Old World Politics

The primary goal of this site is to provide mature, meaningful discussion about the Vancouver Canucks. However, we all need a break some time so this forum is basically for anything off-topic, off the wall, or to just get something off your chest! This forum is named after poster Creeper, who passed away in July of 2011 and was a long time member of the Canucks message board community.

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Re: Old World Politics

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Cornuck wrote: Sun Oct 16, 2022 2:07 pm
donlever wrote: Sun Oct 16, 2022 12:12 pm I've patterned my existence after rats19.
Saint Rats - the Patron Saint of Hockey Forums.
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Re: Old World Politics

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You are all to to kind… 8-)
Silence intelligence so stupid isn’t offended….
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Re: Old World Politics

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Whisky makes me happy.
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Re: Old World Politics

Post by Cousin Strawberry »

2Fingers wrote: Sun Oct 16, 2022 3:07 pm Whisky makes me happy.
:lol:

I'm gonna start reading reefers posts in Ralphie Wiggins voice

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Re: Old World Politics

Post by Cousin Strawberry »

donlever wrote: Sun Oct 16, 2022 1:53 pm rats is almost as pure as I am.

Cuz is lying.
It's all the salmon. I found a Vancouver seafood distributor in Edmonton. Fresh Sockeye and coho slabs for $13/lb...I can reduce my laughing lettuce intake and bombard my medulla oblongata with the omega oils instead
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Re: Old World Politics

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Cornuck wrote: Sun Oct 16, 2022 2:07 pm
donlever wrote: Sun Oct 16, 2022 12:12 pm I've patterned my existence after rats19.
Saint Rats - the Patron Saint of Hockey Forums.
Donny, you are singular.

And while your appreciation for Rats19 is both universal and meritorious, there is only one saint on this board.
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Re: Old World Politics

Post by UWSaint »

Per wrote: Sun Oct 16, 2022 12:15 am
UWSaint wrote: Sat Oct 15, 2022 9:10 pm And Per, you know better than to call the new Italian government fascists. I know you’re not ignorant of history, so I have to presume that you aren’t as cynical/skeptical about the media narratives as you ought to be.
[proceeds to quote tired narratives]
I am not going to go through your whole post, Per, but a few points.

From the wiki entry:
Political commentators have variously described FdI as neo-fascist, post-fascist, right-wing, far-right, nationalist, conservative, socially conservative, national-conservative, right-wing populist, nativist and anti-immigration.
Which is it? Because these things aren't like one another.
In 2019, academic Đorđe Sredanović placed FdI, along with the neo-fascist parties CasaPound (a split from Tricolour Flame, which refused to join the National Alliance) and New Force (FN) from the Terza Posizione tradition, in the post-fascist/neo-fascist categories.
And many don't. What's the point here? I know in the US that the Southern Poverty Law Center takes great pains to identify anyone right of center with a nasty moniker. The progressive left in my country seems to have a belief that if you don't agree with them, you are a racist. Or a sexist. This categorization business is anything but objective. Let's look at what people say and do and not on the conspiracy theories of their opposition.
Meloni told Corriere della Sera there were no "nostalgic fascists, racists or antisemites in the Brothers of Italy DNA" and that she had always got rid of "ambiguous people", and in other interviews she said there was no place for fascist nostalgia in FdI. Critics have been sceptical, citing Meloni's speeches on immigration and LGBT rights.
Immigration...Didn't we establish earlier that wanting to reduce or manage immigration isn't by its nature fascist? I mean, all fascists might wish to restrict immigration, but that doesn't mean all people who oppose (or wish to lessen) immigration are fascists? Of course not -- its the kind of logical reasoning error that I was describing above: I am not a racist, I believe x and y, you don't believe in x and y, therefore you are a racist.

Here's the other thing -- a few years ago, Italy had a more restrictive immigration regime. Was it a fascist country? No. It was a government responding to the will of the electorate, and now this was a main issue in an Italian election and presumably the party getting the most votes got them in part because of people like their platform here.

As for LGBT rights -- Italy doesn't recognize gay marriage. Just like most of the world 20 years ago -- a time period in which, to my knowledge, there were no fascist countries in Europe. Meloni appears to oppose surrogacy -- I am not sure whether this is an opposition to commercial surrogacy applied to all, any surrogacy, or only LGBT couples creating families through surrogacy. This is a position I don't agree with, but you know, its not *fascist*. Its a position that it common in many democracies. (In the US, its a state by state regulation, but increasingly states recognize surrogacy as legal and none make a LGBT/not distinction. Many US states with pro-surrogacy laws see Europeans whose laws are less liberal set up their surrogacies here). The Catholic Church is against gay marriage and surrogacy (and IVF, for that matter). It is not a proponent of fascism.

