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Blob Mckenzie wrote: ↑Sun Jun 23, 2019 8:30 pm
I don’t mind Miller but yeah it definitely seems like he had his beer goggles on and lovers nuts for this certain guy.
That's funny, there wasn't a single rumor of Benning going after Miller, but you have decided to adopt this narrative that he had beer goggles on for this certain guy.
I mean, surely on your narrative there would have been a whisper of this happening? After all, you are so plugged in that you've brought this scoop that Benning supposedly offered #6oa, Horvat, and his wife's wedding ring for Subban, you must have heard something in advance about Benning having a hard on for Miller?
Otherwise, it would seem to suggest that your narrative is bullshit, just like your story on the Subban offer (which was far better than what the Hab's actually got, but hey, narrative, right?).
If Benning wants to recoup a 1st, he can always trade Miller again. He's been traded for a first twice before.
Must defend everything Jim Benning does
Benning admitted that they had been trying to do a deal for him for awhile. Micky posted the interview somewhere.
Hopefully Jimbro is right on this.
Now get a top 4 d-man & clear out some dead weight
Blob Mckenzie wrote: ↑Sun Jun 23, 2019 8:50 pm
Most GMs in west or the east would love to trade with Benning
Why cause every transaction comes with a complimentary 2nd or 3rd rounder FREE?
No shit. I don’t even mind Miller as a player but the price tag sucks. Pretty much everywhere but here among a few klowns this deal is getting panned and people are saying Elmer got throat pumped again. Draft and develop. Rinse and repeat. Some folks just can’t handle a rebuild.
Question, how many of us have actually watched him enough to judge the trade? As a season ticket holder and NHL Centre Ice subscriber I watch lots of hockey and have to admit that I was taken back by his skill level and physical play after watching some of his highlight packages....
This is a review of the deal from the Hockey News;
There’s no reason to believe that Miller can’t round back into form in Vancouver, either. Despite last season’s offensive dip, he was a consistent 20-goal, 45-point scorer in the three seasons prior. In fact, even accounting for last season’s scoring slide, Miller has scored at an average of 20 goals and 52 points per season over the past four campaigns. The 26-year-old is right in the prime of his career, too, so there may be no time like the present for him to have himself a career year.
So, a slight overpayment? Maybe, but it’s a deal that saw both teams get exactly what they wanted. The Canucks add to an offense that was far too centered on three players, one of whom was a baby-faced rookie last season, while the Lightning got sweet, sweet cap relief, though it likely won’t be long before they’re right up against the spending limit once again.
In today's NHL, the traditional 5 tool player has been replaced with the 6 tool player....
The 6th tool is the contract and especially over the next 2 seasons leading up to the entry of the Seattle franchise that 6th tool is one of the most important qualities when making deals and judging a players worth to a team....
Some, especially those in the local media are slow to come around and understand the value of a value contract in a hard cap system so I get that some may not like the deal....
Philadelphia just spent a 5th round pick and $50 million over 7 years which included a full NMC to acquire an older player who has similar numbers to Miller as compared to Millers contract which is $26,250 over 5 years with a modified NTC....
As for exit strategies, should things fall apart in Vancouver over the next 2 seasons and the team wants to unload Miller at the deadline what could it expect?
A 28 year old with 2 more years at $5,250,000 per I would expect could fetch a nice return and take away the sting some are feeling about the 1st rounder the team traded away....
Topper wrote: ↑Mon Jun 24, 2019 4:19 am
Miller (6'1", 218lb) put up nearly identical numbers to Bo Horvat (6', 215) until buried in Tampa depth last year. He and Bo are similar size and on similar contracts (Miller is $250K/yr cheaper than Bo with the same # yrs left on his deal). Miller returns to top 6 position he held with the Rags. Miller is 2 yrs older than Bo and a yr younger than Pearson. Miller was drafted 2 spots behind Bearchia and 14 ahead of Nick Jensen.
Would you want a 1st in return for Bo Horvat?
Year Gm G A Pt Pim
2015-16 82 16 24 40 18
2016-17 81 20 32 52 27
2017-18 64 22 22 44 10
2018-19 82 27 34 61 33
Year Gm G A Pt Pim
2015-16 82 22 21 43 46
2016-17 82 22 34 56 21
2017-18 82 23 35 58 40
2018-19 75 13 34 47 30
Well when you put it that way .......
Nice comparison and one that makes me see things in a different light. For sure I’d expect a 1st plus for Bo. I feel better about the deal. Still hate giving up a first but at some point we have to break away from the rebuild/tank mentality. It’s time to make the playoffs. Miller can help with that goal.
