Forsberg?

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Broda
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Re: Forsberg?

Post by Broda » Mon Nov 09, 2009 6:27 pm

I think its exactly liek the sundin situation last year. You add him to your team with out taking away. Otherwise im out.

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Re: Forsberg?

Post by the toucan kid » Mon Nov 09, 2009 8:07 pm

Mitchell for (roughly) a bucket of pucks and a used roll of hockey tape. (Mitchell has been solid and we likely don't want to lose him next year).
I stand by that theory (although not this particular interpretation of it :lol: )
(Mitchell has been solid and we likely don't want to lose him next year)
Never had anything against him, just are we getting value for that investment, or more importantly will we continue to get value for that investment at similar money over another fairly long-term contract. Count me out of that.
The way it stands now, I wouldn't move someone who was in the long term plan (Bieksa/Edler) unless there was a very high quality prospect returned.
Yeah, absolutely.
f my capologist is telling me we can't do it without jettisoning a core player then forget it.
I'm not sure I consider Bieksa a core player. That said, you certainly don't give him up for nothing to bring Forsberg in.
Too risky, and we're better off going with Farhan's plan of WCE reunification.
Hey, we're all about coaxing Swedes out of retirement. Still if I had to pick one... ole Nazzy probably wouldn't top the list.

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Re: Forsberg?

Post by dr.dork » Mon Nov 09, 2009 11:36 pm

the toucan kid wrote:
(Mitchell has been solid and we likely don't want to lose him next year)
Never had anything against him, just are we getting value for that investment, or more importantly will we continue to get value for that investment at similar money over another fairly long-term contract. Count me out of that.
I think we are getting value for that investment. Who exactly is a bigger bargain on the blueline ?

You know what bugs me ? Not offering a contract to a player with the "excuse" that you don't want to insult them. Isn't no offer a bigger insult than a short term contract at reasonable dollars ? Let the player say no. The first rule of negotiations is to make the other side be the one that ultimately says "no" and the corollary is always make a counter offer. Although admittedly we never really know what happens, and if the agent says "don't even talk to me about anything less than X", then maybe it is pointless to continue.

Maybe Mitchell will stay for reasonable dollars. You don't know until you see what the landscape is and given the cap issues it may be a buyers market.

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Re: Forsberg?

Post by the toucan kid » Tue Nov 10, 2009 8:12 am

I think we are getting value for that investment. Who exactly is a bigger bargain on the blueline ?
I think Ken Holland is entirely right about stay home defensemen, you just don't give them that kind of money - even though he has probably contradicted himself. Especially not when they're already in their mid-30s after a tough career.
You know what bugs me ? Not offering a contract to a player with the "excuse" that you don't want to insult them. Isn't no offer a bigger insult than a short term contract at reasonable dollars ? Let the player say no. The first rule of negotiations is to make the other side be the one that ultimately says "no" and the corollary is always make a counter offer. Although admittedly we never really know what happens, and if the agent says "don't even talk to me about anything less than X", then maybe it is pointless to continue.
It sounds like, strangely, you're presuming that management and the player (or agent) don't talk before the contract offer is made. No offer is probably proceeded by an explanation of why they're moving in another direction. It's not just a kiss-off, I would hope the reasons for it are given.

Would I offer Willie Mitchell a two year 5 million dollar deal? Sure. Would he take it? duh, likely no.

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Re: Forsberg?

Post by Mikodat » Tue Nov 10, 2009 11:33 am

Toucan said:
Would I offer Willie Mitchell a two year 5 million dollar deal? Sure. Would he take it? duh, likely no.
We've already lost Ohlund . We pay 2 barely competent dmen over 3.5 mill ( Edler and Bieksa ) and Mitchell is not in his mid 30's... age right now is 32... Mitchell is by far our most reliable dman and well worth his present pay .. Maybe a bit more.. Game in . game out he plays against oppositions top lines and ends up with a good plus / minus .. He might sign for 3 years 10 mill... and would be a bargain. Please don't gimme that crap about Holland .. what he says and what he actually does are opposite.. No team is going very far without a good D.. and with Salo probably on his last year and no reliable replacement in sight , Mitchell is all we got left.. ( possible Erhoff as a 2 way dman but without the toughness of Mitchell )..
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Re: Forsberg?

Post by dr.dork » Tue Nov 10, 2009 12:41 pm

the toucan kid wrote:
I think we are getting value for that investment. Who exactly is a bigger bargain on the blueline ?
I think Ken Holland is entirely right about stay home defensemen, you just don't give them that kind of money - even though he has probably contradicted himself. Especially not when they're already in their mid-30s after a tough career.

