed to be, only to have nothing happen, see the asset we wanted traded elsewhere for a cost that we could have beat, and then listen to Eye Bags Gillis say, "There just wasn't anything that made sense." Only to then see him blow the un-traded draft pick on a White or Gaunce, or turn around and throw it into a shitty deal for a guy like Ballard?

It was maddening. He was a coward when it came to making a trade.

Jim is just the opposite. He doesn't like giving out big contracts with term, but he also doesn't like giving out clauses that will hamstring him down the road. So he ends up overpaying on players in free agency. Now, some of his previous over-payments are the result of him taking over a team that was headed south at warp speed and just not an attractive destination for free agents, hence the price goes up. But in general his free agency signings have bit him in the arse. That being said, only two of his contract extensions/re-signings have been poor: Gudbranson and Sutter.....Sbisa could be thrown in there too I suppose. In terms of trades, Jim has made a few blunders, but he hasn't been piss poor.....if anything he has missed out on some opportunities from our perspective (like taking on a bad contract to weaponize space), but we don't know for sure that those kind of offers were there for him. I give him a pass on the Eriksson deal because NOBODY saw Loui coming here and being so piss poor, his slow starts in new cities were established, but the fact that he never gained any traction was totally unexpected, and $6Mx6 for a 60 point scorer was good value. But he does go after what he wants.

In general Benning has the balls to back up his hunches and assessment of talent by paying the price to acquire what he wants. Gillis was a total pussy and would twist in the wind making excuses after the fact rather than risk pulling the trigger.

I'll take Benning over Gillis any day of the week.

However, I do think that Aquabros need to hire him an Assistant GM to handle trade negotiations. Benning can draft, he can work the extensions, he can build the team and deal with everything else, but at this point it is really starting to feel like every GM in the league can't wait to pick up the phone when they see Elmer is calling because their job just got way easier.

[Carl Yagro]

^^^^ Very fair assessment, Mëds.

Also, I don't think the owners of this team will ever do transactions like the Marleau trade. They don't necessarily care about having an extra pick. They care about revenue and are not interested in paying out real money for guys that won't be on the roster.

They balked at the Gillis buyouts, they don't pay their berry pickers and they're still trying to avoid capital gains from property sales to purchase the team in 2007.

[Topper]

Once they're drafted, the clubs should have more say in what happens to their drafted assets. I don't think the players nor the agents would disagree.

don't bite the hand that feeds

[Diehard1]

JB's name has been associated with pretty much every single player and trade rumour this off-season. That doesn't sound like tunnel vision to me. That sounds like a GM exploring all of his options.

That may be true, but the overpayments for Guddy, Vey, Pedan, Philip Larsen, Sutter, Prust and now JT Miller show that he either zeroes in on one player and overpays for him, or he's just a horrible trader.

I think it's a combination of both, but we also tend to form opinions based on our most recent previous experiences.

Gillis was a shrewd negotiator when it came to keeping term and AAV manageable.....but he did so at the cost of giving out NTC's and NMC's to half the roster. He was an abysmal drafter, and sub par on the trade front. How many times did we hear strong rumours about a trade involving Vancouver giving up a 1st or 2nd round pick, and we all liked what that return was supposed to be, only to have nothing happen, see the asset we wanted traded elsewhere for a cost that we could have beat, and then listen to Eye Bags Gillis say, "There just wasn't anything that made sense." Only to then see him blow the un-traded draft pick on a White or Gaunce, or turn around and throw it into a shitty deal for a guy like Ballard?

It was maddening. He was a coward when it came to making a trade.

Jim is just the opposite. He doesn't like giving out big contracts with term, but he also doesn't like giving out clauses that will hamstring him down the road. So he ends up overpaying on players in free agency. Now, some of his previous over-payments are the result of him taking over a team that was headed south at warp speed and just not an attractive destination for free agents, hence the price goes up. But in general his free agency signings have bit him in the arse. That being said, only two of his contract extensions/re-signings have been poor: Gudbranson and Sutter.....Sbisa could be thrown in there too I suppose. In terms of trades, Jim has made a few blunders, but he hasn't been piss poor.....if anything he has missed out on some opportunities from our perspective (like taking on a bad contract to weaponize space), but we don't know for sure that those kind of offers were there for him. I give him a pass on the Eriksson deal because NOBODY saw Loui coming here and being so piss poor, his slow starts in new cities were established, but the fact that he never gained any traction was totally unexpected, and $6Mx6 for a 60 point scorer was good value. But he does go after what he wants.

