GDT: Mar 7 - Habs @ Nucks 7 pm SN

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Re: GDT: Mar 7 - Habs @ Nucks 7 pm SN

Post by micky107 » Wed Mar 08, 2017 12:21 am

I was a little :shock: ed, that Danny wasn't pulled into the room for "protocol" with about 4 minutes left in the 3rd.
He looked to be in never, never land, no?
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Re: GDT: Mar 7 - Habs @ Nucks 7 pm SN

Post by Topper » Wed Mar 08, 2017 6:14 am

A few comments;

Pass, three touches to control pass, shooting lane blocked, pass, three touches to control pass, shooting lane blocked, pass, three touches to control pass, shooting lane blocked, pass, three touches to control pass, shooting lane blocked, pass, three touches to control pass, shooting lane blocked, pass, three touches to control pass, shooting lane blocked, pass, three touches to control pass, shooting lane blocked, pass, three touches to control pass, shooting lane blocked, pass, three touches to control pass, shooting lane blocked, pass, three touches to control pass, shooting lane blocked, pass, three touches to control pass, shooting lane blocked, pass, three touches to control pass, shooting lane blocked, pass, three touches to control pass, shooting lane blocked, pass, three touches to control pass, shooting lane blocked, pass, three touches to control pass, shooting lane blocked, pass, three touches to control pass, shooting lane blocked, pass, three touches to control pass, shooting lane blocked, pass, three touches to control pass, shooting lane blocked, pass, three touches to control pass, shooting lane blocked, pass, three touches to control pass, shooting lane blocked, pass, three touches to control pass, shooting lane blocked, pass, three touches to control pass......

Edler's delay of game was all on the little trojan pouching Edler's outlet options. Even got him a talking to after his shift. The runt is out of excuses for his awful play.
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Re: GDT: Mar 7 - Habs @ Nucks 7 pm SN

Post by Meds » Wed Mar 08, 2017 10:37 am

Topper wrote:A few comments;

Pass, three touches to control pass, shooting lane blocked, pass, three touches to control pass, shooting lane blocked, pass, three touches to control pass, shooting lane blocked, pass, three touches to control pass, shooting lane blocked, pass, three touches to control pass, shooting lane blocked, pass, three touches to control pass, shooting lane blocked, pass, three touches to control pass, shooting lane blocked, pass, three touches to control pass, shooting lane blocked, pass, three touches to control pass, shooting lane blocked, pass, three touches to control pass, shooting lane blocked, pass, three touches to control pass, shooting lane blocked, pass, three touches to control pass, shooting lane blocked, pass, three touches to control pass, shooting lane blocked, pass, three touches to control pass, shooting lane blocked, pass, three touches to control pass, shooting lane blocked, pass, three touches to control pass, shooting lane blocked, pass, three touches to control pass, shooting lane blocked, pass, three touches to control pass, shooting lane blocked, pass, three touches to control pass, shooting lane blocked, pass, three touches to control pass, shooting lane blocked, pass, three touches to control pass, shooting lane blocked, pass, three touches to control pass......

Edler's delay of game was all on the little trojan pouching Edler's outlet options. Even got him a talking to after his shift. The runt is out of excuses for his awful play.
Edler is always pass, 3 touches to control pass, shooting lane blocked. Even when it's a perfect pass he double clutches and over thinks it.....lane blocked.

The case you are specifically mentioning is a load of horseshit though. Edler has the puck behind the net, lots of time and Stecher is open on the near boards for a pass. Edler doesn't like it and hangs on. Stecher then goes across the slot and around behind the net as Edler breaks up on the right-side (Edler's weak side recall). Stecher is calling for a reverse pass open behind the net, which Edler could have made. He declined.

You have stuck your neck out on Stecher and deemed him no good so now you are digging deep to find ways to discredit his game. Who knows what Lidster was saying on the bench to Stecher afterwards, but Edler was stupid to force that play.....it's what Edler does though, he handles the puck like it's a grenade, always has. Knowing this team they were giving Stecher shit just for being on the ice when Edler made a bad play.

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Re: GDT: Mar 7 - Habs @ Nucks 7 pm SN

Post by Doyle Hargraves » Wed Mar 08, 2017 11:30 am

Stetcher is a first year pro. Imagine when he turns 27 and gets 448 NHL games under his belt and commands an annual salary of 3.6 million a season.
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Re: GDT: Mar 7 - Habs @ Nucks 7 pm SN

Post by Hockey Widow » Wed Mar 08, 2017 11:38 am

I like Stetcher. Sure he has had his share of rookie mistakes and some growing pains but the good far out weighs the bad here. I don't get all the doom and gloom about him Tops.