No, it looks like this wiki entry is put together to advance (or at least support) the viewpoint if someone is one the right, they are on the "extreme right" and that if they are on the "extreme right" they are basically fascists. Its a tired and intellectually lazy trope. And its propaganda at least as powerful as an image with an eagle or something.

Last bit, there were lots of fascists in Italy, and in Europe more broadly. It was a political movement that found some success in part because it was offering something appealing to people -- and what was appealing is a lot more complex than the evils and excesses of fascism. Those evils strike me as quite awful and quite inevitable (to varying degrees) in *any* collectivist theory, whether the group is the state, the nation, or the workers of the world. But it wasn't that the fascist supporters thought, yeah, let's be fascist so we can do this evil stuff! No, these supporters believed that something about the political order wasn't working for them and wasn't addressing their problems or the country's problems. Those problems might persist, and its perfectly valid for a political party operating in the liberal order to try to develop policies that address those concerns. Now, I have no sympathy for fascism, but the fascists are people, too, and they ought to be allowed to participate in the political process, and it is far better to try to understand their complaints and reconcile them within the order of the liberal democratic system than to dismiss them because they are the concerns of fascists. This genealogy of the parties stuff is like a Dan Brown novel.
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Re: Old World Politics

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OK, UW, I enjoy reading your arguments. This is the kind of debate I enjoy engaging in. :thumbs:

So, two things:

1) I am aware that in the USA left wingers tend to call conservatives fascists and right wingers often call liberals communists. They are of course wrong. AOC and Bernie Sanders are not communists. By a European standard they’re run of the mill social democrats/labour politicians, which is considered mainstream here and certainly not extreme. And likewise Donald Trump and Ron Francis are not fascists. Imho they are not even conservatives, but rather right wing populists with no clear ideology. Pence is a conservative.

But, in Italy you do have actual communists and actual fascists. Their communist party used to be the biggest communist party in a western democracy, at times getting 30% of the vote, but they were never part of the national government as all other parties shunned them. They did run some local governments though, there were communist mayors etc. And they were not just liberals or socialists that wrre bad mouthed. They were dyed in the wool communists. On 1948 they had 31% of the vote but only won 130 of 574 seats in parliament. They peaked in 1976 with 34% of the vote and 228 of 630 seats in parliament. As recently as 1987 they had 26% of the vote and 177 seats in parliament, but then were disbanded as the Soviet Union ended in 1991. In 2009 a new comm7nist party eas formed, but they have so far failed to get even 1% of the vote and have no seats in parliament. They do have a seat in the senate though, as a senator originally elected for the five star movement decided to switch party. In the 2022 elections they joined forces with two other tiny parties in a joint effort, but failed to win any seats. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_Communist_Party

The fascist leadership after the war, when the fascist party was banned, reorganised and formed the MSI, choosing as their party symbol the tricolor flame, symbolising an eternal flame burning at Musdolini’s tomb. There has never been any secret that the MSI was a fascist party, except that they could not use that name. But they celebrated the leadership of Mussolini and were opposed to liberal democracy. At their peak in the 1960’s they were the fourth largest party in Italy. In the 1990’s Fini, who was the party leader at that point, tried to break with its fascist past, renamed it the National Alliance, got rid of the flame and ended up becoming part of Berlusconi’s government coalition. In 1995 the party was dissolved as a result of internal strife. A number of smaller parties were formed, including a more hardcore fascist one, aplty named The Tricolor Flame, merging and splitting and eventually Fratelli d’Italia came about, adopting the old fascist symbol, the tricolor flame, as their party symbol. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_Social_Movement

2) I don’t consider Fratelli d’Italia fascist because of their policies. I haven’t really read up on it that well.

There are a handful of other things that bring me to that conclusion though. Meloni was a member of the MSI youth league, a fascist organisation, when she was younger, and she is on record praising the leadership of Mussolini. Also, it is clear that at least some members of Fratelli d’Italia are openly fascist, especially the ones insisting on doing the ”Roman salute”, ie the same raised arm that the nazis later copied, but that originally is a fascist greeting. And most importantly, their choice of the tricolor flame as their party symbol. I mean, if a party choose the swastika as their party symbol, I will assume thst they are nazis. If they have a hammer and sickle I will assume they are communist. This is the same thing. Their symbol is a traditional symbol of Italian fascism. It will be very hard to convince me that that doesn’t mean anything.

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Re: Old World Politics

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Per wrote: Mon Oct 17, 2022 2:19 pm 2) I don’t consider Fratelli d’Italia fascist because of their policies. I haven’t really read up on it that well.

