Plot behind the Carter & Richards deals thickens

[sagebrush]

Apparently Carter & Richards suffered from the same ailment as Shane Obrien.

Both players' output dropped a bit in the last couple years, but they have plenty of talent.
Phili's return on these trades never quite made sense to me, until now.

Carter & Richards were cornerstones on a contending team. Like Kesler is here.
Now Phili seems to be in re-building mode.

Given that Carter and Richards both have long term contracts near Luongo's Cap, should GM MG have tried to swing a deal (before the Bryzgalov contract by Phili)? A change in scenery may straighten these guy out.

A team's status as a contender can vanish quickly.
The Canucks window of opportunity should not be taken for granted.

Cap Hits: Carter 5.3M$/Yr; Richards 5.8M$/Yr; Luongo 5.3M$/Yr; Bryzgalov 5.7M$/Yr
Carter to CBJ; .....Voracek + 1st + 3rd to Phili
Richards to LA; ....Schenn + Simmonds + 2nd to Phili

[dhabums]

Isn't this old news?

[sagebrush]

The deals are a month old, the reason for them isn't (storey from phili paper dated today).

At first I thought of this as a storey about rich, spoiled hockey players. Then I thought about how our club has not improved since the play offs, and missed opportunities.

Doesn't an arm chair GM's job included reviewing the performance of the real thing?

[rats19]

The deals are a month old, the reason for them isn't (storey from phili paper dated today).

At first I thought of this as a storey about rich, spoiled hockey players. Then I thought about how our club has not improved since the play offs, and missed opportunities.

Just being healthy is an improvement, plus sturm may surprise us and I don't think gillis is done. May take to february..but he aint done.
Imho.

[Canuck-One]

I think Philly did alright in those trades. Schenn is a quality young pick with a mountain of upside. Simmonds is a strong north south type who can bang at will and then a 2nd rounder. For Carter they got Voracek plus a first round pick. I liked him in his draft year and he is still very young so he could be a good one down the road. They got all of this, despite the fact that everyone knew these two have turned into party animals ala OB and they weren't being as productive as their skill level would allow. You can't allow that to creep into the dressing room because it builds a sense of favoritism. If they were just left to be "good 'ol boys" the rest of the team would have suffered. One team, one set of rules of conduct.

[sagebrush]

Just being healthy is an improvement, plus sturm may surprise us and I don't think gillis is done. May take to february..but he aint done.
Imho.

Most teams start healthy, but contenders need enough depth to carry them through the play offs.

I was hoping Gillis would have an opportunity to take advantage the GM's annual game of chicken - where some teams have to get under the cap before the fall. However, not many teams have this problem.

We still have some trade chips to play, but I don't see very many. Our immediate future may rest on player development, and a couple guys having a much better year.

[sagebrush]

I think Philly did alright in those trades.

In the long term, I agree, but I don't think of Phili as a contender anymore.

[ESQ]

Carter particularly at that cap hit is attractive, but they both don't fit MG's MO (or the MGMO) of the kind of people he wants in this organization. While the cap likely won't continue going up by leaps and bounds, it is going to continue to go up, and by the time Carter hits what should be his prime (around 30) that could be a real steal.

I personally think a high but fair price was paid for Richards, and I'm not sure the Canucks have the young talent to match. But Carter was had for a song. The Canucks would have had to give up more draft picks to make up for their low value, but we have many comparable players to Voracek - who, by the way, only got a 1 year extension from Philly, so I'm not sure they see much of a future with him.

But the red flags with these guys are huge. It seemed like a crazy move at the time, and even with this new report it seems crazy. Which probably means that they were worse than we realize, and the Flyers thought they were beyond rehabilitation, even if only one of them was shipped out.

[sagebrush]

Carter particularly at that cap hit is attractive, but they both don't fit MG's MO (or the MGMO) of the kind of people he wants in this organization. While the cap likely won't continue going up by leaps and bounds, it is going to continue to go up, and by the time Carter hits what should be his prime (around 30) that could be a real steal.

I personally think a high but fair price was paid for Richards, and I'm not sure the Canucks have the young talent to match. But Carter was had for a song. The Canucks would have had to give up more draft picks to make up for their low value, but we have many comparable players to Voracek - who, by the way, only got a 1 year extension from Philly, so I'm not sure they see much of a future with him.

But the red flags with these guys are huge. It seemed like a crazy move at the time, and even with this new report it seems crazy. Which probably means that they were worse than we realize, and the Flyers thought they were beyond rehabilitation, even if only one of them was shipped out.

