Canucks Bottom 6: Grit at the expense of scoring........

[Farhan Lalji]

Canucks Bottom 6: Grit at the expense of scoring........

What are your thoughts about the Bottom 6 of the Canucks'?........and what you want it to look like next season?

Personally - I'm not sure if I want to see ANY of the following players on our bottom 6:

-Raymond
-Higgins
-Samuelson
-Sturm
-Hodgson (possibly).

Now obviously - H. Sedin, D. Sedin, Kesler, and Burrows are locks for our top 6.

So - that leaves 2 of the above 4/5 to fill those spots. Since Raymond will be out initially, it's actually 2 of 4.

My current line of thinking is this: Fuck bottom 6 scoring. Lapierre, Malhottra, and Hansen are good enough. The other three guys that make the bottom 6 should be bruisers and crashers that can chip the occassional goal.

I think we are on the right track with Bitz, Winchester, Duco, and Oreschovich (all competing for spots). I would even go as far as attempting to move Hansen UP to the Kesler line so that all four of Bitz, Winchester, Duco, and Oreschovich can crack the line-up. The Canucks then package 2 of (Raymond, Samuelson, Higgins, Sturm, Hodgson, etc.) for one legit top 6 guy.

End result: We "front load" our top 6. Our bottom 6 may not have as much scoring potential, but can still produce......and more importantly, they are stacked with mean mother fuckers.

[rats19]

Theory sounds good.....but then you start overplaying top six on special teams.. i dont think uou want more than 2 maybe 3 of the bottom six that cant be moved up or play special teams.

Just re read your query...looks like i agree.

[Maxwell Edison]

I don't know if I agree with your assessment, I think that the Canucks do have some good players who can slot in on the third line and who can put the puck in the net - if Sturm is able to stay healthy he can score goals and play a decent two-way game (if he can stay healthy is the big question). There is something to say for the big body who can create room but some of the best two way players are great not because of their size but rather their positional play. Not saying that the Canucks should go small - as they do need some bigger, sturdier players - but I don't think that they can forgo team scoring with all four lines contributing.

[RespectYourEdlers]

I'd rather Mason Raymond in our bottom 6 then top 6. He's a better player in the bottom 6, playing on the 3rd line IMO because he can out speed plenty of other 3rd liners in the league. Higgins the same case, but more offensive upside, and is a typical 3rd line player because he grinds it out down low, and wins battles.

Also, if you think two of Sturm, Samuelsson, Hodgson, Raymond, Higgins can fetch a top 6 forward alone, I'm going to say, you've got to be kidding me. They'd be asking for our 1st round pick, and hell maybe even Schneider if they need a solid future goalie.

Sedin - Sedin - Burrows
Higgins - Kesler - Samuelsson
Raymond - Malhotra - Hansen
Winchester - Lapierre - Oreskovich
Duco, Bitz

Healthy lineup, considering Winchester signs of course. Plus Hansen and Samuelsson can be switched, but I'd really like to see Hansen with Kesler for a bit. I think Sammy looks a bit out of place if he's not able to keep up with Kesler this year, hopefully he can just find a sweet spot and use his shot effectively.

[Fred]

Theory sounds good.....but then you start overplaying top six on special teams.. i dont think uou want more than 2 maybe 3 of the bottom six that cant be moved up or play special teams.

Just re read your query...looks like i agree.

I new I'd find some thing to agree with Farhan eventually The 1st line is going to get say 22 minutes a game allowing for PP and the 2nd line is going to get approx the same so that's 44 minutes spoken for, now we think the 4th line will average 5 minutes may be 6 a game. That leaves 10 minutes for the 3rd line which is a little low IMO so do you increase the 3rd line time and where does it come from...well I'm thinking a couple of minutes from the 4th line. Which means there ice time should be insignificant so as to make an impact on the score line.....so what are you asking of them, don't get scored on and make a physical impact and answer the bell give some energy to the game and to a degree intimidate a bit.

The 4th line should have a diet of raw steak and let them loose when you believe the other team needs pushing around and change the momentum

[ESQ]

I disagree with this premise. I think the Canucks strength is scoring depth. The fact is, every player goes through cycles of productivity throughout the season. The reason the Canucks put up the best record last year is that you could almost always count on one of the top 3 lines to be hot and probably win you games. Plus, being a west-coast team, you have to expect going through periods (like in the playoffs) where 2-3 of your top 6 are out with injury, and having a third line that's basically composed of second liners lets you carry right along.

Ultimately, having a bottom 6 that is geared towards offense gives you more flexibility to win games - that is the Detroit philosophy and MG has been quite clear that that is his blueprint. Ultimately, third line scoring will win you more games than third line toughness, in my opinion.

Also keep in mind that Sammy should be much improved this year. The very occasional report would say he was so stiff that he could barely walk around the dressing room, and that was going back to December. In spite of such catastrophically bad health, he still put up a very respectable 50 points in 74 games. I definitely have him pencilled in the top 6, not bottom 6.

I'd rather Mason Raymond in our bottom 6 then top 6. He's a better player in the bottom 6, playing on the 3rd line IMO because he can out speed plenty of other 3rd liners in the league.

That is something I've never thought of. I used to think Raymond had potential to be a 70 point first-liner, but I haven't seen the improvement I expected, and I am extremely worried about his back injury. He's the one forward I can't figure out where he fits in, even if he returns in November (which I doubt). He may get back on the track, but we'll have to wait until he's healthy to find out.

