Is Vancouver Ready ?

[rockalt]

Mark How big do you think Vancouver (Lower Mainland) will be in 5 years or even 10 years

In 10 they will be very close to being Canada's largest City..Canada and the World got a chance to see Vancouver up close and personal During the Oympics.. The boom after Expo86 was huge just wait and see what it's like after the Olympics.

http://www40.statcan.gc.ca/l01/cst01/demo05a-eng.htm

Umm.... no. I love Vancouver, don't get me wrong, but it's like a tiny hick city compared to Toronto. Perhaps in the long run Vancouver will catch up but unless the population doubles in the next ten years, it ain't happening that soon. When I moved to Vancouver twenty years ago, the population was about 1.5 million. Yes it's growing but it takes time.

I just think we'll see a second team in Toronto before we see one in Vancouver - actually I don't think we'll see one in Vancouver and am doubtful we'll have a two-team city for some time.

[Arbour]

Section 4.1(c) of the NHL Constitution outlines territorial rights for NHL clubs. The section states that each Member Club "shall have exclusive territorial rights in the city in which it is located and within fifty miles of that city's corporate limits". The section gives a particular club a "home territory" and the right to veto the relocation of any existing NHL franchise or establishment of any new NHL franchise within a fifty mile or eighty kilometer radius of that "home territory". So unless Francesco Aquilini is feeling particularly generous or Chilliwack experiences some phenomenal growth the Canucks will be it for a while.

[LotusBlossom]

I don't see it happening period. I think at times we overestimate the capabilities of the fair city. If anything, I'd rather see a team possibly in Halifax over another one here in Vancouver. Besides, my loyalties would lie with the Nuckleheads. I just couldn't picture myself cheering for another team.

As for the Surrey comments, I find it funny coming from someone who hasn't lived in the Lower Mainland since the early 1980's to be making such comments...really.

Where do you think i Live?

No trouble, I was talking about Arachnid making comments about Surrey. He hasn't lived in the Lower Mainland for almost 30 years and he made a 'derogatory' comment about Surrey. I find it amusing. Sorry for making it sound like it was directed towards you.

[MarkMM]

Mark How big do you think Vancouver (Lower Mainland) will be in 5 years or even 10 years

In 10 they will be very close to being Canada's largest City..Canada and the World got a chance to see Vancouver up close and personal During the Oympics.. The boom after Expo86 was huge just wait and see what it's like after the Olympics.

Okay, that's a fair point. Vancouver will be growing, but so are Toronto, Montreal, and in fact, most urban centres in North America. I also wonder to what degree Vancouver's growth rate will slow, the cost of living is increasingly becoming unsustainable for many, and this is being dealt with by people moving further and further out, which will at some point run out of room because of our geography, something you don't run into in places like Toronto and surrounding areas which can just sprawl on indefinitely, creating more and more mini-urban centres.

That still won't address the fact that two NHL teams so close geographically together be it in Surrey or the Pacific Coliseum, not only would the Canucks veto the idea, but I think the NHL would question why that's necessary. Bettman's Sunbelt strategy has largely failed, and they need to move more teams to core markets, but that doesn't mean they don't try to keep some geographic distance so that more people who ARE interested have access to them (Hamilton, Quebec, Winnipeg).

[dangler]

Section 4.1(c) of the NHL Constitution outlines territorial rights for NHL clubs. The section states that each Member Club "shall have exclusive territorial rights in the city in which it is located and within fifty miles of that city's corporate limits". The section gives a particular club a "home territory" and the right to veto the relocation of any existing NHL franchise or establishment of any new NHL franchise within a fifty mile or eighty kilometer radius of that "home territory". So unless Francesco Aquilini is feeling particularly generous or Chilliwack experiences some phenomenal growth the Canucks will be it for a while.

Thats an interesting rule Arbour,I never knew that it was a 50 mile limit.I guess that would explain Balsille's failure to move or start anything in Hamilton.I also wasn't aware Hamilton is only 41 miles from TO.

