US Erection 12 *AND* 16 *AND* 20

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Re: US Erection 12 *AND* 16 *AND* 20

Post by UWSaint »

ukcanuck wrote: Thu Apr 01, 2021 7:13 am The greatest trick the devil ever did was make you think he doesn’t exist.
You think the devil exists, uk?
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Re: US Erection 12 *AND* 16 *AND* 20

Post by ukcanuck »

UWSaint wrote: Thu Apr 01, 2021 9:19 am
Per wrote: Thu Apr 01, 2021 2:58 am
Per, any idea what Germany’s murder rate was in the early 1940s?
Image

I know, retorical question, but... :wink:
I'm thinking that's like if a NY nursing home resident contracts covid because of an order requiring nursing homes to take covid patients, but that they are later taken to the hospital to die, they aren't a nursing home death according to the governor. (But they died in Poland!)
All the murderers were busy killing for the army? Is that your point?

I’m guessing that national socialist Germany wouldn’t have just allowed the public to have guns all Willy nilly and crime was at an all time low. Interestingly enough the nazis did make sure every citizen had a free radio.
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Re: US Erection 12 *AND* 16 *AND* 20

Post by ukcanuck »

UWSaint wrote: Thu Apr 01, 2021 9:22 am
ukcanuck wrote: Thu Apr 01, 2021 7:13 am The greatest trick the devil ever did was make you think he doesn’t exist.
You think the devil exists, uk?
The devil as in the red dude with a pitch fork ? No

But evil exists and the devil is a personification of evil for story telling purposes? Yeah that’s hard to deny

That plus Keyser soze was awesome
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Re: US Erection 12 *AND* 16 *AND* 20

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ukcanuck wrote: Thu Apr 01, 2021 10:10 am But evil exists and the devil is a personification of evil for story telling purposes? Yeah that’s hard to deny
So if we need a personification for 'evil', why don't we have them for other human traits? Is it easier to explain to ourselves that "this person is evil" or "the devil made him do it"? The sooner we openly admit that we're all capable of great evil (and great good), then we can move past these medieval thoughts. The more we learn about sociopaths, psychopaths, narcissists and the like, the more can treat and deal with them.

But the concept of the devil and demons does make for some good horror movies. :D :devil:
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Re: US Erection 12 *AND* 16 *AND* 20

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Cornuck wrote: Thu Apr 01, 2021 11:03 am
ukcanuck wrote: Thu Apr 01, 2021 10:10 am But evil exists and the devil is a personification of evil for story telling purposes? Yeah that’s hard to deny
So if we need a personification for 'evil', why don't we have them for other human traits? Is it easier to explain to ourselves that "this person is evil" or "the devil made him do it"? The sooner we openly admit that we're all capable of great evil (and great good), then we can move past these medieval thoughts. The more we learn about sociopaths, psychopaths, narcissists and the like, the more can treat and deal with them.

But the concept of the devil and demons does make for some good horror movies. :D :devil:
Yes it does take self enlightenment to understand simple tropes like good and evil

The idea that good and evil are equal opposites is hard to work out logically.

CS Lewis has a ton of writings on the concept. Good People do good things for selfless motives and bad people do bad things for selfish reasons gets complicated when you consider the bad that people do is a lot of times for their own good.

Stealing is wrong and evil but if your starving and you steal a loaf of bread you live another day in which you can do more good things than bad.

Is the greater good served because the thief lived? Or is the theft the greater evil?

I guess from the bakers point of view the thief is all evil. Having said that however, I think most religions regard evil as the absence of good or love.

Kind of like around here lately (and yes I know I’m as much the problem as the solution) 🌞
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Re: US Erection 12 *AND* 16 *AND* 20

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Cornuck wrote: Thu Apr 01, 2021 11:03 am
ukcanuck wrote: Thu Apr 01, 2021 10:10 am But evil exists and the devil is a personification of evil for story telling purposes? Yeah that’s hard to deny
So if we need a personification for 'evil', why don't we have them for other human traits? Is it easier to explain to ourselves that "this person is evil" or "the devil made him do it"? The sooner we openly admit that we're all capable of great evil (and great good), then we can move past these medieval thoughts. The more we learn about sociopaths, psychopaths, narcissists and the like, the more can treat and deal with them.

