Kneecaps

[ukcanuck]

The in situ value of a deposit is $0.

This is a disingenuous statement. There is obvious value in any known deposit and your mining companies are pretty much all over it like Oprah on a baked ham.
If there was zero value we wouldn't have this conversation.

It only has value when it is extracted. Reserves go up and down with metal prices. The easiest way to increase the reserves of a deposit is to have the commodity price increase. The fastest way to close a mine is have commodity prices drop.

Interesting that you use the term reserve, as in we will reserve our option to set the perceived value on any given day depending on artificial constructs.

Obviously, the price one gets on market day fluctuates but the inherent value remains. So whether you sell it today, tomorrow, next week or next year it's never actually a loss.
Unless of course you count a profit you didn't make today as a loss...
But that is speculative at best and no one should have a guarantee of that.

What grade of a commodity is economic to mine? It depends on the commodity price. If you add a tax on the mine, you effectively lower the commodity price, you therefore lower the mine reserves.

More dishonest language, Barrett wasn't adding a tax at all, he was trying to stop mines from deferring the tax they already owed.

Are you entitled to defer your taxes until such time as it suits you to pay them?

You will also stifle exploration. Why try to find something if it immediately adds to your tax burden before it is in production.

Would you agree to a tax on your savings account?

Ahh but it's not your bank account is it? The deposit belongs to the people if BC. So it erroneous for mining companies to imply ownership at all.

Yes it is a gamble (in this day and age more like an educated guess) to go looking for new deposits but that's the gamble all business risk when they invest.
No one deserves a guarantee against losses. Especially when we are talking about extracting our descendant's inheritance.

Example, Galore Creek Deposit in north western BC, Teck and their partner were spending several hundred million a year doing engineering and environmental studies, detailed exploration, constructing road access to the site...... They flew in a 300+ man camp, they had the worlds largest heavy lift helicopter bringing in heavy equipment to the site.

All for the detailed work that would get the project into the mine development stage and mine permitting process.

Then Teck's economists downward adjusted their long term outlook on the prices of copper and gold.

The project, overnight, went into engineering care and maintenance with only exploration being carried out

Impressive on the surface but it amounts to more of the same argument. Teck having identified and placed the infrastructure to extract the resources present at galore creek are now sitting on it waiting to cash in as they see fit.
I'm sure that the value of the ore has been added to the value of the company and they sell shares and borrow and lend that value on a daily basis.

When the time comes they will cash in and they will have sold a line of bullshit that they shouldn't have to pay tax because "look the price of copper is only x per tonne.

On the streets that's call a shell game...

Another example, an exploration project I have been involved in for the past decade was optioned from us by a major international mining company. Metal prices at the time were escalating, every six months,we would get updated long term projected metal values from their economists to use in our in house reserve estimates and they were always increasing. Up until two years ago when commodity prices began to fall and few saw it coming. The project went from being one of BC largest exploration projects (~$7million/year budget, 20,000m drilling/yr over four years) to being completely shuttered as gold prices fell and the company began to loose money.

Wait, optioned from you?
Meaning another company purchased the theoretical value of the deposits in your mine?

Wouldn't that prove there is value on a deposit before it's extracted?

It does sound unfortunate for the major international mine that took a gamble but at the end of the day the deposits are still there and hey the house always wins right?

Seems to me that this major player hedges it's bets pretty good thanks to the work you were doing and it also seems as an international corporation they manage to mitigate their losses pretty well.

Another example, Highland Valley Copper - Canada's largest copper mine and one of the largest open pit operations in the world, south of Kamloops, just outside of Logan Lake. It was due to close in 2002 having exhausted it's ore. Further exploration, a better understanding of the geology and increased commodity prices (from the historic average of $0.90/lb Cu) have Teck still operating and projecting a 2020+ for end of mine life.

Highland valley is a great example of a steady operation that has been going on for years. A blue chip investment (no pun intended)

Whoever has owned that hole in the ground has made their money no question. But the province had to wait for it's money after a long line of investors and shareholders got theirs didn't it?

So tell me UK, what is the value of the deposit in the ground?

Like I said before it's a disingenuous question, the value is intrinsic otherwise no one would dig it up in the first place.