[rockalt]

I don't see it happening period. I think at times we overestimate the capabilities of the fair city. If anything, I'd rather see a team possibly in Halifax over another one here in Vancouver. Besides, my loyalties would lie with the Nuckleheads. I just couldn't picture myself cheering for another team.

As for the Surrey comments, I find it funny coming from someone who hasn't lived in the Lower Mainland since the early 1980's to be making such comments...really.

Where do you think i Live?

No trouble, I was talking about Arachnid making comments about Surrey. He hasn't lived in the Lower Mainland for almost 30 years and he made a 'derogatory' comment about Surrey. I find it amusing. Sorry for making it sound like it was directed towards you.

Has Surrey changed a great deal? I know growing up it was the "classic" joke but don't really know how much it's changed over 30 years.

Truth is if you live in Vancouver, there's no reason to go out there. I had to pick something up from someone who lived out there a few years back and made a stop out at the main sky train station (can't remember the name... surrey central?). It was a Sunday afternoon and yet I still found the place to be pretty sketch. This is coming from someone who's walked home from through the downtown eastside late at night on a number of occasions. I had to then hop on a bus to the middle of nowhere which wasn't particularly uncomfortable so much as boring.

I know that sounds typically elitist but I want to just note that I don't hold strong opinions on Surrey one way or another. Rather, I think a lot of Vancouverites simply hear urban legends and incidences of grow-ups and stabbings and then extrapolate from there, further fueling the "Surrey sucks" jokes. Coupled with the fact that on the odd occasion they find themselves in Surrey, it's likely in one of the worse parts, it's no surprise they don't care much for it.

The truth is Surrey is freaking massive and like any city/suburb, has nice areas and not so nice ones. I'm sure there are neighbourhoods which are considerably nicer than ones in Vancouver. It's certainly not for me but I understand the appeal of living out there (more affordable... if that term can even be used in Vancouver anymore, bigger house, amenities, etc.)

[Cornuck]

The funniest thing I remember about Vancouver-ites and Surrey is, that they couldn't get find their way around easy. Surrey was this "vast area where all the streets have numbers". To us locals, it was great - you knew exactly where an address was and far away it was. Compared to Vancouver and their odd "Names" - it was a breeze.

For many urbanites, it was a wilderness. And a wild one at that.

I'll always remember taking my (first) fiancee (from Burnaby) to a "Surrey" party that some friends were throwing. It had everything: A woman screaming because her husband left in a cab with another woman, a guy strangling his daughter, me removing said father from the house to a place a few blocks away (in togas, of course) someone jumping off the roof, ambulance visit, and this is all aside from the regular drunken debauchery. Odd how some reputations get confirmed .

I lived in Surrey (Newton, Whalley, Guildford) , Kits, Langley, North Delta, PoCo - they all had their good and bad points. Surrey has the most 'memories'.

[trouble]

There is no doubt They would need to get the Canucks on board to make this happen.. I talked about this in my first post on this subject. It works good and bad for the Canucks. Good, that they have a team closer to them less travel and cost. Bad that they have competion for making money, But i really feel there is enough money and support for both.


As for your Question Jelly.. If it was to happen it would have to be a team moving from the USA. There are many teams in the states that are having problems and would love a way out.

[Cornuck]

Question for Trouble:

If you were running the Canucks, would let another team move to the Lower Mainland?

[MarkMM]

There is no doubt They would need to get the Canucks on board to make this happen.. I talked about this in my first post on this subject. It works good and bad for the Canucks. Good, that they have a team closer to them less travel and cost. Bad that they have competion for making money, But i really feel there is enough money and support for both.


As for your Question Jelly.. If it was to happen it would have to be a team moving from the USA. There are many teams in the states that are having problems and would love a way out.

Okay, the marginal cost they'd save from having a team close by would NOT come close to off-setting the loss of the monopoly on the market. Right now, the Canucks can charge whatever the market will bear, and get away with it; the moment you have another team sharing the same corporate base and fan base, then it becomes a race to the bottom in terms of pricing, Economics 101 will tell you this will not work out well for the Canucks. That's the whole thinking behind having a home market clause in the franchise agreement.