There are a handful of other things that bring me to that conclusion though. Meloni was a member of the MSI youth league, a fascist organisation, when she was younger, and she is on record praising the leadership of Mussolini. Also, it is clear that at least some members of Fratelli d’Italia are openly fascist, especially the ones insisting on doing the ”Roman salute”, ie the same raised arm that the nazis later copied, but that originally is a fascist greeting. And most importantly, their choice of the tricolor flame as their party symbol. I mean, if a party choose the swastika as their party symbol, I will assume thst they are nazis. If they have a hammer and sickle I will assume they are communist. This is the same thing. Their symbol is a traditional symbol of Italian fascism. It will be very hard to convince me that that doesn’t mean anything.
So you would also conclude that Justin Trudeau, and consequently his government, are a communist dictatorship (or at least trying to be one)?

He has publicly praised Fidel Castro as a great leader, as well as gone on record as saying he greatly admires the Chinese government.
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Re: Old World Politics

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Mëds wrote: Tue Oct 18, 2022 7:16 am
Per wrote: Mon Oct 17, 2022 2:19 pm 2) I don’t consider Fratelli d’Italia fascist because of their policies. I haven’t really read up on it that well.

There are a handful of other things that bring me to that conclusion though. Meloni was a member of the MSI youth league, a fascist organisation, when she was younger, and she is on record praising the leadership of Mussolini. Also, it is clear that at least some members of Fratelli d’Italia are openly fascist, especially the ones insisting on doing the ”Roman salute”, ie the same raised arm that the nazis later copied, but that originally is a fascist greeting. And most importantly, their choice of the tricolor flame as their party symbol. I mean, if a party choose the swastika as their party symbol, I will assume thst they are nazis. If they have a hammer and sickle I will assume they are communist. This is the same thing. Their symbol is a traditional symbol of Italian fascism. It will be very hard to convince me that that doesn’t mean anything.
So you would also conclude that Justin Trudeau, and consequently his government, are a communist dictatorship (or at least trying to be one)?

He has publicly praised Fidel Castro as a great leader, as well as gone on record as saying he greatly admires the Chinese government.
C'mon Mëds, Trudeau doesn't have a hammer & sickle logo. "Emergency powers" to address government protests, suspending parliament, etc., but no logo. At any rate, I don't think Trudeau admires the Marxism as much as totalitarian efficiency.

I also noticed that a lot of conservative ergo extreme right winger Canadians fly the Canadian flag. Just sayin. In all of us command!
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Re: Old World Politics

Post by Per »

Mëds wrote: Tue Oct 18, 2022 7:16 am
So you would also conclude that Justin Trudeau, and consequently his government, are a communist dictatorship (or at least trying to be one)?

He has publicly praised Fidel Castro as a great leader, as well as gone on record as saying he greatly admires the Chinese government.
I doubt he wants to turn Canada communist, but I definitely find those endorsements of dictators and dictatorships very troubling.
I probably wouldn’t vote for a candidate with that kind of ideological problems.
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Re: Old World Politics

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Per wrote: Mon Oct 17, 2022 2:19 pm OK, UW, I enjoy reading your arguments. This is the kind of debate I enjoy engaging in. :thumbs:
...
2) I don’t consider Fratelli d’Italia fascist because of their policies. I haven’t really read up on it that well.
...
Well, that's a pretty important thing, isn't it? Does this party wish to dismantle a liberal democracy in favor of a nationalist state with "show" elections, corporatist policies and institutions, unequally apply laws or abandon any semblance of due process based on identity, jail (or worse) political opponents under the guise of threats to the nation (which really means the party), and centralize power in a leader such that parliament and the judiciary are puppets to the regime? That there could be some members of the party who wish for this secretly (and sometimes openly) doesn't address my point that the Italian government is not fascist and there really isn't strong evidence that it will move the Italian state to some kind of neo-fascism. When the best evidence of "policies" that I've seen from Brothers of Italy opponents of their fascism relate to cultural issues where the controlling party seems to be Catholic-inspired but still Catholic-lite, I am really unpersuaded because that's how "traditional" cultural stances are always addressed by progressive opponents. Against gay marriage -- fascists! Policies that encourage more children and family until -- chauvanist/patriarchy/fascist! Its just ad hominem. Yawn.

Your point about the symbolism is not meaningless, but it is also not determinative. One of the things that you've done is make the assumption that MSI is fascist without unpacking that. I have no doubt that there were lots and lots of Italian fascists post-war since there were lots and lots of Italian fascists pre-war. I have no doubt that many joined MSI. But what I don't know (and this is a part of my ignorance disclosed on my first post) is how former fascists blended into the liberal democratic system -- how many want a return of Mussolini and how many wanted to keep the communists at bay and did not believe in the liberal parties because (in the view of the MSI) they were not tough enough -- or aware enough -- of the threats Italian communism posed. Or because, you know, these MSI members weren't on board with the entire liberal project, which in Europe (unlike America) is born from the continental enlightenment and could be pretty hostile to traditional institutions. The facts on the ground in pre-WWII Spain, Italy, Portugal, Germany, and other countries were that the center could not hold, and those jumped ship often chose what they believed to be a lesser evil -- either than liberalism or than the other pole -- to fight fascists, join the communists, to fight communists, join the fascists. I think its fair to say there are a lot more fascists and a lot more communists in countries that have an ineffectual liberal order. But if that liberal order is responsive, dynamic, stable, many of those people drawn to communism mostly find homes in left wing parties that seek to operated in the order and discard their extremism and many of those people drawn to fascism find homes in right wing political parties who seek to operate within the order and discard their extremism.