Tell me UK, would you put your money in a bank in a country that taxes your savings account?

Red Commie Dave was was killing investment in BC and jobs for British Columbians.

All banks charge fees on savings accounts and it's not your savings we are talking about. The metals in the ground belong to everyone.

Your last statement "commie" Dave is apropos,

Your arguments are old school bait and switch.
Derisive personal comments linked to Cold War propaganda.

Communism does not describe the political ground upon which unionist and social minded people stand.

Dave Barrett is no more a communist than Jimmy Pattison is a nazi.

Yet this is the first page in the right handed play book, divert attention to the irrelevant and hope everyone missed the obvious.

(Sadly it seems to work on Mëds)

[SKYO]

As for the nurses...

BC Nurses' Union pres. Gayle Duteil says union is giving teachers $500,000 to help them in their fight for quality public education #bced

AND

Local unions offer BCTF $8-million in interest free loans to continue teachers’ strike

http://www.vancitybuzz.com/2014/09/loca ... rs-strike/

[Topper]

LOL UK

You believe companies should be forced to operate at loss while being taxed on the gross value of their loss making operations.

Is this why Commie Red Dave bought Ocean Falls? Panco Poultry? Swan Lake Potatoe Chips?

Did you know that ore is an economic term for rock that can be extracted at a profit?

Did you know that a reserve is defined not just in terms of grade and tonnage but also by a cutoff grade? That the cutoff grade is defined by commodity price, mining and engineering costs, social economic cost, and taxation costs?

Do you know the difference between mineral title and a mining lease?

Do you know the difference between inferred, indicated and measured?

Do you know that the grade varies within a deposit?

Do you understand anything of the time value of money?

[Topper]

Teachers voting on conditional binding arbitration while refusing to sit down at the bargaining table is an acknowledgement of their refusal to bargain in good faith.

[Topper]

As for the nurses...

BC Nurses' Union pres. Gayle Duteil says union is giving teachers $500,000 to help them in their fight for quality public education #bced

AND

Local unions offer BCTF $8-million in interest free loans to continue teachers’ strike

http://www.vancitybuzz.com/2014/09/loca ... rs-strike/

Is it any surprise that the nurses are up next to the bargaining table

[Strangelove]

My sister the special needs TA is getting $70/day to picket for two hours with the teachers. $35/hr??????? WTF

She's not BCTF, she's CUPE.

So that $70 per day is coming from CUPE... who are not on strike right?

That's A LOT of money for a union to cough up in this day & age!

(CUPE would probably be obliged to give her that money whether she joined BCTF on the picket line or not btw)

I'm wondering why BCTF doesn't make an agreement with CUPE for the support staff (TAs, bus-drivers, etc)

... to cross the lines so that they can twiddle their thumbs with the right to be paid by the School Board.

It would save CUPE $70/day/per and cost the Management Side in this dispute some pretty big bucks.

Okay, now I'm wondering if some backroom deal was cut between Management/Government and CUPE.

Yeah, I'm wondering if Management/Government is somehow kicking in a large chunk of that $70 per day.

[ukcanuck]

LOL UK

You believe companies should be forced to operate at loss while being taxed on the gross value of their loss making operations.

Nice twist of my words, I've noticed you do that a lot.
I believe that taxes are due on profits.
I believe that when a company secures the mineral rights whether by lease or title or claim they have obtained an inherent value that is a tradable commodity.

I think your painted losses are much the same as banks buying and selling debt amongst each other

I believe that you believe if you made ten million dollars but could have made twelve million, you actually lost two million.

I believe you try to sell that as a loss and expect a tax credit and a pat on the back for creating jobs.

Is this why Commie Red Dave bought Ocean Falls? Panco Poultry? Swan Lake Potatoe Chips?

Did you know that ore is an economic term for rock that can be extracted at a profit?

Did you know that a reserve is defined not just in terms of grade and tonnage but also by a cutoff grade? That the cutoff grade is defined by commodity price, mining and engineering costs, social economic cost, and taxation costs?

Do you know the difference between mineral title and a mining lease?

Do you know the difference between inferred, indicated and measured?

Do you know that the grade varies within a deposit?

