Kneecaps

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Meds
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Re: Kneecaps

Post by Meds »

5thhorseman wrote: Sun Jan 02, 2022 8:51 pm
Mëds wrote: Sat Jan 01, 2022 10:16 pm
5thhorseman wrote: Sat Jan 01, 2022 11:27 am
Mëds wrote: Sat Jan 01, 2022 7:29 am Why does a math test at the post-graduate level even need to be analyzed through the lens of racial inequality?
Because it is government legislation and therefore is subject to Section 15 of the Charter of Rights and Freedoms.
Why is race a factor in cognitive ability?

It shouldn’t be. Tests are tests.

When I started out in my career path I had to score 90% to pass (some schools were 80%)…..the rationale was that you don’t want someone showing up to manage a medical crisis knowing only 51% of what they needed to know. It’s now down into the 65-75 range because of “woke” liberal nonsense needing to make things easy enough so people don’t have to experience the negative mental health and emotional setbacks of failure.

And in this case we are talking about people with university education. Why is race a consideration? This isn’t a case of “disadvantaged” children or youth.
Generally yes, tests are tests. They aren't inherently discriminatory unless the questions themselves are biased. So for example, in a math exam some word problems might trip up students of a lower socioeconomic status because they don't have as good a vocabulary. Suddenly you're not testing math anymore, you're testing vocabulary, so it's considered discriminatory. But I digress, that's not the issue here.

The test is discriminatory because there is an acknowledgement that certain groups have been historically discriminated against (resulting in poor math knowledge), and that the perpetuation of such discrimination (by the test acting as a barrier to teacher certification) should be curtailed. This is coming straight from https://www.justice.gc.ca/eng/csj-sjc/r ... art15.html.

It's important to note that the legal system doesn't apply this as a hard and fast rule. The courts will weight the pros and cons, and that's what most people commenting on news stories and on social media don't seem to get. They just give their kneejerk opinion.

Specifically in this case:
  • The test for a s. 1 justification is that established by R. v. Oakes, [1986] 1 S.C.R. 103. The
    Oakes test has two components: (1) is the legislative goal pressing and substantial; and (2)
    is there proportionality between that goal and the means used to achieve it? The second
    component of the test has three parts: (a) is there a “rational connection” between the
    impugned measure and the pressing and substantial objective; (b) does the limit impair the
    right or freedom no more than is reasonably necessary to accomplish the objective; and (c)
    is there proportionality between the deleterious and salutary effects of the law?
The courts concluded that:
  • (1) yes, the legislative goal (increasing math competency) is pressing and substantial (or at least they said that they wouldn't question it),
  • (2a) yes, the competency test is rationally connected to the legislative goal (obviously),
  • (2b) no, the competency test does not minimally impair the rights of racialized teacher candidates (there are other means of achieving the goal which do not impair rights, such as including math courses in the curriculum),
  • (2c) no, the benefits of the competency test do not outweigh the deleterious effects (the benefits are doubtful as there is only a weak correlation with improved student outcomes.
This looks like good reasoning to me.

What would it take to allow the test? If there was evidence that math competency testing had a high correlation with improve student outcomes, and that there were no other reasonable options, then it's quite possible the opposite decision would have been reached, regardless of how discriminatory the test is. So yeah, it's situational.

This is just a small part of the deliberations. There's a hell of a lot more if you want to read the ruling but I don't think most people care to read about a constitutional law case. Unfortunately for these things you really need to get into the weeds to understand them properly.
From my limited understanding of this case the issue is that post-graduate individuals are being tested on whether or not they are competent at a grade 9 math level. None of what you have quoted above gives any sort of explanation as to why race has anything to do with it.

Could the issue actually be that a higher percentage of blacks and first nations are enrolling in university courses that focus on arts and literature whereas the enrollments in sciences see a higher percentage of whites and asian individuals?

The rationale that the judge should use is that if individuals want to be teachers then they should be tested on the subjects they plan to teach.

In the case of primary education one teacher has to teach one class all of the subject material, in BC this was the case up to grade 7 when I was a kid. Therefore the test should assess the competence of the prospective teacher up to the grade 7 level. Also, it is not unreasonable to set the bar a mere one or two grade levels above what a person is expected to be able to teach.

Either way, take race out of the equation entirely.
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Re: Kneecaps

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5thhorseman wrote: Sun Jan 02, 2022 8:18 pm
Topper wrote: Sat Jan 01, 2022 8:52 pm Getting BA or a BSc and a teaching certificate of a big hoop the student has chosen to jump through.

Screaming, "it's not fair" has no place in post secondary education.
That's a pretty broad stroke you're painting there, Topper.

So if your son wanted to enter the Engineering program and was rejected because they had to meet a certain quota for women, he shouldn't complain?

Or if he couldn't get into a top school even though he deserved it because the school's donor's children were accepted ahead of him, he should just accept it?

Sorry, I don't believe you.
So you now agree with me, these racial or gender based rules are wrong.