But the concept of the devil and demons does make for some good horror movies. :D :devil:
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Re: US Erection 12 *AND* 16 *AND* 20

Post by UWSaint »

ukcanuck wrote: Thu Apr 01, 2021 10:10 am
UWSaint wrote: Thu Apr 01, 2021 9:22 am
ukcanuck wrote: Thu Apr 01, 2021 7:13 am The greatest trick the devil ever did was make you think he doesn’t exist.
You think the devil exists, uk?
The devil as in the red dude with a pitch fork ? No

But evil exists and the devil is a personification of evil for story telling purposes? Yeah that’s hard to deny

That plus Keyser soze was awesome
Looks like the devil only half won for you, uk. ;)
Last edited by UWSaint on Thu Apr 01, 2021 12:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: US Erection 12 *AND* 16 *AND* 20

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ukcanuck wrote: Thu Apr 01, 2021 10:06 am
UWSaint wrote: Thu Apr 01, 2021 9:19 am I'm thinking that's like if a NY nursing home resident contracts covid because of an order requiring nursing homes to take covid patients, but that they are later taken to the hospital to die, they aren't a nursing home death according to the governor. (But they died in Poland!)
All the murderers were busy killing for the army? Is that your point?

I’m guessing that national socialist Germany wouldn’t have just allowed the public to have guns all Willy nilly and crime was at an all time low. Interestingly enough the nazis did make sure every citizen had a free radio.
Killing enemy combatants in war during a battle is something different than murder.

Rounding up & executing Jews and other disfavored-by-the-regime was not killing enemy combatants in war during battle. Nor was rounding up captured prisoners and executing them killing an enemy combatant during a battle, as was primarily done on the eastern front.

My point is that these killings are more like homicide (well, genocide in the case of the jews) than killing in a war, and thus the homicide numbers are absurdly low.

I don't know that I'd say all the murderers were killing for the army; I think my position is closer to this: There is a murderer deep inside every person and that for lots and lots of reasons that never manifests. Many of those reasons were taken away in Nazi Germany. One of those things that keeps a person from killing another is a fundamental belief that there is human dignity within every person (a belief that's often coupled with a belief in divine creation), and this belief was not prevailing in Nazi Germany.

I think denying access to guns provides another way that murder may never manifest because guns are really effective at killing people. But taking away guns is severely limiting the ability to defend oneself. Personally, I agree with the tradeoff of living in a society with more effective violence if it means I am not beholden to effectiveness of the police (they can't be everywhere at all times and we wouldn't want that) or pure strength to defend my own life. Plus, disarming the citizenry is a great way to allow those with whom guns remain to exercise extraordinary power over those who do not. I am not saying all disarmed countries will fall into totalitarianism or that all armed countries are impervious to it, but one type of country is harder than another to control through the use of state force. One type of country is also harder for a foreign invader to occupy and control.

As for what the nazis did, my understanding is that Weimer gun control laws were loosened for some and tightened for others. Guess who had their firearms taken away?
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Re: US Erection 12 *AND* 16 *AND* 20

Post by Per »

UWSaint wrote: Thu Apr 01, 2021 9:19 am
Per wrote: Thu Apr 01, 2021 2:58 am
Per, any idea what Germany’s murder rate was in the early 1940s?
Image

I know, retorical question, but... :wink:
I'm thinking that's like if a NY nursing home resident contracts covid because of an order requiring nursing homes to take covid patients, but that they are later taken to the hospital to die, they aren't a nursing home death according to the governor. (But they died in Poland!)
There is also the question if executions are murder.
I say yes. I do not agree with the notion that a government has the right to kill its citizens.
But I’m afraid homicide statistics from countries that do execute people usually do not include executions.
Thus the German numbers being lower than what you may have expected.
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Re: US Erection 12 *AND* 16 *AND* 20

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Jamaica maintains two stats, murder by private citizens vs police killings.