Do you understand anything of the time value of money?

Are you demonstrating your expertise of mining terms to prove that I should buy your arguments?

The point was already made that mining is speculative. I'm fairly confident that Scrooge McDuck has a complex way of counting his pennies.

How much does it cost to get out of the ground versus how much does it return on the market. Many factors indeed.

Except we aren't talking about the tax a mining company should pay for what it physically produces. We are talking about why should a mine get to defer tax on the profit they make off of what amounts to the people's savings account..


I believe that's the question Dave Barrett wanted to know and I believe that's why you call him a communist.
Of course you would it's your bread and butter

[Topper]

UK, I'm glad you admit you have no comprehension of what you are talking about.

I counted three direst contradictions in your posts, carry on teaching your little beheaders.

[isle_nuck]

Jesus christo folks, read to your kids. If you don't have time to read to your kids, life is wrong.

This! So much this! Of all the things wrong with education in this province, this is the biggest problem - and it's free to fix!

So that $70 per day is coming from CUPE... who are not on strike right?

That's A LOT of money for a union to cough up in this day & age!

(CUPE would probably be obliged to give her that money whether she joined BCTF on the picket line or not btw)

I'm wondering why BCTF doesn't make an agreement with CUPE for the support staff (TAs, bus-drivers, etc)

... to cross the lines so that they can twiddle their thumbs with the right to be paid by the School Board.

It would save CUPE $70/day/per and cost the Management Side in this dispute some pretty big bucks.

Okay, now I'm wondering if some backroom deal was cut between Management/Government and CUPE.

Yeah, I'm wondering if Management/Government is somehow kicking in a large chunk of that $70 per day.

Apparently, and this is a combination of rumour, potentially half-truths and stuff heard from this guy who heard from this guy....anyway, it seems CUPE has settled their contract back in June. It was an attempt by the government to undercut the TF. Part of the deal was that CUPE got paid through the duration of strike. Word from the line, no one knows if they are getting paid during the actual strike, or will get a lump sum afterwards, but word is they're getting paid at some point; I would imagine some locals are different than others. In the district I am in, during a public board meeting, one of the local trustees said that agreeing to that deal was one of the worst decisions they could have potentially made because of all the money they will be paying out while staff are sitting at home or the beach.

A true story that makes the above seem all the more truthful? The community I'm picketing in has three schools and for some reason, there's no one picketing one of the sites. Yesterday when I was on the line, a CUPE member drove past the site we were at and asked if anyone was at the usually empty site and if anyone was supposed to be there. His shift was supposed to start in two hours and if there was no picket, he was supposed to work. However, if there was a picket when he showed up for his shift he would have to go home and still get paid. Yesterday he didn't ask if we could spare a few members to go set up a temporary picket (although you could tell he was hinting at it), but apparently he had asked last week if teachers could go down.

[ukcanuck]

UK, I'm glad you admit you have no comprehension of what you are talking about.

I counted three direst contradictions in your posts, carry on teaching your little beheaders.

Why do you insist on such weak tactics?

You pull this same crap every time.

It seems you are incapable of the basic nicety of a considerate debate.

No wonder though if we are starting with the premise that we should kneecapped, it's a great indicator of your gangster mentality

Instead of waiving vague accusations bring these contradictions

I'm not afraid of being wrong

I'm sure you're not worried about hurting my feelings .

I think you're full of yourself and are more concerned about what you look like than the truth

[ukcanuck]

Isle nuck tell me you don't believe that ADD and ADHD are caused by parents not reading to their kids or feeding them to much junk food!??

That's what some folk around here believe

Colour me Face palmed ...

[isle_nuck]

Isle nuck tell me you don't believe that ADD and ADHD are caused by parents not reading to their kids or feeding them to much junk food!??

That's what some folk around here believe

Colour me Face palmed ...

No I don't think that those are the causes of those or other conditions. I think that as research and knowledge of ADD, ADHD, autism and everything else has gotten more extensive and more well known, there have been an increase in proper diagnosis (the majority of cases). However, I also feel that with those proper diagnosis there have been an in crease in incorrect diagnosis (the minority) that are caused by doctors either a) not knowing exactly what they're dealing with so they give the kid a diagnosis du jour or b) caving to parents who have fucked up in the raising of their children and now "something must be wrong with Billy" their doctor to death and he gives them what they want so they stop wasting his time.

