Team toughness - Fighting

[dr.dork]

There is also a big difference between a crease clearing defensemen that everyone knows you don't need any more and a large defensemen with good positioning and ample reach.

Agreed. Why are people still calling for the former?

I don't know. You don't need a big crease clearing defenseman because you can't really do that any more. But size and reach are still important. And if you go and look at the statistics of very good defensemen you will see that they hit. Their hits are often near the top of their team.

I think we're still a little soft on D. But probably better than last year and I think our third line is capable of playing much more physical. I don't think we're going to get anything in terms of upgrades given our cap situation. We'll see what happens when Salo returns but I think we will have to move someone at that point.

[the toucan kid]

I think we're still a little soft on D.

Rather be soft than slow back there, that's what killed us first and foremost.

[nucklehead_88]

I don't deny that there is MORE hitting in the playoffs, I deny that it any longer is as valuable to the game as it had been in the past. You can effect the game less with it, unless you mean taking penalties. Physicality has been much marginalized.

Touc, I really don't understand how you and Arbour can be watching the same games as the rest of us and say that physicality isn't important in the playoffs. I would agree that it is a much different type of physicality from the pre-lockout, with a massive reduction in the whole clutching grabbing style, but hitting, shoving and pushing and related physical play, are just as important as ever. Sure, that type of play is only a single element of the game and one that is less important than scoring, goaltending and defense, but it is a very important element none the less. All other things being equal, the team with greater toughness is going to win a 7 game playoff series. I don't think you can reasonably argue that toughness does not have a significant impact on other facets of the game if used correctly. While Lou may have been a little off his game anyway in the playoffs last year, being run all the time (in the Chicago series especially) had a definite effect on his confidence and on his game. Excuse that off as a lack of mental control on his part, but it remains true that it did impact his game. As others have mentioned, consistent hitting and physical play, over the course of a series will wear down the teams who are the at the other end of such play. Even the Sedins, who you hold up as examples of the shift in the style of play, were thrown off their games last year by a team playing a tougher more in your face game. I am not really sure how you can claim that physicality is somehow a marginalized part of the game.

As for fighting specifically, to say true fans do or don't like it is just an arbitrary blanket statement. I, personally, think that fighting is an exciting and important element of the game and would like it to remain there. I like to see a good tussle and do think that, at the right time, it injects some adrenaline into the team and shows fans the extent of emotion felt by the respective players (obviously this does not apply to show fights). I still remember the Iginla Lecavlier fight in the finals - that was an amazing show of emotion by both captains and truly mirrored the passion both felt. Maybe you don't like that - I do. Sadly, I think you are probably right that fighting won't be much longer in the game. As the culture moves towards pacifism, any sort of aggression or violence becomes taboo and is dubbed as being "neanderthal", "barbarian", "archaic", ad nauseam. Obviously no sophisticated person could actually condone or, heaven forbid, appreciate such acts uncivilized behaviour in sport. Certainly, there is a line in which violence becomes totally unnecessary and moves to the realm of bloodlust and sadism, but I think hockey fights (again, not the show fights) are far from this line.

This. for ever and ever and ever and ever.

[dr.dork]

I think we're still a little soft on D.

Rather be soft than slow back there, that's what killed us first and foremost.

Rather be neither is what most people are saying. Which might be a dream, but that is what we do around here.

I don't think anyone is saying our D is worse and I think most people think this team is deeper and better than Vancouver teams in the recent past. But it still might be missing some elements of team toughness (when it comes to hitting). Even Detroit which is lauded as this "non tough team" can hit. They are just very disciplined and not taking stupid retaliatory penalties is misinterpreted (usually by Cherry and his buddies) as not being tough. But really, it is just that Detroit can dish it out and take it too. (And we do need improvement in the "taking it" category. The Sedins, among others, lost their marbles against Chicago last year in the playoffs but typically they are very disciplined).

Nobody is saying speed isn't important or less important than toughness or hitting, but you need a balance of both. Even Raymond has learned that, and while he would be easily pushed off the puck earlier in his career and had speed and not much else, he has learned to use his speed when necessary, and is now strong enough to go in the corners and come out with the puck. On the other hand, Raymond is down there with the Sedin's on dishing out hits, so that needs to be compensated for elsewhere or improvement is required.

[the toucan kid]

Rather be neither is what most people are saying. Which might be a dream, but that is what we do around here.

That's not what I'm reading. There's a clear reactionary sputter toward grunting tough guys and not much in the way of acknowledgment about the truly important parts of the game today: speed and passing. I'm not sure what a tough D-man is that can move is anymore, maybe Alex Edler?, But whoever you do mean, we can't afford him and certainly won't be getting one. Do you want a big slug like Alberts? I hope not because he was disastrous last playoff.

This. for ever and ever and ever and ever.

I thought the second paragraph was much better than the second. It at least made it's point strongly, even if it wasn't exactly one I was speaking to. Alas, the first one basically is the same "toughness is important... because it is" that I have been seeing. Well written at least.

[Tciso]

Rather be neither is what most people are saying. Which might be a dream, but that is what we do around here.

That's not what I'm reading. There's a clear reactionary sputter toward grunting tough guys and not much in the way of acknowledgment about the truly important parts of the game today: speed and passing. I'm not sure what a tough D-man is that can move is anymore, maybe Alex Edler?, But whoever you do mean, we can't afford him and certainly won't be getting one. Do you want a big slug like Alberts? I hope not because he was disastrous last playoff.