The guy makes some very solid D plays, his positioning is improving, he never quits on a play, he is aggressive offensively. He's learning better board play, starting to block shots more regularly. Great passer. Solid on the point guy.

Ya he's "tiny" and can get pushed off the puck very easily. Ya he's taken some hard hits. Mistakes, ya they are there. Growing pains, yep that too. Strength, yep, he could help himself there in the off season. Could he have used a season in Utica? Probably but for the most part he hasn't looked out of place.
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Re: GDT: Mar 7 - Habs @ Nucks 7 pm SN

Post by Hockey Widow » Wed Mar 08, 2017 11:40 am

Blob Mckenzie wrote:Stetcher is a first year pro. Imagine when he turns 27 and gets 448 NHL games under his belt and commands an annual salary of 3.6 million a season.
Are you saying that's a good thing or a bad thing?
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Re: GDT: Mar 7 - Habs @ Nucks 7 pm SN

Post by micky107 » Wed Mar 08, 2017 11:57 am

Troy and Alex are just trying to maximize their effectiveness. Troy is short but not light, he's starting to throw a few hits, saw a good hipper last night. He is an extremely creative player with a quick eye. He has managed to avoid, or side step, the real big hits. When he does lose the puck or make a mistake, he quite often is fast to rectify it.
It seems to me Alex and he are having constructive conversations on the bench to help each other, and I see nothing to indicate a problem.
Hell, I remember, even when they were in their prime, Hank and Danny having some pretty good debates on the bench between shifts.
I think this is all a good thing.
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Re: GDT: Mar 7 - Habs @ Nucks 7 pm SN

Post by Doyle Hargraves » Wed Mar 08, 2017 12:26 pm

Hockey Widow wrote:
Blob Mckenzie wrote:Stetcher is a first year pro. Imagine when he turns 27 and gets 448 NHL games under his belt and commands an annual salary of 3.6 million a season.
Are you saying that's a good thing or a bad thing?
I'm saying a certain player with those numbers finally became a serviceable bottom pairing NHL defenceman. It takes time ;some longer than others.
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Re: GDT: Mar 7 - Habs @ Nucks 7 pm SN

Post by Topper » Wed Mar 08, 2017 12:55 pm

The little trojan is the defense equivalent of McCann. Started the season with a bit of promise and has faded ever since. He is a horrible risk taker on offense. His shot has disappeared and now rarely makes it through traffic. He routinely bails on his partner. He can't handle himself in the defensive zone making play when he's on the ice look like an opposition powerplay. Slot, crease and boards in defensive zone are his enemy. His shots on goal stats have plummeted from 37 in 11 games in October to 9 in 11 games in February.

The play last night on Edler delay of game penalty is all to common. Instead of creating space and opportunity for Edler he chose to close on Edler, bringing even more defenders towards him cutting off even more outlets. He effectively too away half the ice for Edler to play the puck to. Instead of helping his partner, he acted like a forechecker.

People complain about Edler but fail to look at how he's being strangled by his partner.
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Re: GDT: Mar 7 - Habs @ Nucks 7 pm SN

Post by Meds » Wed Mar 08, 2017 1:21 pm

micky107 wrote:Troy and Alex are just trying to maximize their effectiveness. Troy is short but not light, he's starting to throw a few hits, saw a good hipper last night. He is an extremely creative player with a quick eye. He has managed to avoid, or side step, the real big hits. When he does lose the puck or make a mistake, he quite often is fast to rectify it.
It seems to me Alex and he are having constructive conversations on the bench to help each other, and I see nothing to indicate a problem.
Hell, I remember, even when they were in their prime, Hank and Danny having some pretty good debates on the bench between shifts.
I think this is all a good thing.
Edler' has a few problems, the first is that he tries to do too much, the second is related to the first in that he isn't mentally quick enough to make the right read when he's trying to accomplish the former. His other, and biggest, problem is out of his hands, and it is that management and coaching are selling him as something he is not. Edler should not be trying to skate the puck out under pressure, and yet he often does, and he has never been reigned in. He has never been a good PPQB, he has never been a more than average at handling the puck under pressure, and he has never been an accurate shooter.....but the Canucks seem to think he is all of those things.

Edler was a very effective defenseman in 2010-11 when he had Ehrhoff dealing with the offensive side of the game and he was able to be a secondary contributor offensively while focusing on playing a harder defensive game.