I was referring to the idea of parents reading to their kids creating more engaged and knowledgeable students for you and I. Say all parents read to their kids, when those kids get to kindergarten, the K teacher doesn't have to spend two weeks on learning how to write their name for example. This would create a scenario that by the time they got to high school maybe the kids are a grade or two further ahead than they would be otherwise. Yes, it's a Utopian dream, but sometimes it's all a guy has!

In a less dream like state, kids who are read to at young ages are usually going to be more curious leading to full and well-rounded discussions in class. Also, those parents who read are going to have a greater stake in the education of their child and will actually answer the phone when we call home. As you know the job million times easier when parents and teachers are on the same page.

[Topper]

I also feel that with those proper diagnosis there have been an in crease in incorrect diagnosis (the minority) that are caused by doctors either a) not knowing exactly what they're dealing with so they give the kid a diagnosis du jour or b) caving to parents who have fucked up in the raising of their children and now "something must be wrong with Billy" their doctor to death and he gives them what they want so they stop wasting his time.

Ding, Ding, Ding

I was referring to the idea of parents reading to their kids creating more engaged and knowledgeable students for you and I. Say all parents read to their kids, when those kids get to kindergarten, the K teacher doesn't have to spend two weeks on learning how to write their name for example. This would create a scenario that by the time they got to high school maybe the kids are a grade or two further ahead than they would be otherwise. Yes, it's a Utopian dream, but sometimes it's all a guy has!

In a less dream like state, kids who are read to at young ages are usually going to be more curious leading to full and well-rounded discussions in class. Also, those parents who read are going to have a greater stake in the education of their child and will actually answer the phone when we call home. As you know the job million times easier when parents and teachers are on the same page.

It is also some one on one time with the kid where we don't just read, we talk to one another, I find out how he is doing, he knows I care.

The other very simple act we do is sit at the table and eat dinner as a family.

[BurningBeard]

The other very simple act we do is sit at the table and eat dinner as a family.

During which, the TV is only allowed to be on if the Nucks are playing at my house.

[Topper]

For a start UK

I believe that taxes are due on profits.

The point was already made that mining is speculative.

They know the total worth of the ore in that mine and they can calculate world prices

How so, as you say, mining is speculative, as as you also note in the quote below, prices fluctuate. I would also add that labour, energy and taxation costs also fluctuate. You only need to look at mines that were profitable several years ago at $500/oz Au but are uneconomic now at $1200/oz Au.

Obviously, the price one gets on market day fluctuates but the inherent value remains. So whether you sell it today, tomorrow, next week or next year it's never actually a loss.
Unless of course you count a profit you didn't make today as a loss...

If the price fluctuates, how does the inherent value remain? Would it not fluctuate also? What happens when that value drops below mining, exploration and permitting costs.

Oh that's right, it cost money to explore and permit a mine. Do not forget the success rate of an exploration project becoming a mine? Upwards of $1- $2 billion for a porphyry copper mine these days. No revenue is received from that project during exploration and permitting. Remember you did say it is a speculative business.

I believe that when a company secures the mineral rights whether by lease or title or claim they have obtained an inherent value that is a tradable commodity.

and therefore have the right to claim exploration costs against that value. If it is an active mine then they can also claim their operational costs against their profits.

You have lost the track of you speculative belief here. The company or individual prospector is assuming all the risk, not the public.

Except we aren't talking about the tax a mining company should pay for what it physically produces. We are talking about why should a mine get to defer tax on the profit they make off of what amounts to the people's savings account.

How are they deferring profit on something that has yet to be extracted at unknown costs and an unknown sale price? You have acknowledged the speculative nature of the business and have acknowledged prices fluctuate, also you have acknowledged that taxes should be paid on profits.

Should governments be required to refund tax revenues on forward paid taxes of the in situ value when operational costs increase or commodity prices decrease?

As for the teachers, since their binding arbitration vote was an overwhelming success, I hear they will vote next week on holding negotiations on Mars, but only conditional on the government dropping E.