Would I offer Willie Mitchell a two year 5 million dollar deal? Sure. Would he take it? duh, likely no.
You didn't answer the question. Who is currently a better bargain on the blueline based on their current level of play ?

You have to be joking about a $5M dollar deal for two years. $2.5M per won't get you anything and you're seriously missing something if you think that is what he is worth. And do you really think you can get someone else of that value via UFA or RFA ? Or Rome can step in and fill those minutes ?

And I don't know exactly what Holland said, but if you throw out Lidstrom's offensive game, what is he worth from a pure defensive standpoint ? Yes, I know what you will say, 2 years at $2.5M per (but not even your friend Holland would agree with that). Not that Mitchell is there, but he isn't that far off.

Ohlund, in Tampa, got a front end loaded 7 year (!) deal for a cap hit of $3.6 per. That is whacky, but the last 2 years are $2M and $1M, respectively. Mitchell is 32 and is likely to maintain his current level of play for 4 or 5 years (although that may be stretching it).

Mitchell isn't overpaid at $3.5M. He won't be overpaid if he gets the same contract ($14M over 4). We don't have anyone coming up through the ranks and he don't have anyone else to go out and consistently perform against the oppositions top line. Salo is good defensively, but he has that injury issue... and he likely won't be around after next year.

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Re: Forsberg?

Post by the toucan kid » Tue Nov 10, 2009 2:50 pm

We've already lost Ohlund . We pay 2 barely competent dmen over 3.5 mill ( Edler and Bieksa ) and Mitchell is not in his mid 30's... age right now is 32... Mitchell is by far our most reliable dman and well worth his present pay .. Maybe a bit more.. Game in . game out he plays against oppositions top lines and ends up with a good plus / minus .. He might sign for 3 years 10 mill... and would be a bargain. Please don't gimme that crap about Holland .. what he says and what he actually does are opposite.. No team is going very far without a good D.. and with Salo probably on his last year and no reliable replacement in sight , Mitchell is all we got left.. ( possible Erhoff as a 2 way dman but without the toughness of Mitchell )..
We lost Ohlund - we replaced Ohlund with a more dynamic player (at this point). Look at the deal Ohlund got, it is worth it to keep players into their thirties like that.

You're being awfully harsh toward Bieksa and Edler. Problematic as they are, if we're to consider them barely competent, then Mitchell or no, our defense is capitally f*cked anyway.

You didn't answer the question. Who is currently a better bargain on the blueline based on their current level of play ?
Don't care. It's relative to the construction of your squad. Again, (and we've done this before), give me a mediocre NHL d-man at the going rate and I'll take the savings we get from Mitchell and invest them in other ways. That's, to me, more valuable than Willie Mitchell - and Willie Mitchell on the outside of his prime years.
You have to be joking about a $5M dollar deal for two years. $2.5M per won't get you anything and you're seriously missing something if you think that is what he is worth. And do you really think you can get someone else of that value via UFA or RFA ? Or Rome can step in and fill those minutes ?
It's not what he's worth, it's how his price tag fits into OUR construction of a team. Willie Mitchell will get more than that on the open market, I don't dispute that. Is that the right use of our money for our situation? No. We will not get a player as good as Mitchell for 2-2.5 million a year, but what we lose in intangibles (he doesn't produce, and our PK isn't very good anyway) I would rather redistribute.
And I don't know exactly what Holland said, but if you throw out Lidstrom's offensive game, what is he worth from a pure defensive standpoint ? Yes, I know what you will say, 2 years at $2.5M per (but not even your friend Holland would agree with that). Not that Mitchell is there, but he isn't that far off.
Lidstrom's game is much more dynamic than that. He's anticipates the motion of the game better than anyone playing now. He's unusually hockey smart. You can't take his production out of his game because it's tied to his incredible ability to control the play and outsmart players. I would never say Nick Lidstrom is worth 2.5 million, or that Mitchell is worth 2.5 million.

To play your game - Mitchell vs. Lidstrom (no offense) is not even close to me. Lidstrom is too smart to compare to the average hockey player.
Ohlund, in Tampa, got a front end loaded 7 year (!) deal for a cap hit of $3.6 per. That is whacky, but the last 2 years are $2M and $1M, respectively. Mitchell is 32 and is likely to maintain his current level of play for 4 or 5 years (although that may be stretching it).
I don't care what Ohlund is making out of his owner's pocket, I care about how it effects the ability for us to retool our team. I don't know what Mitchell will look like in 5 years, but one has to make a call somewhere.
Mitchell isn't overpaid at $3.5M. He won't be overpaid if he gets the same contract ($14M over 4). We don't have anyone coming up through the ranks and he don't have anyone else to go out and consistently perform against the oppositions top line. Salo is good defensively, but he has that injury issue... and he likely won't be around after next year.
He's probably slightly overpaid in my books, but whatever, 3.5 is a reasonable rate in an isolated, objective sense. You're right, our depth on D is shitty. However, I would rather have the money to put towards filling a hole on our defense (probably with a more well rounded player) than re-invest it in a (33 during this season and only getting older) Willie Mitchell.