Every few year a small group of police would go rogue (though likely santioned) and remove the dregs of the crime stats from society. They ave to be the bottom of the barrel though because they lack political protection that most of the gangs enjoy.

A year after I had moved to Belize and a small company was putting the gold project we discovered into production, a small group of Kingston ghetto thugs rented a house in a community near the project with intent to rob/kidnap/extort/kill the mine mangers. One night before they could hatch their scheme, a few off duty cops showed up and killed them all.
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Re: US Erection 12 *AND* 16 *AND* 20

Post by Per »

UWSaint wrote: Thu Apr 01, 2021 9:22 am
ukcanuck wrote: Thu Apr 01, 2021 7:13 am The greatest trick the devil ever did was make you think he doesn’t exist.
You think the devil exists, uk?
We’ve all seen him.

Image

Though I’ll never understand why he didn’t play for New Jersey. :hmmm:
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Re: US Erection 12 *AND* 16 *AND* 20

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Per wrote: Thu Apr 01, 2021 1:25 pm There is also the question if executions are murder.
I say yes. I do not agree with the notion that a government has the right to kill its citizens.
But I’m afraid homicide statistics from countries that do execute people usually do not include executions.
Thus the German numbers being lower than what you may have expected.
Its just quibbling over definitions to make a point -- that's all I was doing with Germany as a way to chide about Europe's relatively low murder rate.

However one comes down on capital punishment -- the execution of convicted defendant who has been afforded a neutral trial with all the bells and whistles of due process -- I think its something that is categorically different than a summary execution (from the moral perspective). I'm not saying that I do not respect the view that capital punishment is wrong as a moral argument, I mean its categorically different than cold blooded murder, manslaughter, or a summary execution.
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Re: US Erection 12 *AND* 16 *AND* 20

Post by Cornuck »

UWSaint wrote: Thu Apr 01, 2021 1:57 pm ...the execution of convicted defendant who has been afforded a neutral trial with all the bells and whistles of due process -- I think its something that is categorically different than a summary execution...
Tell that to the 185 people acquitted from death row.
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Re: US Erection 12 *AND* 16 *AND* 20

Post by Meds »

UWSaint wrote: Thu Apr 01, 2021 1:57 pm
Per wrote: Thu Apr 01, 2021 1:25 pm There is also the question if executions are murder.
I say yes. I do not agree with the notion that a government has the right to kill its citizens.
But I’m afraid homicide statistics from countries that do execute people usually do not include executions.
Thus the German numbers being lower than what you may have expected.
Its just quibbling over definitions to make a point -- that's all I was doing with Germany as a way to chide about Europe's relatively low murder rate.

However one comes down on capital punishment -- the execution of convicted defendant who has been afforded a neutral trial with all the bells and whistles of due process -- I think its something that is categorically different than a summary execution (from the moral perspective). I'm not saying that I do not respect the view that capital punishment is wrong as a moral argument, I mean its categorically different than cold blooded murder, manslaughter, or a summary execution.
I suppose it depends upon the country, but most "free" nations of states that employ the death penalty (and there's really only one of them left) only do so for crimes that land in the "an eye for and eye" category.....or in this a case a life for a life. Obviously I say this without digging up some of the more obscure and inane laws that various places have.....I'm sure if one wanted to go digging there would be some state law requiring a death penalty for parking on the wrong side of the street with an inbred relative in the front passenger seat of the carriage when there is exactly 3 clouds in the sky on a Saturday afternoon.

We won't bother discussing China, North Korea, or countries in the middle east.
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Re: US Erection 12 *AND* 16 *AND* 20

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The English language is so confusing.

There is a silent K in the word knot
2 silent K’s in the word knuckle
3 silent k’s in Republican
And
4 silent K’s in Knickknack :wow:
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