I admit that last season, I was on the "Oh my God, no Alberts again" bus during the playoffs. But, now that he has learned our system, he has been a pretty good surprise, and a very serviceable #5/#6 d-main this year. Yes, he is slow, but this year, he is using his size, and playing much better positionally. if he is our #6 in this year's playoffs, I am surprisingly comfortable with that.

[the toucan kid]

I admit that last season, I was on the "Oh my God, no Alberts again" bus during the playoffs. But, now that he has learned our system, he has been a pretty good surprise, and a very serviceable #5/#6 d-main this year. Yes, he is slow, but this year, he is using his size, and playing much better positionally. if he is our #6 in this year's playoffs, I am surprisingly comfortable with that.

He's better, but not sure he's a good regular.

[dr.dork]

I admit that last season, I was on the "Oh my God, no Alberts again" bus during the playoffs. But, now that he has learned our system, he has been a pretty good surprise, and a very serviceable #5/#6 d-main this year. Yes, he is slow, but this year, he is using his size, and playing much better positionally. if he is our #6 in this year's playoffs, I am surprisingly comfortable with that.

He's better, but not sure he's a good regular.

On the subject of the thread, Alberts leads the team in hits. Which is what he should be doing given his size and position on the depth chart. He is fine in the number 5 or 6 position, which is clearly better than what he was last year. He is bringing more (at least in hitting) than SOB was at a lower cap hit, so I have no complaints about Alberts so far.

Touc, Edler is probably close to what I'm thinking, although I can't speak for anyone else. He hits, he is getting better positionally but he doesn't have the edge that someone like, say, Bieksa has. He doesn't exactly intimidate opponents but he is big, mobile, and young. Edler is having a good year so far, and he has taken a step forward from last year. Anyway, Edler is a good component of team toughness because he hits, but do you want him intimidating someone when Louie gets run over ? Probably not. Bieksa does that job well, but like I said, still a bit soft there. And no, I don't think we can or will do much about it. There is the cap problem and big, mobile, tough defensemen don't grow on trees.

[Tciso]

This. for ever and ever and ever and ever.

F*&kin awesome Avatar, Dude!

[nucklehead_88]

This. for ever and ever and ever and ever.

F*&kin awesome Avatar, Dude!

saw em last week for the second time unreallllllll

[the toucan kid]

Anyway, Edler is a good component of team toughness because he hits, but do you want him intimidating someone when Louie gets run over ?

Honestly, Lou doesn't get run over, he fakes it to try to draw penalties. I thought three/four years ago there was a real problem, and yeah there were a few times last playoff, but he makes his case with the refs so bad with the flopping. As for intimidation, I don't believe you can. The best intimidation is a great powerplay... which with Edler and Ehroff, we're certainly clicking with.

[Arbour]

The best intimidation is a great powerplay... which with Edler and Ehroff, we're certainly clicking with.

Which is is exactly what Gillis said in so many words, during his team 1040 interview on December 14, and given the post lockout NHL it makes perfect sense. Rather than retaliate respond by scoring.

[dr.dork]

The best intimidation is a great powerplay... which with Edler and Ehroff, we're certainly clicking with.

Which is is exactly what Gillis said in so many words, during his team 1040 interview on December 14, and given the post lockout NHL it makes perfect sense. Rather than retaliate respond by scoring.

This is the same guy who traded for Andrew Peters and bulked up our third line with the addition of Malholtra and Torres.

And I agree you need a good powerplay to cause teams to be overly cautious, but you still need to hit. Even Detroit who is the perennial posterchild for making you pay on the powerplay can hit. They are up there in league hitting stats.

Touc, I do agree with Luongo and his diving. I don't know why he is doing that because it rarely works and then when he does get run over he doesn't get the call.

[the Cunning Linguist]

How did the Hawks beat us, firstly talent including speed and scoring, and then physicality and by that I mean they won more puck battles went to the net more. Was it toughness as shown in pre lockout no, but the Hawk players were certainly for the most part not content to be perimeter players.

More along this line: this past summer, the Canucks re-built its bottom 6 to get 'tougher'... Chicago had to divest itself of the bottom half of its roster just to get under the cap. The result: most of the players Vancouver cut loose are no longer in the league or continue to be fringe players for other teams (Wellfed, Bernier, Demitra, Pettinger, Grabner, Johnson, etc.), whereas many of the players that Chicago cut loose or traded are now important contributors for their new teams (Byfuglien, Ladd, Versteeg, Sopel, etc.). Maybe, the Blackhawks were just that much more skilled all around...

[the toucan kid]

This is the same guy who traded for Andrew Peters and bulked up our third line with the addition of Malholtra and Torres.

Don't watch the A, where Peters is going to stay, maybe there's more shenanigans down there that they need a goon to protect real prospects?

Malhotra is more a modern defensive specialist then a tough guy. Torres does have some old fashion elements to his game, but he can also score, so while I don't object to guys like him, I'm not sure how many of them you want us to have?

As for hitting as a stat, anyone can throw a hit, so... I mean Daniel Sedin will go over and bump a guy on the half boards here and there, that doesn't really count much for toughness or intensity or intimidation or whatever. It's not a bad thing, it shows you're engaged in your position and battling for the puck, but it's not like hits mean crushing a guy with your superior size and then taking the puck, while at the same time making him a quivering mess at the very sight of your team insignia.