In general Benning has the balls to back up his hunches and assessment of talent by paying the price to acquire what he wants. Gillis was a total pussy and would twist in the wind making excuses after the fact rather than risk pulling the trigger.

I'll take Benning over Gillis any day of the week.

However, I do think that Aquabros need to hire him an Assistant GM to handle trade negotiations. Benning can draft, he can work the extensions, he can build the team and deal with everything else, but at this point it is really starting to feel like every GM in the league can't wait to pick up the phone when they see Elmer is calling because their job just got way easier.

Agreed on Gillis - he started out well with the Hamhuis signing, the Ehrhoff trade and perhaps the Sundin and Sammy signings, but his drafting was abysmal, almost all-time horrible. Whether that was his issue or his scouting staff's problem is immaterial, it was awful and he was the GM so he was to blame. He also came across as a smug asshole so was hard to listed to. The team was very, very good during his tenure though and I'll take an asshole GM if it means the team is good.

Jimbo is the opposite - comes across as an honest, likeable guy but his teams have been awful. Yep he sounds like a country bumpkin but that's secondary to his hockey knowledge. I'm not sure I agree on his FA signings though, aside from Roussel's deal which is likely too early to call, the Miller and Vrbata deals in year 1 it's been pitiful. Loui, Gagner (now Spooner), Del Zotto, Schaller have all been almost completely useless. That's over $50 million in useless contracts. He also can't re-sign guys as you said, the Guddy, Sutter, Sbisa deals were bad. I'm hoping the Edler deal shows he's learning to use his leverage and we'll see what happens with Marky next year as well.

I do like the fact that Jimbo has some balls and will pay up - I just wish he wasn't trading 1st rounders when the team isn't ready to contend.

I and in full agreement about an assistant GM to handle trade negotiations, and I'd love one to help out with contracts/cap management as well. Jimbo knows talent, especially at the amateur level, but he needs somebody to assist with a long-term plan. Aquaman isn't that guy, he's far from the sharpest knife in the drawer and I say that from personal experience.

I'd love to see Jimbo get some help, ideally from a younger, smart, upcoming hockey guy - like Yzerman had in Brisebois. If I were Frankie I'd probably promote Brackett to assistant GM as he seems like he could be that guy, but he runs a draft well so you'd have to make sure you have a god replacement waiting.

[Mickey107]

I'd love to see Jimbo get some help, ideally from a younger, smart, upcoming hockey guy - like Yzerman had in Brisebois. If I were Frankie I'd probably promote Brackett to assistant GM as he seems like he could be that guy, but he runs a draft well so you'd have to make sure you have a god replacement waiting.

Not Peter;..

History or not, this would, for lack of a better word, stink. Way too much has happened since the Bruin days.
I do see someone else to be a director of hockey op. But not a super boss.

[Meds]

Can you or anyone else here give me some examples where a perennial rebuilding/non playoff team traded their first rounder for a veteran player not named Gretzky and benefitted long term? The ghost of Sam Pollock and myself can wait.

I can't answer that question, but I do think that Benning is looking at his current roster and seeing where they were coming out of the all-star break, and that less than a week after that they lost key players throughout the lineup to injury, and the rest was history. I mean if you get the team to actually play consistently in November (especially Markstrom), and don't get hammered by injuries in Feb/March, you gotta think that this team could actually have been the West's version of Carolina or Columbus. He also no doubt looks at Brock, Petey, Hughes, Bo, and Markstrom, and expects them to take another step each individually. With a little more from guys like Virtanen and maybe Stecher, and Pearson around for a full season, there's room for some serious optimism regarding what the team could possibly do this year.

The addition of Pearson last year was a big boost to our top-6 once him and Bo found some chemistry, and Eriksson came along for the ride chipping in a bit, but our top-6 was still a 4-man show. Miller should make it a 5-man show.....so we need a bit of luck and progress from a developing winger, and there could very well be a legit pair of scoring lines in Vancouver.