It also makes it less valuable to a corporate sponsor. What's the value in paying a lot of money to be showcased as the Canucks sponsor when for a cheaper price, you can get an NHL sponsorship for the same market? Then it becomes a price-cutting war for both teams, makes it cheaper for the sponsors but kills the teams. Why do you think VANOC was so hysterical about any kind of infringement of the Olympic logo and use? It wasn't for their good, it was so that they could protect the value of the corporate sponsors, and allow VANOC to charge an arm and a leg for any kind of official sponsorship.

[trouble]

Question for Trouble:

If you were running the Canucks, would let another team move to the Lower Mainland?

Thats a fair question..and no doubt one of the major stumbling blocks on something like this happening. I would really need to see the books and see what kind of a deal could be worked out.

But if i was the owner, my first reaction would be no way

[trouble]

There is no doubt They would need to get the Canucks on board to make this happen.. I talked about this in my first post on this subject. It works good and bad for the Canucks. Good, that they have a team closer to them less travel and cost. Bad that they have competion for making money, But i really feel there is enough money and support for both.


As for your Question Jelly.. If it was to happen it would have to be a team moving from the USA. There are many teams in the states that are having problems and would love a way out.

Okay, the marginal cost they'd save from having a team close by would NOT come close to off-setting the loss of the monopoly on the market. Right now, the Canucks can charge whatever the market will bear, and get away with it; the moment you have another team sharing the same corporate base and fan base, then it becomes a race to the bottom in terms of pricing, Economics 101 will tell you this will not work out well for the Canucks. That's the whole thinking behind having a home market clause in the franchise agreement.

It also makes it less valuable to a corporate sponsor. What's the value in paying a lot of money to be showcased as the Canucks sponsor when for a cheaper price, you can get an NHL sponsorship for the same market? Then it becomes a price-cutting war for both teams, makes it cheaper for the sponsors but kills the teams. Why do you think VANOC was so hysterical about any kind of infringement of the Olympic logo and use? It wasn't for their good, it was so that they could protect the value of the corporate sponsors, and allow VANOC to charge an arm and a leg for any kind of official sponsorship.

Mark you make some very good points and i agree. You also need to remember that The Canucks and a few other money making teams are paying the bills for these losing teams now and that also becomes very draining and something needs to change. I really doubt the league wants to shrink so they need homes for these teams . Atlanta and Phoniex need to move ASAP and there is a few more that are very close.

[MarkMM]

There is no doubt They would need to get the Canucks on board to make this happen.. I talked about this in my first post on this subject. It works good and bad for the Canucks. Good, that they have a team closer to them less travel and cost. Bad that they have competion for making money, But i really feel there is enough money and support for both.


As for your Question Jelly.. If it was to happen it would have to be a team moving from the USA. There are many teams in the states that are having problems and would love a way out.

Okay, the marginal cost they'd save from having a team close by would NOT come close to off-setting the loss of the monopoly on the market. Right now, the Canucks can charge whatever the market will bear, and get away with it; the moment you have another team sharing the same corporate base and fan base, then it becomes a race to the bottom in terms of pricing, Economics 101 will tell you this will not work out well for the Canucks. That's the whole thinking behind having a home market clause in the franchise agreement.

It also makes it less valuable to a corporate sponsor. What's the value in paying a lot of money to be showcased as the Canucks sponsor when for a cheaper price, you can get an NHL sponsorship for the same market? Then it becomes a price-cutting war for both teams, makes it cheaper for the sponsors but kills the teams. Why do you think VANOC was so hysterical about any kind of infringement of the Olympic logo and use? It wasn't for their good, it was so that they could protect the value of the corporate sponsors, and allow VANOC to charge an arm and a leg for any kind of official sponsorship.

Mark you make some very good points and i agree. You also need to remember that The Canucks and a few other money making teams are paying the bills for these losing teams now and that also becomes very draining and something needs to change. I really doubt the league wants to shrink so they need homes for these teams . Atlanta and Phoniex need to move ASAP and there is a few more that are very close.