I don't know the impact of the tri-color flame. I don't know what it means as a symbol. I don't know if it has a complex sometimes conflicting meaning. Because of the nazis, the swastika is almost universally understood to mean all the evils of Nazi Germany, and you know, the Nazis were awful in every way. But other nazi symbols hardly have the same impact. And other fascists weren't nazis. They were bad, but lacked either the total control or had some limitations that basically made them not all that different that the many not-quite-totalitarian regimes that exist in many many countries today.

In my country, the Confederate flag doesn't have a singular meaning. It is approaching one now -- but for many years it stood for many different things to the people who flew it. The boys in the Dukes of Hazzard weren't longing for the plantation days and I don't think they were white supremicists. But they were rebels. They were "good ol' boys," which is also a rejection of the culture of urban elites. Is the tri-color flame like that? Might it have multiple meanings, like, say, Italian patriotism? I don't know -- I'm culturally divorced from the context. But I do know enough that there's great profit (non-monetary) to be made by making one's political opponents out to be extremists, and one of the best ways to do that is by symbolic reductionism.
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Re: Old World Politics

Post by Per »

So, it seems Britain just got their first Hindu prime minister.

This guy - Sunak - seems sane though. It stood between him and Liz Truss before, and he was clear thst her economic policies were pure madness. Then the conservative party members choose her anyway, and then she proved him right.

A general election at this point would mean a lanslide victory for Labour, but the Tories can wait another two years before they are forced to hold one, and if Sunak can turn things around, they may stand a better chance by then.

Sunak was secretary of finance under BoJo and did a pretty good job as such. He is smart and well educated and knows how the markets work. I have a lot more trust in this guy than in either of May, Boris or Liz. We’ll see.

The negative effects of Brexit are beginning to shine through though, and there is not much he can do about that. By leaving the common market the Brits have given their own companies a severe disadvantage when trying to trade with their closest neighbours. Few EU companies are willing to take on the hassle and red tape involved in buying stuff from Britain instead of from a competitor within the EU. Especially since transports now take much longer as they have to pass through customs. Just not worth it. The Brits will have to undercut EU companies by quite a lot to make it interesting, and of course that reduces their profit margin. Then take into account that most British companies weren’t that competitive to begin with. And since the Poles went home they don’t have enough truck drivers.
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Re: Old World Politics

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Massive police raids in Germany today against a right wing organisation planning to overthrow the government.

From what I hear they infiltrated this group early this year already, but have just been monitoring them.

Last week the head of the group, Prince Heinrich XIII, allegedly visited the Russian consulate in Leipzig.
The group is too small to really pose a substantial threat, but they are heavily armed and an attack on parliament coukd have led to lots of people being killed or injured.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-63885028
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Re: Old World Politics

Post by Per »

OK, moving this into Old World Politics instead. Sure, the first post, or especially your comment, ties in with Brexit, but it’s really more about EU politics. :|
Strangelove wrote: Mon Dec 12, 2022 3:36 pm https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B1hVXSNeMXQ



Are ALL socialist leaders moneygrubbing crooks?

Good on the UK for getting out while the getting was good...
Strangelove wrote: Mon Dec 12, 2022 3:41 pm https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7WjbeZVfrLA



Whoa, talk about selling one's soul...
Well, the good news is that this is not accepted and will not fly in the EU parliament. Arrests have been made, an almost unanimous vote stripped Kalia of her ”vice president” role in parliament (which is really more like assistant speaker), and the president (ie speaker) of the EU parliament is already suggesting reforms that will make it even harder for MEPs to get away with corruption.



And in the clip with Farage you hear him complain about OLAF breathing down his neck repeatedly, accusing him of financial shenanigans. The EU takes the fight against corruption seriously. It’s not like the UK, where the leave campaign could violate election laws and accept huge amounts of Russian money with impunity. :roll:

With the risk of sounding prejudiced I am also going to say that it doesn’t seem that shocking to find out that some of the most high profile people getting caught with their hands in the cookie jar were from Greece…. They were also the ones faking their financial figures so that they could qualify for switching to the Euro, which led to some serious financial woes for the Eurozone and in the end meant Greece had to go through some really serious austerity measures until they really did live up the criteria necessary.

Corruption (often with Russian oligarchs involved) has also been a huge problem in many former East Block countries, which is why they need to be so carefully vetted before they are allowed in.
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