Old World Politics

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UWSaint
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Re: Old World Politics

Post by UWSaint »

Per wrote: Sat Oct 15, 2022 5:53 pm I had to check… the von der Leyen commission has 10 EPP members, 9 social democrats, 5 liberals, two independent and one from the ECR (Poland).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Von_der_L ... epartments

So, whereas von der Leyen herself is conservative, the members of the commission has all sorts of political affiliations, which means there has to be all sorts of compromises to find common ground. Thus I’d say most of its politics end up being rather centrist.
If Ursula von der Leyen is right of center than Europe’s center is quite a bit further left then the center in the United States.

And Per, you know better than to call the new Italian government fascists. I know you’re not ignorant of history, so I have to presume that you aren’t as cynical/skeptical about the media narratives as you ought to be.
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Re: Old World Politics

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UWSaint wrote: Sat Oct 15, 2022 9:10 pm
Per wrote: Sat Oct 15, 2022 5:53 pm I had to check… the von der Leyen commission has 10 EPP members, 9 social democrats, 5 liberals, two independent and one from the ECR (Poland).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Von_der_L ... epartments

So, whereas von der Leyen herself is conservative, the members of the commission has all sorts of political affiliations, which means there has to be all sorts of compromises to find common ground. Thus I’d say most of its politics end up being rather centrist.
If Ursula von der Leyen is right of center than Europe’s center is quite a bit further left then the center in the United States.
Oh yeah, definitely. Especially in Western Europe. All countries of the EU have free universal health care, and it is not questioned by the conservatives. Everyone agrees that healthcare should be a right, not a privilege. Gay rights and women’s rights are more or less universally embraced. The extremely traditionalist Ireland has an openly gay PM. In the Bush vs Kerry election, some 80% of British tories preferred Kerry. Many Europeans describe the US elections as a choice between a conservative and an extremely conservative party. It’s not quite fair though. Eventhough politicians like the Clintons, Obama and Biden probably would be considered right of center
In Europe, the democratic party does contain a left wing fringe with people like Bernie Sanders and AOC that are more like our social democrats. And the conservatives in Eastern Europe tend to be a lot more conservative. They are anti-gay, anti-abortion, anti-immigration. The Polish conservatives even pushed for adding the phrase that the EU is a union of Christian nations into the attempts of writing a European constitution, which of course had all of western Europe freak out, as secularism and freedom of religion are important values here. But yeah, the centre of politics in Europe is much further to the left than it is in the USA. From what I’ve seen, I don't think it differs much from Canada though.

UWSaint wrote: Sat Oct 15, 2022 9:10 pm And Per, you know better than to call the new Italian government fascists. I know you’re not ignorant of history, so I have to presume that you aren’t as cynical/skeptical about the media narratives as you ought to be.
It is of course a coalition of three parties, but I specifically meant Meloni’s party, Fratelli d’Italia. Although it technically is a new party, there are direct links to MSI, the party formed by leading fascists after WW2, Meloni herself has praised Mussolini’s leadership and they use the same symbol as MSI, a tricolor flame, symbolising the flame burning outside Mussolini’s tomb.
The bulk of FdI's leadership including Meloni, who has led the party since 2014, as well as the symbol of the movement (the tricolour flame), comes from the post-fascist National Alliance (AN), which was founded in 1995 and merged into PdL in 2009. AN was the successor to the Italian Social Movement (MSI), active from 1945 to 1995, a neo-fascist party founded by former members of the banned National Fascist Party (1921–1943) and the Republican Fascist Party (1943–1945).[
Political commentators have variously described FdI as neo-fascist, post-fascist, right-wing, far-right, nationalist, conservative, socially conservative, national-conservative, right-wing populist, nativist and anti-immigration. Although FdI rejects the label, the party has been described as neo-fascist, in part due the party's history dating back to the Italian Social Movement (MSI), its far-right ties, its appeal to neo-fascists on social media such as Facebook, and some party leaders' nostalgia for Italian fascism. At the local level, FdI has at times flaunted sympathy towards fascist nostalgia. Some leaders, such as Romano Maria la Russa, have continued to make Roman salutes. Several party members have celebrated Mussolini, with fascist and Nazi memorabilia in their regional headquarters. Some members of the Mussolini family have run for FdI, such as Rachele Mussolini, granddaughter of Mussolini, for the City Council of Rome, and Caio Giulio Cesare Mussolini, great-grandson of Mussolini, for the 2019 European Parliament election.

In 2019, academic Đorđe Sredanović placed FdI, along with the neo-fascist parties CasaPound (a split from Tricolour Flame, which refused to join the National Alliance) and New Force (FN) from the Terza Posizione tradition, in the post-fascist/neo-fascist categories. In October 2021, FdI distanced itself from FN after they violently assaulted the labour union Italian General Confederation of Labour's headquarters; the party abstained on a parliamentary motion to ban FN while condemning "all totalitarianisms". A December 2021 investigation by Fanpage.it on allegations of money laundering and illicit campaign financing also revealed FdI had ties with neo-Nazis in the Milan party section. Meloni told Corriere della Sera there were no "nostalgic fascists, racists or antisemites in the Brothers of Italy DNA" and that she had always got rid of "ambiguous people", and in other interviews she said there was no place for fascist nostalgia in FdI. Critics have been sceptical, citing Meloni's speeches on immigration and LGBT rights.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brothers_of_Italy

Meloni herself rejects the idea that they are a fascist party, but they embrace the same ideas, they like Mussolini and they have adopted a fascist symbol as their party logo. It is a bit like a group of former nazis forming a party, praising Hitler, choosing the swastika as their logo and rejecting the notion thst they are nazis, or, if you prefer, a bunch of former communists forming a party, praising Marx and Lenin, choosing the hammer and sickle as their party symbol and rejecting the notion that they are communists.