[Tciso]

The 4th line should have a diet of raw steak and let them loose when you believe the other team needs pushing around and change the momentum

The problem with playing the 4th line just 5 minutes a night is that they are the ones who should be getting banged up, but instead, our top 2 lines are getting tired, and banged up instead. I'd like us to have a 4th line that can play physical, and be defensively responsible, and occasionally, fight and goon it up, all in 10 minutes. Imo, we played our top 2 lines way too much the past few seasons, and part of our injury problem is because of it. I'd love to see our 4 lines play about 20, 18, 12 and 10 minutes a night respectively.

We used to talk about the need for a "nothing happens" line on alt.hockey...vanc-canucks that would play about 10-12 minutes a night, and ideally, score around 8 goals a season, and be +4 (that's scoring a goal every 10 games, but only letting one in every 20). That's the line that closes out the game where we are up a goal and plays the next shift after we give up a momentum shifting goal, like we did about 10 times during the playoffs.

[Fred]

Here's the problem in todays game IMO. The 4th line is the dregs of a Cap system. Top lines are paid that much that what you're left with is financial scraps to put together a 4th line. Prior to the Cap system with enough money you could have a skilled line taking 10 minutes a game. I don't think that works today. Players like Lapierre and Glass and VO are paid at a low pay scale and frankly really that's all they're worth. Who ever takes their spot this season will be paid the same and bring the same skill set. I've never checked to see what other teams salary is for the 4th line and what production they get but I'm thinking it's similar. The Canucks have half their Cap tied up in HS+DS+RK+DH+KB+RL = $31.6 Add in $7.5 for KB + AE which leaves $24 million for the other 17 players. As Tony Soprano said What you going to do there likely about $2+ mill to cover the 4th line with

[Tciso]

I'm not sure about MayRay at all. If he's back for training camp, then I'll feel a lot better. But, if he's not back til November, and not back in game shape til after the All-Star game, then, on the up-side, we'll get him a lot cheaper on his next contract.

[ClamRussel]

The projections were Nov at the earliest. Expect him back in the new year...hopefully he has his legs by playoffs.

[RespectYourEdlers]

That is something I've never thought of. I used to think Raymond had potential to be a 70 point first-liner, but I haven't seen the improvement I expected, and I am extremely worried about his back injury. He's the one forward I can't figure out where he fits in, even if he returns in November (which I doubt). He may get back on the track, but we'll have to wait until he's healthy to find out.

I think he's a better fit there TBH. More speed, possibly better finish, and he can make better decisions with lesser talents playing against him night and night out. Adds some scoring depth on that 3rd line as well, and if Hansen stays on the 3rd line, imagine a Raymond-Hansen forecheck.

[jackalman]

[quote="ESQ"]Plus, being a west-coast team, you have to expect going through periods (like in the playoffs) where 2-3 of your top 6 are out with injury,


Are you saying there is a correlation between living playing on the west coast and being injured?

[Fred]

imagine a Raymond-Hansen forecheck.

Imagine Raymond actually finishing his check But I understand what you say with that speed

[rats19]

Plus, being a west-coast team, you have to expect going through periods (like in the playoffs) where 2-3 of your top 6 are out with injury,


Are you saying there is a correlation between living playing on the west coast and being injured?

I think he just means tougher style of hockey..for the most part

[Fred]

Jeff Mareks first of a new column at Sportsnet

-- The Brad Marchand contract negotiations are an interesting one to keep an eye on, for certain. How much is he worth? At the start of last season he was considered by most a longshot to make the Bruins but by the end of the year was a top contributor, won the team's seventh player award (voted on by the fans) and packed an offensive punch in the playoffs, which was crucial to the Bruins' Cup win.

His 11 goals were huge and even moreover from a perception point of view, the bizarre scene of him treating Daniel Sedin like a bobblehead doll in Game 6 with no response from the Canucks is as much a metaphor for that series as anything.

To put an emphasis on Mareks article Brody's column made this point

The Canucks were all the rage last season, winning the President's Trophy as regular season champs, but ultimately the year was a huge disappointment as they blew a 2-0 series lead in the Stanley Cup final and lost a seven-game series to the Bruins. Instead of celebrating Canada's first Stanley Cup championship since the Montreal Canadiens won it in 1992-93, the Canucks now face questions moving forward.

RELATED
Brophy: Chasin' YashinCanucks re-sign HansenRichards happy in LAThe Sedin twins are tremendous regular season talents, but can Daniel and Henrik get it done at crunch time? There is no denying they failed to deliver in the final.

Are the Canucks tough enough? The Bruins thoroughly dominated the physical side of the final and punctuated their toughness by wining Game 7 on the road - no easy feat.

Can Roberto Luongo lead a team to glory? Yes he has a gold medal from the 2010 Winter Olympics in his trophy case, but most would agree while he played well in the Games, he was the benefactor of playing on a star-studded team whose main job was to simply not lose games for his club.

There is every reason to believe the Canucks will be back in the mix of things next season and they should be hungrier than ever based on last season's disappointing ending. However, GM Mike Gillis really hasn't done much to change things so unless the twins and Luongo take their games to the next level in the playoffs, is a better outcome really in the cards?

I suspect that what MG is trying to overcome this summer, he doesn't want to see that happen again