It would be interesting to know if Phili approached Gillis. Phili invested a lot of money in Bryzgalov. A direct swap for Luongo might have got Richards or Carter.

[Eddy Punch Clock]

Just being healthy is an improvement, plus sturm may surprise us and I don't think gillis is done. May take to february..but he aint done.
Imho.

Hey Rats, this thread has inspired a country song title...

"Contenders, Bartenders and Pretenders on Benders"

Run with it. E-mail me when you're done.

[ESQ]

I was hoping Gillis would have an opportunity to take advantage the GM's annual game of chicken - where some teams have to get under the cap before the fall. However, not many teams have this problem.

You're right about that, I was shocked by how few teams are in cap trouble. I guess it goes to show that salaries that seemed crazy this offseason are not inflating at the same pace as the cap, and as a result fewer teams are right at the ceiling.

The one team that sticks out to me is Buffalo - they're over by 3.5 mil AND have both Tyler Myers and Tyler Ennis up for new contracts the year following. The one guy that jumps out at me is Gaustad - he'd be a solid third liner who could spot in on the PP. Unfortunately, I don't think you get him without taking a salary dump, which would almost have to be Kotalik. Still I'd make that trade.

It would be interesting to know if Phili approached Gillis. Phili invested a lot of money in Bryzgalov. A direct swap for Luongo might have got Richards or Carter.

I would think that every GM knows Luongo is untouchable - he has a very-specifically structured contract with tradeable windows in years 5 and 7, and its clear that he is the cornerstone of this Canuck "window" (I'm a big Luongo booster, fyi). If he were on the market, there's no question every GM in the league would be calling, now that Bryzgalov has set the market for starting goalies with limited playoff experience at a higher cap hit than Lu, who probably has more playoff wins than any other active goalie except Fleury and Brodeur.

[Madcombinepilot]

A direct swap for Luongo might have got Richards or Carter.

why do people keep including Luongo - with his no movement clause - in speculative trades?

It just aint gonna happen....

[sagebrush]

I would think that every GM knows Luongo is untouchable - he has a very-specifically structured contract with tradeable windows in years 5 and 7, and its clear that he is the cornerstone of this Canuck "window" (I'm a big Luongo booster, fyi). If he were on the market, there's no question every GM in the league would be calling, now that Bryzgalov has set the market for starting goalies with limited playoff experience at a higher cap hit than Lu, who probably has more playoff wins than any other active goalie except Fleury and Brodeur.

I don't mean to dump on Luongo, most of his problems in the finals are a reflection of the support he didn't get. However, if he and management both thought a trade was desirable, it could happen. He must be at least a little pissed with the local media. That said, I also think there are times where he could set a better example for team mates, and raise confidence levels.

Agree that Bryzgalov's contract makes Luongo's look good.

[rats19]

Just being healthy is an improvement, plus sturm may surprise us and I don't think gillis is done. May take to february..but he aint done.
Imho.

Hey Rats, this thread has inspired a country song title...

"Contenders, Bartenders and Pretenders on Benders"

Run with it. E-mail me when you're done.

6mins at work...
Contenders, Bartenders and Pretenders out on Benders"
That’s what its all about…
Cuz ya cant get your licks in if you cant get your sticks in
The face of another man…

Rules are made…. for some to break
That’s just how it goes..
Others do the same thing ..end up with
The pen…alty box woes…..

Contenders, Bartenders and Pretenders out on Benders"
That is what its all about…
Cuz ya cant get your licks in if you cant get your sticks in
The face of another man…

Oh yah you can bitem…heh
Or you can even take a punch
but when the zebra aint blowing
your likely not knowing that you are truly out to lunch..…

To sum it up quickly and make this point
It all Smells like rotten eggs
From the tippy tippy top on …down to the N..H…LPA
There enough of this junk to really… stink up the joint

Contenders, Bartenders and Pretenders out on Benders"
That’s what its all about…
Cuz ya cant get your licks in if you cant get your sticks in
The face of another man…

[tantalum]

RIchards and Carter being fond of partying and drinking wasn't a secret. Pronger had previously called the young leaderships professionalism into question shortly after arriving in Philadephia.

The story is that the Flyers tried to address it with this dry island thing and received no participation from those two core players when clearly they expected it (and clearly were sending a message to them that in order to succeed they need to get more serious). Even if it was optional I can see the lack of participation by Carter and RIchards for at least a bit of the dry island thing as an issue.