Yeah, at first I was really upset with what we gave up too but after thinking about it for a while I have warmed to the trade. Of course I wish it was a 2nd rounder instead of a first but thank god it is lottery protected. Still wish we got a mid round pick coming back for him too.
As for the roster. I think Eriksson has played his last game here and I have suspicion that Virtanen has too. Myers will probably be signed on July 1st and I think Virtanen and probably Tanev will be packaged to bring back another quality D man. Wouldn't be surprised to see Hutton in another uniform next season too.
Topper wrote: ↑Mon Jun 24, 2019 4:19 am
Miller (6'1", 218lb) put up nearly identical numbers to Bo Horvat (6', 215) until buried in Tampa depth last year. He and Bo are similar size and on similar contracts (Miller is $250K/yr cheaper than Bo with the same # yrs left on his deal). Miller returns to top 6 position he held with the Rags. Miller is 2 yrs older than Bo and a yr younger than Pearson. Miller was drafted 2 spots behind Bearchia and 14 ahead of Nick Jensen.
Would you want a 1st in return for Bo Horvat?
Year Gm G A Pt Pim
2015-16 82 16 24 40 18
2016-17 81 20 32 52 27
2017-18 64 22 22 44 10
2018-19 82 27 34 61 33
Year Gm G A Pt Pim
2015-16 82 22 21 43 46
2016-17 82 22 34 56 21
2017-18 82 23 35 58 40
2018-19 75 13 34 47 30
Well when you put it that way .......
Nice comparison and one that makes me see things in a different light. For sure I’d expect a 1st plus for Bo. I feel better about the deal. Still hate giving up a first but at some point we have to break away from the rebuild/tank mentality. It’s time to make the playoffs. Miller can help with that goal.
Yeah, at first I was really upset with what we gave up too but after thinking about it for a while I have warmed to the trade. Of course I wish it was a 2nd rounder instead of a first but thank god it is lottery protected. Still wish we got a mid round pick coming back for him too.
As for the roster. I think Eriksson has played his last game here and I have suspicion that Virtanen has too. Myers will probably be signed on July 1st and I think Virtanen and probably Tanev will be packaged to bring back another quality D man. Wouldn't be surprised to see Hutton in another uniform next season too.
Yeah but nobody in their right mind would trade Horvat for Miller. Miller is a decent piece but Tampa needed to shed salary. Let them sweat a little and bring the price down. The roster and organization is still riddled with holes. You don’t trade 1st rounders in the middle of a rebuild.
“I don’t care what you and some other poster were talking about”
(1) It really shows you what a steal it was to get Pearson for Gudbrandson.... Both have similar offensive production upsides, but Miller can be used in all situations and at any position. Miller has the wheels; Pearson is more opportunistic.
(2) It sure would have been nice to get the TML first for buying out Marleau. That would remove the sting of giving up a first. It is a sting because we've seen some pretty good drafting lately (Pettersson, Hughes, Boeser, Demko). But imagine the drafts before that? Bag-of-pucks firsts (Gaunce, Jensen, Shinkaurk).
(3) JB isn't getting to the 2021 draft without making the playoffs one of the next two seasons. At some point you have to declare that you have a core moving forward and look to supplement it. I am not certain that it is now, but I am certain that from JB's perspective it needs to be. Therefore, the pick was going to be traded this offseason, and the BPA available for it after kicking tires was Miller.
If it fails, if this core doesn't work, the Canucks will have a lot of pieces that the next GM can trade for value. That wasn't really the case once MG got canned.
(4) I continue to think that championships are won down the middle and with defense. If a first could have been used as a package to get someone who could be a #1 D, I have problems with the Miller trade from an opportunity cost perspective. (I'm sure it could have been used as a package to get Subban, I am not sure he is the man, but probably was the best available for trade). But my guess is that the tires were all kicked on potential targets *and the team decided that they'd rather make a move in free agency for a defenseman instead of a forward.* Myers or Gardiner are the best available, but neither is the #1 the Canucks need, and none are available. Both would improve this team, but there are a few players lower on the radars that might also be an improvement over the current group in terms of a defensive defensemen. Patrik Nemeth comes to mind as a third pairing/penalty killer that should be available for less than it will cost to re-sign Hutton. And we ought to ask whether Hutton is more valuable as someone to trade than as a 3rd pairing defensemen.
