Kneecaps

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Topper
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Re: Kneecaps

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Tacoma bridge was apparently designed with an imaginary number (square root of a negative number) in the calculations. Junior high math.
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Re: Kneecaps

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5thhorseman wrote: Fri Dec 31, 2021 11:29 am
BCExpat wrote: Fri Dec 31, 2021 11:11 am
Topper wrote: Thu Dec 30, 2021 3:19 pm We're stupid Indians and Blacks and everyone should be as stupid as us.

https://nationalpost.com/opinion/randal ... competence
Unbelievable. Just what we want to see in the future - an engineer that can't pass a math test, designing a bridge :? :shock: .
That article is about teachers, not engineers.
I realize that it is about teachers, but they are the ones teaching math to future engineers. I know it's a different ball game once you get to university, but basic math is taught in elementary and high school - by teachers who apparently don't need to pass any math exams to qualify for teaching math. Math is basically a science - you either get the right answer and understand it, or you don't. I don't want anyone who can't pass a math test to be teaching my grand kids math.
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Re: Kneecaps

Post by Carl Yagro »

I math agree with BCE.

(say that like Mike Tyson would)
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Re: Kneecaps

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BCExpat wrote: Fri Dec 31, 2021 1:49 pm
5thhorseman wrote: Fri Dec 31, 2021 11:29 am
BCExpat wrote: Fri Dec 31, 2021 11:11 am
Topper wrote: Thu Dec 30, 2021 3:19 pm We're stupid Indians and Blacks and everyone should be as stupid as us.

https://nationalpost.com/opinion/randal ... competence
Unbelievable. Just what we want to see in the future - an engineer that can't pass a math test, designing a bridge :? :shock: .
That article is about teachers, not engineers.
I realize that it is about teachers, but they are the ones teaching math to future engineers. I know it's a different ball game once you get to university, but basic math is taught in elementary and high school - by teachers who apparently don't need to pass any math exams to qualify for teaching math. Math is basically a science - you either get the right answer and understand it, or you don't. I don't want anyone who can't pass a math test to be teaching my grand kids math.
I agree with your sentiments BCE, but the article is clickbait material that paints the issue as a binary choice between competence and race. There's more than one way to skin a cat, the math exam being found by the court to be a poor choice. The court is not saying race is more important.

According to the article, the teacher training program doesn't even have a mandatory math course! So maybe start there instead?
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Re: Kneecaps

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5thhorseman wrote: Fri Dec 31, 2021 2:52 pm
BCExpat wrote: Fri Dec 31, 2021 1:49 pm
5thhorseman wrote: Fri Dec 31, 2021 11:29 am
BCExpat wrote: Fri Dec 31, 2021 11:11 am
Topper wrote: Thu Dec 30, 2021 3:19 pm We're stupid Indians and Blacks and everyone should be as stupid as us.

https://nationalpost.com/opinion/randal ... competence
Unbelievable. Just what we want to see in the future - an engineer that can't pass a math test, designing a bridge :? :shock: .
That article is about teachers, not engineers.
I realize that it is about teachers, but they are the ones teaching math to future engineers. I know it's a different ball game once you get to university, but basic math is taught in elementary and high school - by teachers who apparently don't need to pass any math exams to qualify for teaching math. Math is basically a science - you either get the right answer and understand it, or you don't. I don't want anyone who can't pass a math test to be teaching my grand kids math.
I agree with your sentiments BCE, but the article is clickbait material that paints the issue as a binary choice between competence and race. There's more than one way to skin a cat, the math exam being found by the court to be a poor choice. The court is not saying race is more important.

According to the article, the teacher training program doesn't even have a mandatory math course! So maybe start there instead?
But they would have high school, that they are complaining is the problem, and then a 4 year BA or BSc program before reaching the 2 year teaching program.