I'm 100% with you on this, but they are enough homes for these teams that it'll be a while before Vancouver gets a look at for a second team in this market. Bummer that Hamilton lies within the 50 miles of Toronto, but that's still way more plausible than Vancouver, and there's still Winnipeg, Quebec, Kansas, Las Vegas, Oklahoma, Houston, Seattle, Portland and Hartford that'll likely get a look before Surrey.

[trouble]

I'm 100% with you on this, but they are enough homes for these teams that it'll be a while before Vancouver gets a look at for a second team in this market. Bummer that Hamilton lies within the 50 miles of Toronto, but that's still way more plausible than Vancouver, and there's still Winnipeg, Quebec, Kansas, Las Vegas, Oklahoma, Houston, Seattle, Portland and Hartford that'll likely get a look before Surrey.

I look at those places you talk about and go wow besides Winterpeg and Quebec which neither really have a big enough place to play the rest look like more problems for the NHL

[Arachnid]

Toronto will not be getting a second NHL franchise. I can guaranfukingtee that.

The MLSE will NEVER allow it as someone posted in the NHL by-laws. They cannot own another franchise here either. That's a monopoly.
As much credit as you people give the great City of Toronto as the Center of the Universe. It's pretty funny actually
Toronto is a hole. On it's own it is nothing. Compared to Paris, London, Berlin, New York it is a shitstain. Seriously.
What gives Toronto it's power is the surrounding area. The Greater Toronto Area (oh the audacity of naming it that even!) or better said...The Golden Horseshoe. The population of this market is huge and growing at a greater rate than any where else in Canada.

Here's something that few know, it is Not your Toronto Maple leaves that are blocking Hamilton from getting an NHL franchise. No sirree Bob it is Buffalo. They almost went bankrupt a few years ago. Hamilton, Burlington, Oakville and Niagara area have many Canadian fans that are tired of the losing reality distortion hockey club to the North East.
Simply put. You put a pro hockey team in Steeltown. The Sabres are done!

Surrey = Scarborough

Good areas. Bad areas. Not going to change. In fact Scarborough, despite having some of the worst crime areas in Toronto, has some of the most exclusive and costly homes in Toronto.

Nuff said.

Surrey was a hole 30 years ago and it's a hole now. I'd rather live in downtown Saskatoon than that hellhole of a suburb (mind you that goes for most burbs).

So back to big bad Toronto. Toronto is not growing. Terrible public transport and road system. No room but up. It is the GTA that grows. Particularly North and to the West of here in a place formally known as New Berlin.

Kitchener/Waterloo and the surronding area are huge (London, Geulph). Even if RIM is based there. I don't know why JB doesn't concentrate on re-locating a franchise there. Well actually I do know. Lack of an Airport doesn't help (Hamilton has a very good one, if small...think Abbotsford).

What makes Toronto though is the hub. It is the Center of everything around here. I can go to the cottage and the old growth forrest camping up North in 4-8 hours. Beautiful peaceful Canadian Shield country. Want entertainment? Montreal in 5-6 hours. Chicago in 6-8. New York City 8-10. This is driving of course. With a local Turbo prop it is mere minutes and cheap too.
Do I miss the West Coast? You bet. But then, I have the gorgeous East Coast in 8-10 hours (when I drive through the New England States...which has great skiing btw). Bay of Fundy. Gaspe Peninsula. Unspoiled New Brunswick and Nova Scotia. The Prairie mentality of the PEI people. Man this country is just soooo amazing if you just travel and live other places.
To me, there is no place better than the other. They all have the good and bad. I love it all. But that's just me. Maybe I started to appreciate the whole nation after a trip to Europe in my youth.

Back to hockey. If Saskatchewan can't get an NHL franchise (and many on here argued against it getting one) because it doesn't fit into the 'romantic' puck notion or names of Bury Buttman then Surrey sure the hell doesn't. What would you call them? The Surrey Slutz?

And I agree with Soapy on this. Enough of the BS. The proof is in the posting (pudding) to paraphrase a long dead and unworthy poster from here. It's all a bunch of lies and smoke and mirrors.

Um...how many more games before the Season starts?