Stecher is a way better skater and has far better puck control, he's quicker to read the play but some of his decision making lacks experience as is usually the case with a first year pro. Regardless, we aren't trying to win the Cup this year, we are building for the future, so let the kid make his mistakes and learn from them.
Topper wrote: I like Stetcher. Sure he has had his share of rookie mistakes and some growing pains but the good far out weighs the bad here. I don't get all the doom and gloom about him Tops.
In Stecher's 7th game, against Dallas, he made a very risky pinch at the blueline that resulted in a game tying goal with 1:20 left in regulation. The Canucks then won the game in OT. Topper wasn't a fan and has been much more vocal about Stecher's play since.

http://www.canuckscorner.com/forums/vie ... 08#p269508

Stecher didn't have another play. Burrows was under pressure after a loose puck and just threw it back to the point. Stecher did a great job to prevent the puck from leaving the zone and by the time it was on his stick a cross-ice pass to Edler would have been a terrible decision because Benn (who I noted at the time is not renowned for his defensive game) was right there with his stick heading into that lane. One of the Sedins had just come off the bench and was coming into the zone, but he was behind Stecher and came into the zone just a few feet away, so not an option.

Stecher made the right decision in that moment and it paid off.....it was definitely a risk, but anyone who has watched hockey with any kind of objectivity knows that those are the plays that make hockey exciting and change games (one way or the other). If Keith, Doughty, Karlsson, or Shattenkirk, make that same play Topper would have praised their skill and ability to make that read. For whatever reason he's not a fan of seeing our kids do similar things in a year where nobody expects us to win anyhow.

It's puzzling, Stecher clearly is one of, if not the, most offensively skilled defensemen we've had since Ehrhoff left. He brings an element to the ice that we have been screaming for for years.....but he's a bit smaller than the ideal NHL defenseman. That has been one of the main gripes from Topper, his size. The kid has steadily improved, and he's made fewer mistakes than Hutton and Gudbranson this year. But Topper can't get by his high risk/reward plays and his small stature.....the puzzling thing is that Topper absolutely WORSHIPPED Mason Raymond. Raymond was one of the most gutless top-6 wingers we've seen here. He never went to the net after rebounds, he would blast up the boards and instead of driving the net with the extra step-and-a-half he had on most defensemen he would button hook at the hashmarks and then dump the puck around the boards. But was soft as butter in the sun, but he never took a risk.....and Tops loved it. Where Raymond is today says a lot to me about that risk/reward thinking when it comes to less physical players.

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Re: GDT: Mar 7 - Habs @ Nucks 7 pm SN

Post by UWSaint » Wed Mar 08, 2017 2:21 pm

Meds wrote:Edler' has a few problems, the first is that he tries to do too much, the second is related to the first in that he isn't mentally quick enough to make the right read when he's trying to accomplish the former. His other, and biggest, problem is out of his hands, and it is that management and coaching are selling him as something he is not. Edler should not be trying to skate the puck out under pressure, and yet he often does, and he has never been reigned in. ...

....Regardless, we aren't trying to win the Cup this year, we are building for the future, so let the kid make his mistakes and learn from them.... The kid has steadily improved, and he's made fewer mistakes than Hutton and Gudbranson this year....

....But Topper can't get by his high risk/reward plays and his small stature.....the puzzling thing is that Topper absolutely WORSHIPPED Mason Raymond. Raymond was one of the most gutless top-6 wingers we've seen here.
As for Edler skating it out too much, note that Topper's criticism of Stetcher last night is that Stetcher's positioning is taking options away from Edler. If you don't have a pass that will improve the situation, what do you do? I agree with Topper that there are times when he looks like he is a squirt. Not size-wise (thought I am sure Topper means that too...), but awareness-wise. Stetcher needs to think the game better, particularly in the defensive zone without the puck. That, combined with a need to improve positioning in one on one battles (and to sharpen his skates....) is what makes Stetcher a huge question mark. I love the kid's competitiveness and I think he is a plus player with the puck. But there is so much to work on.

I don't think Stetcher has "steadily improved" this season. Far from it; I think he has regressed in both the mental errors and physical errors department. There are times where this has made him more cautious, which isn't exactly the right response. His errors are not (usually) risk/reward errors. They are fundamentals errors. On the risk/reward, I'm with you. Stetcher can pull it off from time to time, has a burst in him, and has pretty good hands.