We're talking 9th grade math competency for someone with BA or a BSc. They should hit a night class at a local community college if they need a refresher of high school math.
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Re: Kneecaps

Post by Cousin Strawberry »

Wait...what does Mathonwy have to say on the mather
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Re: Kneecaps

Post by Meds »

5thhorseman wrote: Fri Dec 31, 2021 2:52 pm
BCExpat wrote: Fri Dec 31, 2021 1:49 pm
5thhorseman wrote: Fri Dec 31, 2021 11:29 am
BCExpat wrote: Fri Dec 31, 2021 11:11 am
Topper wrote: Thu Dec 30, 2021 3:19 pm We're stupid Indians and Blacks and everyone should be as stupid as us.

https://nationalpost.com/opinion/randal ... competence
Unbelievable. Just what we want to see in the future - an engineer that can't pass a math test, designing a bridge :? :shock: .
That article is about teachers, not engineers.
I realize that it is about teachers, but they are the ones teaching math to future engineers. I know it's a different ball game once you get to university, but basic math is taught in elementary and high school - by teachers who apparently don't need to pass any math exams to qualify for teaching math. Math is basically a science - you either get the right answer and understand it, or you don't. I don't want anyone who can't pass a math test to be teaching my grand kids math.
I agree with your sentiments BCE, but the article is clickbait material that paints the issue as a binary choice between competence and race. There's more than one way to skin a cat, the math exam being found by the court to be a poor choice. The court is not saying race is more important.

According to the article, the teacher training program doesn't even have a mandatory math course! So maybe start there instead?
Common sense says that the judges should have thrown the case out. Why does a math test at the post-graduate level even need to be analyzed through the lens of racial inequality?

Click bait indeed.
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Re: Kneecaps

Post by 5thhorseman »

Topper wrote: Fri Dec 31, 2021 3:41 pm
5thhorseman wrote: Fri Dec 31, 2021 2:52 pm
BCExpat wrote: Fri Dec 31, 2021 1:49 pm
5thhorseman wrote: Fri Dec 31, 2021 11:29 am
BCExpat wrote: Fri Dec 31, 2021 11:11 am
Topper wrote: Thu Dec 30, 2021 3:19 pm We're stupid Indians and Blacks and everyone should be as stupid as us.

https://nationalpost.com/opinion/randal ... competence
Unbelievable. Just what we want to see in the future - an engineer that can't pass a math test, designing a bridge :? :shock: .
That article is about teachers, not engineers.
I realize that it is about teachers, but they are the ones teaching math to future engineers. I know it's a different ball game once you get to university, but basic math is taught in elementary and high school - by teachers who apparently don't need to pass any math exams to qualify for teaching math. Math is basically a science - you either get the right answer and understand it, or you don't. I don't want anyone who can't pass a math test to be teaching my grand kids math.
I agree with your sentiments BCE, but the article is clickbait material that paints the issue as a binary choice between competence and race. There's more than one way to skin a cat, the math exam being found by the court to be a poor choice. The court is not saying race is more important.

According to the article, the teacher training program doesn't even have a mandatory math course! So maybe start there instead?
But they would have high school, that they are complaining is the problem, and then a 4 year BA or BSc program before reaching the 2 year teaching program.

We're talking 9th grade math competency for someone with BA or a BSc. They should hit a night class at a local community college if they need a refresher of high school math.
Sure they could. And some might. But others might not due to cost, time available, location of said course, etc. etc. So it remains that the math competency testing still disadvantages minorities.

Add to that the evidence that there is only a weak correlation between math competency testing and improved student outcomes and the whole idea looks like a poor choice.

It's much more fair for the Ministry of Education to just add some math courses to the curriculum to achieve their stated objective.
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Re: Kneecaps

Post by 5thhorseman »

Mëds wrote: Sat Jan 01, 2022 7:29 am Why does a math test at the post-graduate level even need to be analyzed through the lens of racial inequality?
Because it is government legislation and therefore is subject to Section 15 of the Charter of Rights and Freedoms.
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Re: Kneecaps

Post by Topper »