Thanks for coming out.
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Re: Kneecaps

Post by 5thhorseman »

Topper wrote: Sun Jan 02, 2022 11:30 pm
5thhorseman wrote: Sun Jan 02, 2022 8:18 pm
Topper wrote: Sat Jan 01, 2022 8:52 pm Getting BA or a BSc and a teaching certificate of a big hoop the student has chosen to jump through.

Screaming, "it's not fair" has no place in post secondary education.
That's a pretty broad stroke you're painting there, Topper.

So if your son wanted to enter the Engineering program and was rejected because they had to meet a certain quota for women, he shouldn't complain?

Or if he couldn't get into a top school even though he deserved it because the school's donor's children were accepted ahead of him, he should just accept it?

Sorry, I don't believe you.
So you now agree with me, these racial or gender based rules are wrong.

Thanks for coming out.
It seems you're getting confused, so let's recap.

1. You said "Screaming, 'it's not fair' has no place in post secondary education."

2. I gave a couple of examples in which you, Topper, might scream "It's not fair!".

3. You didn't disagree with my examples. In fact, you indicated that they are valid complaints.

4. Therefore, you are wrong about (1).

Possibly the source of your confusion is a belief that I also think those are valid complaints, however I said no such thing. I'm sure a reading comprehension course in your local community college could help with that. :)

More likely your confusion is due to your emotional attachment to this issue which is obvious in your characterisation of the complainants as "screaming". There's no screaming going on here. There's no protesters blocking your road.
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Re: Kneecaps

Post by 5thhorseman »

Mëds wrote: Sun Jan 02, 2022 10:40 pm From my limited understanding of this case the issue is that post-graduate individuals are being tested on whether or not they are competent at a grade 9 math level and that this has a disproportionate adverse impact on entry to the teaching profession for racialized teacher candidates.
Corrected above.
Mëds wrote: Sun Jan 02, 2022 10:40 pm None of what you have quoted above gives any sort of explanation as to why race has anything to do with it.
I had quoted from the government website on the Charter of Rights and Freedoms. I'll requote it more completely below, adding my comments in parentheses. We could get into more detail but we'd be swimming in legalese.

At the root of s. 15 is the awareness that certain groups have been historically discriminated against (resulting in poor math knowledge), and that the perpetuation of such discrimination (by the test acting as a barrier to teacher certification) should be curtailed.

I think the root of your disagreement with this is that you view the math test requirement as neutral. And you're correct, it is neutral. However, the case law quoted by the ruling is clear. The law "protects against adverse impact discrimination, which occurs when neutral laws have a disproportionate impact on members of enumerated or analogous groups."

So it doesn't matter if the math competency test is neutral or not. You might not agree with that, but that's how our law works.
Mëds wrote: Sun Jan 02, 2022 10:40 pm Could the issue actually be that a higher percentage of blacks and first nations are enrolling in university courses that focus on arts and literature whereas the enrollments in sciences see a higher percentage of whites and asian individuals?
Yes, this seems like a good point but in fact this is just another example of how Black and Indigenous students have been affected by past discrimination. As per the ruling, "black and Indigenous students tend to be overrepresented in less challenging, basic and general level courses, and under-represented in advanced courses."
Mëds wrote: Sun Jan 02, 2022 10:40 pm The rationale that the judge should use is that if individuals want to be teachers then they should be tested on the subjects they plan to teach.

In the case of primary education one teacher has to teach one class all of the subject material, in BC this was the case up to grade 7 when I was a kid. Therefore the test should assess the competence of the prospective teacher up to the grade 7 level. Also, it is not unreasonable to set the bar a mere one or two grade levels above what a person is expected to be able to teach.

Either way, take race out of the equation entirely.
This is already the case. In order to teach math beyond Grade 6 in Ontario, an additional certification (and presumably passing a test) is required.
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Re: Kneecaps

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5th now agreeing bias is wrong

LOL
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Re: Kneecaps

Post by BCExpat »

Future primary math test - multiple choice question:

1 + 2 = ?
a) 3
b) all of the above

:roll: :lol:
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Re: Kneecaps

Post by donlever »

BCExpat wrote: Mon Jan 03, 2022 11:21 am Future primary math test - multiple choice question:

1 + 2 = ?
a) 3
b) all of the above

:roll: :lol:
c) how may white folk have been given an unfair advantage over you
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Re: Kneecaps

Post by Topper »

can I drum my answer?
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Re: Kneecaps

Post by Meds »

5thhorseman wrote: Mon Jan 03, 2022 10:13 am
Mëds wrote: Sun Jan 02, 2022 10:40 pm From my limited understanding of this case the issue is that post-graduate individuals are being tested on whether or not they are competent at a grade 9 math level and that this has a disproportionate adverse impact on entry to the teaching profession for racialized teacher candidates.
Corrected above.
Mëds wrote: Sun Jan 02, 2022 10:40 pm None of what you have quoted above gives any sort of explanation as to why race has anything to do with it.
I had quoted from the government website on the Charter of Rights and Freedoms. I'll requote it more completely below, adding my comments in parentheses. We could get into more detail but we'd be swimming in legalese.