(5) Heavy was the word of the year. The St. Louis Blues won with a heavy team. I am always suspicious of trying to emulate cup winners. The key is not to do what they do, but to do what they can't beat. Is Miller a move towards the Blues direction?
(6) Drafting the Russian... If draft and develop is the model, the Canucks have only half of this equation solved for the moment. European leagues and the NCAA seem to do a better job at development for the Canucks than Utica/Major Junior. So let them. Is this a coincidence: Russia, NCAA, SEL, SM Liiga, NCAA? The only Canadian-born Major Junior first rounders in the JB era are Virtanen and McCann, both of who were rushed to the NHL (and both of whom will likely be serviceable-but-nothing-special NHLers). The only other major junior player is Juolevi, who they decided would be better off in Finland for a year than playing in Utica. And the verdict is still out on that one (objectively, it should be still out on Hughes, but the case went in well....).
(7) After the draft: players than can return value in a trade: Woo, Tanev, Hutton, Stecher, Virtanen, Markstrom, Demko, DiPietro, Baertschi, Roussel (at deadline), Gaudette, Sutter (at deadline, if he is healthy and playing decently). If I am another team's GM, I would look to add Goldobin for cheap -- for those who have written off Goldy, that's value. For those of us (me only?) who think he think its a better bet to give him one last season instead of grabbing a unlikely-to-reward 3rd, I'd give him this year. But Goldobin is definitely value as a sweetener in another acquisition.
Not proposing any one of these players gets traded in particular, but this is what JB is working with for the next move. On top of that, he will be looking to move Eriksson and Spooner without having to out up a dowry or take a bad contract.
Blob Mckenzie wrote: ↑Mon Jun 24, 2019 7:17 am
Yeah but nobody in their right mind would trade Horvat for Miller. Miller is a decent piece but Tampa needed to shed salary. Let them sweat a little and bring the price down. The roster and organization is still riddled with holes. You don’t trade 1st rounders in the middle of a rebuild.
A player's value isn't what the team who owns his rights thinks his value is; a player's value is what the team that values him highest values him at. Tampa needed to shed salary, but I can't imagine they were only talking to the Canucks about Miller and I can't imagine the Canucks were the only team expressing interest.
You can make the argument this isn't the right time to start supplementing the core, you can make the argument that this isn't the right use of the resources, you can make the argument that Miller isn't worth a 1st and a 3rd to the Canucks. But the argument that the Canucks had leverage over the Bolts is based on a fundamental misunderstanding of multi-lateral markets.
Reefer2 wrote: ↑Sat Jun 22, 2019 6:21 pm
Ricky - the point he is making has sweet fuck all to do with this years pick.
Many fans believe it is an over payment for Miller, especially since Tampa was up against the cap so most fans think he could of paid less to get him.
The truth is that we will never know how many teams were trying to trade for Miller. The Canucks are not the only team with the cap space. The Lightning might not have to deal him if all the return was not satisfactory.
Fair point, but as per usual with Jimbo once he gets a player in mind he pays more than anybody else would regardless of the circumstances. He overpaid for Guddy who was a disaster, he overpaid for Linden Vey who was also terrible, he overpaid for Brandon Sutter who has been below average at best, he threw away a pick for Pedan.
This trade reeks of Jimbo’s desperation and that makes no sense when a team needs help with their cap situation. It’s not like JT Miller was the only guy out there Jimbo could have traded for, as the Leaves, Golden Knights, Pens, Flames, Caps, Sharks, etc all may have to trade a player or two to get cap compliant. There aren’t that many teams that have cap room, need a player, and have the internal budget to pick somebody up. Jimbo is one of the few and he needs to learn to use that leverage.
If Miller is what JB truly wants, the 3rd rounder and the conditional 1st round are not a huge price tag after all. As you mentioned, most teams want to move "huge" contracts off their team. Lots of them will be just boat anchors like Marleau instead of players like Miller. As for Subban, I do not believe that Nashville would like to trade him to the Canucks unless it is a huge overpayment. If Subban was available for the Western conference, I would assume the Oilers, which they sorely need defense as much as the Canucks, would be all in to acquire him.
Blob Mckenzie wrote: ↑Mon Jun 24, 2019 7:17 am
Yeah but nobody in their right mind would trade Horvat for Miller. Miller is a decent piece but Tampa needed to shed salary. Let them sweat a little and bring the price down. The roster and organization is still riddled with holes. You don’t trade 1st rounders in the middle of a rebuild.
A player's value isn't what the team who owns his rights thinks his value is; a player's value is what the team that values him highest values him at. Tampa needed to shed salary, but I can't imagine they were only talking to the Canucks about Miller and I can't imagine the Canucks were the only team expressing interest.