5thhorseman wrote: Sat Jan 01, 2022 11:09 am
Topper wrote: Fri Dec 31, 2021 3:41 pm
5thhorseman wrote: Fri Dec 31, 2021 2:52 pm
BCExpat wrote: Fri Dec 31, 2021 1:49 pm
5thhorseman wrote: Fri Dec 31, 2021 11:29 am
BCExpat wrote: Fri Dec 31, 2021 11:11 am
Topper wrote: Thu Dec 30, 2021 3:19 pm We're stupid Indians and Blacks and everyone should be as stupid as us.

https://nationalpost.com/opinion/randal ... competence
Unbelievable. Just what we want to see in the future - an engineer that can't pass a math test, designing a bridge :? :shock: .
That article is about teachers, not engineers.
I realize that it is about teachers, but they are the ones teaching math to future engineers. I know it's a different ball game once you get to university, but basic math is taught in elementary and high school - by teachers who apparently don't need to pass any math exams to qualify for teaching math. Math is basically a science - you either get the right answer and understand it, or you don't. I don't want anyone who can't pass a math test to be teaching my grand kids math.
I agree with your sentiments BCE, but the article is clickbait material that paints the issue as a binary choice between competence and race. There's more than one way to skin a cat, the math exam being found by the court to be a poor choice. The court is not saying race is more important.

According to the article, the teacher training program doesn't even have a mandatory math course! So maybe start there instead?
But they would have high school, that they are complaining is the problem, and then a 4 year BA or BSc program before reaching the 2 year teaching program.

We're talking 9th grade math competency for someone with BA or a BSc. They should hit a night class at a local community college if they need a refresher of high school math.
Sure they could. And some might. But others might not due to cost, time available, location of said course, etc. etc. So it remains that the math competency testing still disadvantages minorities.

Add to that the evidence that there is only a weak correlation between math competency testing and improved student outcomes and the whole idea looks like a poor choice.

It's much more fair for the Ministry of Education to just add some math courses to the curriculum to achieve their stated objective.
Cost is free, available as day or night classes in a community as small as 4,000. Much smaller than where they have done their university degrees and teaching certificates.

The government already makes the programs widely available and knowing it is required it is up to the student to make sure of they qualifications.

Easier than getting a first aid ticket required in many jobs
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Re: Kneecaps

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Topper wrote: Sat Jan 01, 2022 11:43 am Easier than getting a first aid ticket required in many jobs
I'm sure for people like you and I, Topper, Grade 9 math is a breeze (imaginary numbers notwithstanding), but for many people it is incredibly hard. It's just not their strong suit.

That said, as a parent, if one of my kids was enrolled in the B. Ed. program working toward being, say, a History teacher, but was required to pass a Grade 9 math competency test, I'd tell them exactly what you're saying: get your ass down to the community college, upgrade your math, and pass the test. It doesn't matter whether he needs math in his chosen career or if he is any good at it; just get on with it.

You can't take the same approach as a judge or government policy setter, however. You have to level the playing field and not just assume everyone can jump through every hoop, no matter how easy those hoops seem to you. There's a reason Blacks and Indigenous persons had a pass rate of 70% compared to 90% for whites, and I highly doubt it's because they were too lazy to enroll in a free course.
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Re: Kneecaps

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Getting BA or a BSc and a teaching certificate of a big hoop the student has chosen to jump through.

Screaming, "it's not fair" has no place in post secondary education.
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Re: Kneecaps

Post by Meds »

5thhorseman wrote: Sat Jan 01, 2022 11:27 am
Mëds wrote: Sat Jan 01, 2022 7:29 am Why does a math test at the post-graduate level even need to be analyzed through the lens of racial inequality?
Because it is government legislation and therefore is subject to Section 15 of the Charter of Rights and Freedoms.
Why is race a factor in cognitive ability?

It shouldn’t be. Tests are tests.

When I started out in my career path I had to score 90% to pass (some schools were 80%)…..the rationale was that you don’t want someone showing up to manage a medical crisis knowing only 51% of what they needed to know. It’s now down into the 65-75 range because of “woke” liberal nonsense needing to make things easy enough so people don’t have to experience the negative mental health and emotional setbacks of failure.