At the root of s. 15 is the awareness that certain groups have been historically discriminated against (resulting in poor math knowledge), and that the perpetuation of such discrimination (by the test acting as a barrier to teacher certification) should be curtailed.

I think the root of your disagreement with this is that you view the math test requirement as neutral. And you're correct, it is neutral. However, the case law quoted by the ruling is clear. The law "protects against adverse impact discrimination, which occurs when neutral laws have a disproportionate impact on members of enumerated or analogous groups."

So it doesn't matter if the math competency test is neutral or not. You might not agree with that, but that's how our law works.
Mëds wrote: Sun Jan 02, 2022 10:40 pm Could the issue actually be that a higher percentage of blacks and first nations are enrolling in university courses that focus on arts and literature whereas the enrollments in sciences see a higher percentage of whites and asian individuals?
Yes, this seems like a good point but in fact this is just another example of how Black and Indigenous students have been affected by past discrimination. As per the ruling, "black and Indigenous students tend to be overrepresented in less challenging, basic and general level courses, and under-represented in advanced courses."
Mëds wrote: Sun Jan 02, 2022 10:40 pm The rationale that the judge should use is that if individuals want to be teachers then they should be tested on the subjects they plan to teach.

In the case of primary education one teacher has to teach one class all of the subject material, in BC this was the case up to grade 7 when I was a kid. Therefore the test should assess the competence of the prospective teacher up to the grade 7 level. Also, it is not unreasonable to set the bar a mere one or two grade levels above what a person is expected to be able to teach.

Either way, take race out of the equation entirely.
This is already the case. In order to teach math beyond Grade 6 in Ontario, an additional certification (and presumably passing a test) is required.
You're out to lunch,
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Re: Kneecaps

Post by 5thhorseman »

Looks Iike no-one wants to discuss this shit anymore.

Topper makes a joke to escape the debate, as usual.

Mëds has nothing to say, so becomes dismissive.

You can all have your echo chamber back then.
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Re: Kneecaps

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Once 5th agreed with me that bias was bad, there was no debate to be had.
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Re: Kneecaps

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"Bias is bad." Another broad brush stroke from Topper.
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Re: Kneecaps

Post by Meds »

5thhorseman wrote: Tue Jan 04, 2022 11:51 pm Looks Iike no-one wants to discuss this shit anymore.

Topper makes a joke to escape the debate, as usual.

Mëds has nothing to say, so becomes dismissive.

You can all have your echo chamber back then.
There's nothing to discuss.

There is no reason that racialization has any bearing on college graduates being unable to pass a grade 9 level math test.

Remove the test because it has no bearing on the qualification of the individual applying for a teaching job (when math is not what they will be teaching). No need to scrutinize it based on race.
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Re: Kneecaps

Post by 2Fingers »

Mëds wrote: Fri Jan 07, 2022 11:46 am
5thhorseman wrote: Tue Jan 04, 2022 11:51 pm Looks Iike no-one wants to discuss this shit anymore.

Topper makes a joke to escape the debate, as usual.

Mëds has nothing to say, so becomes dismissive.

You can all have your echo chamber back then.
There's nothing to discuss.

There is no reason that racialization has any bearing on college graduates being unable to pass a grade 9 level math test.

Remove the test because it has no bearing on the qualification of the individual applying for a teaching job (when math is not what they will be teaching). No need to scrutinize it based on race.
The part that bothers me is that if you do not agree with some of these decisions you can be made out to be considered racist or something else. I am not involved enough to have a knowledgeable opinion but I hope there was a proper lens applied to the decisions vs. trying to stifle peoples opinions.
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Re: Kneecaps

Post by 5thhorseman »

2Fingers wrote: Fri Jan 07, 2022 12:02 pm
Mëds wrote: Fri Jan 07, 2022 11:46 am
5thhorseman wrote: Tue Jan 04, 2022 11:51 pm Looks Iike no-one wants to discuss this shit anymore.

Topper makes a joke to escape the debate, as usual.

Mëds has nothing to say, so becomes dismissive.

You can all have your echo chamber back then.
There's nothing to discuss.

There is no reason that racialization has any bearing on college graduates being unable to pass a grade 9 level math test.

Remove the test because it has no bearing on the qualification of the individual applying for a teaching job (when math is not what they will be teaching). No need to scrutinize it based on race.
The part that bothers me is that if you do not agree with some of these decisions you can be made out to be considered racist or something else. I am not involved enough to have a knowledgeable opinion but I hope there was a proper lens applied to the decisions vs. trying to stifle peoples opinions.
Fair enough Reef, but I don't think anyone here is accusing anyone else of being racist.

Anyone who is really interested in the reasoning behind this decision can read the court ruling here. It's not too hard to understand and you can skim some of it to get to the important parts. I wouldn't have commented on this issue without having at least understood the reasoning behind the court decision. Most people don't do that and that's a pity.

https://www.otffeo.on.ca/en/wp-content/ ... by-all.pdf
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