I also think that it is better to have Stetcher up here making mistakes and learning from them than in Utica. The fact is, there isn't a clearly better option in the top 6 and Stetcher is likely going to learn as much here. I've commented before that I think that Stetcher's skill and competitiveness means that he won't get burned as much in the AHL with his shortcomings; he needs to get burned to get better. Whether he can get better is quite an unknown; I'm not as cold on the prospect as Topper, but Topper's criticisms are not based on an irrational dislike for the kid. His play is terribly weak in important areas. I'm a little more optimistic, but the chances of a flame out are as realistic as predictions of a solid top 4 for years to come.

As for Mason Raymond, the guy was extremely valuable to the Canucks in the couple seasons before Boychuck broke his neck. Whether or not he was soft as butter, he was an effective player on offense (he potted 28 one season), in the neutral zone (he created a fair number of turnovers; took away passing lanes), and even on defense (where he was quick, learned to be positionally solid, and rarely made unforced errors). The eyes told you that and the advanced stats told you that.

Almost all players have deficits. Some can't put the puck in the net by winning traffic battles. Some can't keep the puck out the the net by physically neutralizing an opponent; some can't separate a player from the puck with a check. These are all very visible things; what is less visible is all of the things players do so that they don't have to separate a player from the puck (because they have the puck!), are draw out a defenseman so there is an odd man situation down low, etc. The goal is to score more goals than the other team; the most sure way to do this is by creating more opportunities than the other team. The job of an individual player is to work with his linemates to accomplish this goal the best way they can as a group. For a couple of years, Mason Raymond was really good at this.

In other news, I hear Wayne Gretzky was soft as butter.

(No, I am not comparing Raymond to Gretzky.....)
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Re: GDT: Mar 7 - Habs @ Nucks 7 pm SN

Post by micky107 » Wed Mar 08, 2017 2:42 pm

You must have your player numbers wrong.. LOL
Or maybe yours is the "20" year plan...
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Re: GDT: Mar 7 - Habs @ Nucks 7 pm SN

Post by Meds » Wed Mar 08, 2017 3:14 pm

UWSaint wrote: In other news, I hear Wayne Gretzky was soft as butter.

(No, I am not comparing Raymond to Gretzky.....)
Kane and Gaudreau are pretty soft too.....the difference is that they have a skill level that Raymond never came close to approaching.

If Raymond was on the Canucks team, and had the same advanced stats now that he did then, he would be next to useless. Raymond, as you pointed out, had one great season (for a 2nd line winger) with 28 goals. Aside from that season's point production, Raymond's advanced stats were the only thing people could use in his favour. More often than not our rush died on his stick. But that wasn't my point in bringing him up. My point was, in response to Wids question regarding Stecher hate from Topper, that Topper hates on players who make mistakes, even when the mistakes are nothing more than risks taken that turn out for the best.

My comment regarding Stecher on the Edler play was that Stecher (while away from the puck) actually DID give Edler TWO options.....Edler ignored them both and fucked things up all by himself. It's not the only time there is a comment regarding Edler's play that gets dumped at Stecher's feet, but Special Ed was making these same mistakes long before Stecher rolled into town, and with various other partners.

I don't see Stecher making any more mistakes than he initially did that cannot be attributed to increased ice-time and responsibility, and tougher match-ups. I fully agree that the kid is in over his head, but that is the result of injuries to our blueline forcing him into the deep end sooner than is ideal. All things considered he has been a bright spot on our blueline's future this season.

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Re: GDT: Mar 7 - Habs @ Nucks 7 pm SN

Post by Topper » Wed Mar 08, 2017 3:28 pm

The same thing that separates Mason Raymond from being loved by Canuck fans is the same thing that separates Meds from the human race.

A foot and a half of height.

Raymond was a PK and PP unit fixture on a Presidents Trophy winning team and Stanley Cup Finalist. A team that lead the League in PP% and was 3rd in PK%. A team that lead the league in goals for and won the Jennings Trophy.

He used speed on the breakout to break opponents trap and often draw penalties. No he didn't develop into the 1st line player that he speed hinted at, instead he was very responsible top nine forward that could be called upon to move up and down the lineup as injuries dictated.

With #88 set to return and Guds back skating......the little Trojan's days are numbered.
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Re: GDT: Mar 7 - Habs @ Nucks 7 pm SN

Post by Hockey Widow » Wed Mar 08, 2017 8:29 pm

I assume UW that when you say there isn't a better option in the top six that Stetcher you mean as long as Gudbranson is out.

I'm not smitten with Stetcher as some but I do see his upside. The problem to me is he should not be top four. He should be sheltered more in the bottom pairing with a role on the number one PP unit. I think he has the potential down the road to be an outstanding PP quarterback. And maybe he can learn a thing or two from Biega right now.
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