And in this case we are talking about people with university education. Why is race a consideration? This isn’t a case of “disadvantaged” children or youth.
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Re: Kneecaps

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Topper wrote: Sat Jan 01, 2022 8:52 pm Getting BA or a BSc and a teaching certificate of a big hoop the student has chosen to jump through.

Screaming, "it's not fair" has no place in post secondary education.
That's a pretty broad stroke you're painting there, Topper.

So if your son wanted to enter the Engineering program and was rejected because they had to meet a certain quota for women, he shouldn't complain?

Or if he couldn't get into a top school even though he deserved it because the school's donor's children were accepted ahead of him, he should just accept it?

Sorry, I don't believe you.
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Re: Kneecaps

Post by 5thhorseman »

Mëds wrote: Sat Jan 01, 2022 10:16 pm
5thhorseman wrote: Sat Jan 01, 2022 11:27 am
Mëds wrote: Sat Jan 01, 2022 7:29 am Why does a math test at the post-graduate level even need to be analyzed through the lens of racial inequality?
Because it is government legislation and therefore is subject to Section 15 of the Charter of Rights and Freedoms.
Why is race a factor in cognitive ability?

It shouldn’t be. Tests are tests.

When I started out in my career path I had to score 90% to pass (some schools were 80%)…..the rationale was that you don’t want someone showing up to manage a medical crisis knowing only 51% of what they needed to know. It’s now down into the 65-75 range because of “woke” liberal nonsense needing to make things easy enough so people don’t have to experience the negative mental health and emotional setbacks of failure.

And in this case we are talking about people with university education. Why is race a consideration? This isn’t a case of “disadvantaged” children or youth.
Generally yes, tests are tests. They aren't inherently discriminatory unless the questions themselves are biased. So for example, in a math exam some word problems might trip up students of a lower socioeconomic status because they don't have as good a vocabulary. Suddenly you're not testing math anymore, you're testing vocabulary, so it's considered discriminatory. But I digress, that's not the issue here.

The test is discriminatory because there is an acknowledgement that certain groups have been historically discriminated against (resulting in poor math knowledge), and that the perpetuation of such discrimination (by the test acting as a barrier to teacher certification) should be curtailed. This is coming straight from https://www.justice.gc.ca/eng/csj-sjc/r ... art15.html.

It's important to note that the legal system doesn't apply this as a hard and fast rule. The courts will weight the pros and cons, and that's what most people commenting on news stories and on social media don't seem to get. They just give their kneejerk opinion.

Specifically in this case:
  • The test for a s. 1 justification is that established by R. v. Oakes, [1986] 1 S.C.R. 103. The
    Oakes test has two components: (1) is the legislative goal pressing and substantial; and (2)
    is there proportionality between that goal and the means used to achieve it? The second
    component of the test has three parts: (a) is there a “rational connection” between the
    impugned measure and the pressing and substantial objective; (b) does the limit impair the
    right or freedom no more than is reasonably necessary to accomplish the objective; and (c)
    is there proportionality between the deleterious and salutary effects of the law?
The courts concluded that:
  • (1) yes, the legislative goal (increasing math competency) is pressing and substantial (or at least they said that they wouldn't question it),
  • (2a) yes, the competency test is rationally connected to the legislative goal (obviously),
  • (2b) no, the competency test does not minimally impair the rights of racialized teacher candidates (there are other means of achieving the goal which do not impair rights, such as including math courses in the curriculum),
  • (2c) no, the benefits of the competency test do not outweigh the deleterious effects (the benefits are doubtful as there is only a weak correlation with improved student outcomes.
This looks like good reasoning to me.

What would it take to allow the test? If there was evidence that math competency testing had a high correlation with improve student outcomes, and that there were no other reasonable options, then it's quite possible the opposite decision would have been reached, regardless of how discriminatory the test is. So yeah, it's situational.

This is just a small part of the deliberations. There's a hell of a lot more if you want to read the ruling but I don't think most people care to read about a constitutional law case. Unfortunately for these things you really need to get into the weeds to understand them properly.
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