If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck… :hmmm:

Also, fascism never went out of style in Italy. It is not unusual that you walk into some small family run trattoria and find that they have a picture of Mussolini on the wall. They also have a vibrant communist party. Italian politics are weird. I guess they just like the extremes.
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Re: Old World Politics

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I mean, how much slack should you cut these people?

In Sweden we have our own Sweden Democrats. When the party was founded back in the 1990’s roughly half of the founding committe had a background in neonazi groups, one of them actually served as a volunteer in the SS during WW2. :shock:
Back then they’d do nazi salutes, wave flags with swastikas and demand that all immigrants having arrived after 1974 should be forcibly returned to where they came from. They also copied the Italian fascist symbol of the eternal flame as their party logo, except making it blue and yellow instead of the Italian colours.
Since then, under their current leader, Jimmy Åkesson, they have switched from bomber jackets, shaved heads (well, not all of them, but shaved heads have become more mainstream) and DocMartens to suits and smiles. They have toned down the retoric, gotten rid of the nazi paraphernalia, switched the party symbol to a blue and yellow flower, and now try to seem like a normal civilised alternative to the other political parties. They’ve done this so well that they got 20% of the vote in the last elections and are part of the parliamentary support for the new conservative government. The other three parties, that will actually form the government (conservatives, christian democrats and liberals) have refused to let them be part of the actual government, but in return they have instead agree to basically implement a carbon copy of the SD immigration policies.

Now, the problem with SD, in the eyes of me and many others, is that the coat of respectability they’ve varnished onto themselves is constantly cracking. Take Rebecka Fallenkvist, for example. She is a prominent face on their web based TV station and has recently been elected to the regional assembly of Stockholm. On election night, she was interviewed on TV, obviously shit faced, but still. When asked how she feels she goes lItks a wonderful moment! Weekend victory! It is a victory weekend, a victory train….” Now, it may just seem like she’s babbling, but the phrase ”weekend victory” that she blurts out while raising her hand toward the camera man, in Swedish is to helg seger”. It is not a set expression, it sounds rather weird, no one has ever used those words like that and it is uncomfortably close to ”hell seger”, meaning ”hail victory” and is the Swedish version of the ”sieg heil” that German nazis used. :|



Well, you can make excuses for her; she was drunk, maybe she’s not good with words, maybe it came out wrong. But it got a lot of coverage, and it’s not in a sentence, she’s just blurting out ”helg seger!” With a raised arm. :crazy:
You can see on the face of the reporter how awkward he finds it, he doesn’t really know what to say.

And now she’s at it again. The other day she posted a pic of Anne Frank’s Diary on instagram with the caption ”50 pages in. So far she just seems immoral and very horny.” Rather expectedly this caused an outrage among Jewish organisations in Sweden, and even the Israeli ambassador to Sweden spoke out against it. She has now been pulled from the tv station and claims that her comment has been misinterpreted. That she meant to emphasize the humanity of Anne Frank. Right, because what better way to do that than calling someone immoral and horny, right? :roll:

https://www.jpost.com/omg/article-719764

And it is not just her. Their party secretary has previously stated that ”you can not be Jewish or Sami and at the same time Swedish. You have to choose.” Albeit it’s not really as simple as choosing. Their party programme states that Swedes are those who identify as Swedes and are seen as Swedish by other Swedes. That second part can be tricky, if you agree with their party secretary. Börje Salming, Ingemar Stenmark and Anja Pärsson are all part Sami. I’ve always thought of them as Swedes, but maybe I’m wrong? :wow:

And two of their elected representatives are currently serving time for murder. Just saying. :hmmm:
Last edited by Per on Sun Oct 16, 2022 11:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Old World Politics

Post by Cousin Strawberry »

It tells you how despondent swedes have been with the open door immigration policies you've suffered through doesn't it. If they elect right wing nuttery just to address this....things are clearly a mess
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Re: Old World Politics

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Shits a mess everywhere.

Smoke more weed and it'll all work out...
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Re: Old World Politics

Post by Cousin Strawberry »

donlever wrote: Sun Oct 16, 2022 8:41 am Shits a mess everywhere.

Smoke more weed and it'll all work out...
:lol:

Fuck ya Donny! It has a way of sorting shit out now doesn't it

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Re: Old World Politics

Post by 5thhorseman »

He seems pretty riled up, so he must have watched the games.
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Re: Old World Politics

Post by donlever »

Lol

Wrong on both counts 5th.

So nothings changed on your end I see....

:wink:
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Re: Old World Politics

Post by 5thhorseman »

Just a dramatic entrance then?

You have our attention! :)
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Re: Old World Politics

Post by donlever »

Finally.....
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Re: Old World Politics

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I should have known that nothing riles you up.

You've got people for that.
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Re: Old World Politics

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I've patterned my existence after rats19.
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Re: Old World Politics

Post by Cousin Strawberry »

Rats told me privately that his calm demeanor is due to edibles
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Re: Old World Politics

Post by donlever »

rats is almost as pure as I am.

Cuz is lying.
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Re: Old World Politics

Post by Cornuck »

donlever wrote: Sun Oct 16, 2022 12:12 pm I've patterned my existence after rats19.
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