As a GM of a rebuilding team, at some point you have to pay for pieces that you think are missing. Benning just paid for one of those pieces. He also kept a key piece on the blueline with a very cap, and looming expansion draft, savvy contract in signing Edler. He is rumoured to be going after at least one more top-4 defenseman, and should he snag two of them, moving out Tanev and, even one of, Sutter or Eriksson, will drastically change the dynamics of this team.

Maybe Jim is finally done hoping for existing parts to get it together and pulling the pin and going all out aggressive in the rebuild to finish it with some gusto.

Imagine.....

Miller - Petey - Boeser ($8M)
Pearson - Horvat - Virtanen
Baertschi - Gaudette - Sutter
_____ ($2M) - Beagle - MacEwan
Goldobin ($1M)
Roussel (IR)

Edler - Stecher
Gardiner ($7M) - Myers ($6M)
Hughes - Schenn ($1.5M)
Biega

Markstrom
Demko

The 4th line LW spot was just randomly something coming back in a trade for Tanev and a pick. But even with Spooner and Schaller in Utica counting towards cap that is still only a cap hit of under $74M. There's room to make things happen.

It's some legit turnover, and I'm not a big fan of that 2nd pairing because of what they will cost, and I don't think Stecher is ready for top-pairing duty on the regular, but he's more consistently healthy than Tanev, and you would have a balance of muscle and mobility on each pairing. With those changes Vancouver would definitely be a playoff contender, on paper at least.

[Strangelove]

those firsts area not guaranteed good NHL level players. J.T. Miller is a “player” and is “worth” a first, he’s guaranteed. He’s young, signed on a good contract with term.

Exactly.

Neither is it guaranteed that Miller won't regress or get injured. Nothing is guaranteed.

Point is young Miller was a first round pick that paid off.... some don't.

Apparently, although both of you think JB is a genius, neither of you have as much faith in JB's drafting as I do, because I see it as at least probable that a first round pick by JB (at this point) ends up being substantially better than Miller.

True, Jimmy is a great drafter, but then Miller is a great player.

Arguably we needed that hole filled now rather than a few years from now.

[Strangelove]

I wouldn't worry about a few posters here always defending Jimbo. I learned a while ago that they just do it for the sheer entertainment, it has nothing to do with the job they actually think he's doing. Still fun to debate them but don't ever think you'll be able to reason with them no matter what the evidence is.

Hey, I just want to say thank you, it must be exhausting being the only poster with a reasonable point of view. Seriously, bravo, we could all learn so much from you.

Ha - wasn't even talking about you but obviously somebody is quite defensive. I can't wait to hear you defend the upcoming 7 year, $49 million deal for Tyler Myers.

I often wonder how he can post with Doc’s arm lodged in his ass.

By that logic Diehard must have your arm lodged in his ass.

Or is it possible that it's just a matter of some being happy with the job Jimmy is doing

… and some not so much.

[Strangelove]

Can you or anyone else here give me some examples where a perennial rebuilding/non playoff team traded their first rounder for a veteran player not named Gretzky and benefitted long term?

Can you give some examples of a perennial rebuilding/non playoff team trading their first rounder for a veteran player

... and not benefiting long term?

[Strangelove]

In today's NHL, the traditional 5 tool player has been replaced with the 6 tool player....

The 6th tool is the contract

Yup.

[Chef Boi RD]

Blob loves decade long tanks. See Colorado, Buffalo, Edmonton, Arizona. He’s not ready to leave the lottery zone cause he’s a miserable human

[Blob Mckenzie]

Blob loves decade long tanks. See Colorado, Buffalo, Edmonton, Arizona. He’s not ready to leave the lottery zone cause he’s a miserable human

Dude likes squeezing into the playoffs and watching the team get pulverized by Calgary. He thinks 1sts and 2nds should be puked away like candy for third line players and bottom pairing D. He thought Loui Eriksson was an excellent signing because he’s a drug addled bald man with bird legs and a huge shitbag.

See I can do this too.

[Strangelove]

Blob loves decade long tanks. See Colorado, Buffalo, Edmonton, Arizona. He’s not ready to leave the lottery zone cause he’s a miserable human

Wait... Blob is human??