You can make the argument this isn't the right time to start supplementing the core, you can make the argument that this isn't the right use of the resources, you can make the argument that Miller isn't worth a 1st and a 3rd to the Canucks. But the argument that the Canucks had leverage over the Bolts is based on a fundamental misunderstanding of multi-lateral markets.
As usual UW you make some salient points. My big issue with this is the sticker price, not so much the player. There are a lot of teams bumped up against the cap. There are other players out there to be moved and something tells me they won’t fetch a potential lottery pick.
This was a reckless move by a manager who will be canned at seasons end if he misses the playoffs for the 5th straight year.
“I don’t care what you and some other poster were talking about”
Blob Mckenzie wrote: ↑Mon Jun 24, 2019 7:17 am
Yeah but nobody in their right mind would trade Horvat for Miller. Miller is a decent piece but Tampa needed to shed salary. Let them sweat a little and bring the price down. The roster and organization is still riddled with holes. You don’t trade 1st rounders in the middle of a rebuild.
A player's value isn't what the team who owns his rights thinks his value is; a player's value is what the team that values him highest values him at. Tampa needed to shed salary, but I can't imagine they were only talking to the Canucks about Miller and I can't imagine the Canucks were the only team expressing interest.
You can make the argument this isn't the right time to start supplementing the core, you can make the argument that this isn't the right use of the resources, you can make the argument that Miller isn't worth a 1st and a 3rd to the Canucks. But the argument that the Canucks had leverage over the Bolts is based on a fundamental misunderstanding of multi-lateral markets.
As usual UW you make some salient points. My big issue with this is the sticker price, not so much the player. There are a lot of teams bumped up against the cap. There are other players out there to be moved and something tells me they won’t fetch a potential lottery pick.
This was a reckless move by a manager who will be canned at seasons end if he misses the playoffs for the 5th straight year.
I don't know Blob, I think part of the reasoning for acquiring Miller was/is because of what happened To Horvat last year.
He got inundated with extra work because of "noshowsutter", and others, ie Gaudette not being ready yet/ Granlund not up to the task.
and so on. He stood up remarkably well, (lucky for us), but F**K, he had to work himself crazy.
In one fell swoop, this alleviates that from happening again, fingers crossed.
Ya, a first is nasty but so was the problem. Just my idea of why...
Blob Mckenzie wrote: ↑Mon Jun 24, 2019 7:17 am
Yeah but nobody in their right mind would trade Horvat for Miller. Miller is a decent piece but Tampa needed to shed salary. Let them sweat a little and bring the price down. The roster and organization is still riddled with holes. You don’t trade 1st rounders in the middle of a rebuild.
A player's value isn't what the team who owns his rights thinks his value is; a player's value is what the team that values him highest values him at. Tampa needed to shed salary, but I can't imagine they were only talking to the Canucks about Miller and I can't imagine the Canucks were the only team expressing interest.
You can make the argument this isn't the right time to start supplementing the core, you can make the argument that this isn't the right use of the resources, you can make the argument that Miller isn't worth a 1st and a 3rd to the Canucks. But the argument that the Canucks had leverage over the Bolts is based on a fundamental misunderstanding of multi-lateral markets.
As usual UW you make some salient points. My big issue with this is the sticker price, not so much the player. There are a lot of teams bumped up against the cap. There are other players out there to be moved and something tells me they won’t fetch a potential lottery pick.
This was a reckless move by a manager who will be canned at seasons end if he misses the playoffs for the 5th straight year.
I don't know Blob, I think part of the reasoning for acquiring Miller was/is because of what happened To Horvat last year.
He got inundated with extra work because of "noshowsutter", and others, ie Gaudette not being ready yet/ Granlund not up to the task.
and so on. He stood up remarkably well, (lucky for us), but F**K, he had to work himself crazy.
In one fell swoop, this alleviates that from happening again, fingers crossed.
Ya, a first is nasty but so was the problem. Just my idea of why...
That’s great and all but this is still a team with one of the very worst back ends in the NHL. They weren’t a JT Miller away from being a playoff team
“I don’t care what you and some other poster were talking about”
Blob Mckenzie wrote: ↑Mon Jun 24, 2019 9:46 amThat’s great and all but this is still a team with one of the very worst back ends in the NHL. They weren’t a JT Miller away from being a playoff team
June 24th
Over the Internet, you can pretend to be anyone or anything.
I'm amazed that so many people choose to be complete twats.