Dorky, let's call this one a tie. No one likes re-runs.

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Re: Forsberg?

Post by dr.dork » Tue Nov 10, 2009 2:59 pm

the toucan kid wrote: Dorky, let's call this one a tie. No one likes re-runs.
Fine with me. Maybe Edler and Bieksa will pick it up and it will be less of an issue. The bigger problem we have is not much in the way of good prospects on D.

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Re: Forsberg?

Post by dr.dork » Mon Nov 16, 2009 3:56 pm

The latest on Forsberg (according to Gillis). Recap: he is staying in Sweden (Modo).

http://sports.yahoo.com/nhl/news?slug=a ... &type=lgns

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Re: Forsberg?

Post by Fred » Mon Nov 16, 2009 4:16 pm

dr.dork wrote:
the toucan kid wrote: Dorky, let's call this one a tie. No one likes re-runs.
Fine with me. Maybe Edler and Bieksa will pick it up and it will be less of an issue. The bigger problem we have is not much in the way of good prospects on D.
I think most teams would like to keep their roster with 30% vets/stars, 30% journetmen & 30% prospects. I don't think it's always advisable to either cram to many vets or prospects on to a roster. For instance I think that the Av's have two of their 4 centres (Riley & Duschene ) rookies... and young rookies at that. Not good IMO.

The Nucks have Yann Sauve, Evan Oberg, Kevin Connauton and maybe Peter Andersson from which I would bet they will be happy if one progresses to a NHL regular. I hope Cannauton has some of Don Hayes magic rub off on him, I've watched him twice, he's a gambler, some times too kool, and not outstanding defensively. He's also lanky, not much weight and does not strike me as a top Dub "D"
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Re: Forsberg?

Post by Madcombinepilot » Tue Nov 17, 2009 8:06 am

not to Hijack the thread back to its topic, but Foppa is not coming to the NHL this year...

Looks like he is stayiong in Modo to play with his old buddy Marcus..
http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=298688
Markus Naslund has decided to reunite with former teammate Peter Forsberg in their former club in Modo.
I would say that probably had a lot to do with Foppas decision to end the NHL speculation...
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Re: Forsberg?

Post by the Cunning Linguist » Tue Nov 17, 2009 10:51 am

Best line I've read about Foppa:
Chris18 of OTP wrote:I think it's time Foppa hangs up his skate.
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Re: Forsberg?

Post by Doyle Hargraves » Tue Nov 17, 2009 11:17 am

Mikodat wrote:Toucan said:
Would I offer Willie Mitchell a two year 5 million dollar deal? Sure. Would he take it? duh, likely no.
We've already lost Ohlund . We pay 2 barely competent dmen over 3.5 mill ( Edler and Bieksa ) and Mitchell is not in his mid 30's... age right now is 32... Mitchell is by far our most reliable dman and well worth his present pay .. Maybe a bit more.. Game in . game out he plays against oppositions top lines and ends up with a good plus / minus .. He might sign for 3 years 10 mill... and would be a bargain. Please don't gimme that crap about Holland .. what he says and what he actually does are opposite.. No team is going very far without a good D.. and with Salo probably on his last year and no reliable replacement in sight , Mitchell is all we got left.. ( possible Erhoff as a 2 way dman but without the toughness of Mitchell )..
Your constant bashing of Bieksa and Edler is getting a little old. "Barely competent dmen" . You are joking right. I think most of us realize they have both struggled this season, but unless you lived under a rock last year you would know they were tow of out top three d-men last season. Then again they could both put up numbers and recieve accolades throughout the league and you'd still find something to whine about.
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Re: Forsberg?

Post by LotusBlossom » Tue Nov 17, 2009 11:39 am

Blob Mckenzie wrote:
Mikodat wrote:Toucan said:
Would I offer Willie Mitchell a two year 5 million dollar deal? Sure. Would he take it? duh, likely no.
We've already lost Ohlund . We pay 2 barely competent dmen over 3.5 mill ( Edler and Bieksa ) and Mitchell is not in his mid 30's... age right now is 32... Mitchell is by far our most reliable dman and well worth his present pay .. Maybe a bit more.. Game in . game out he plays against oppositions top lines and ends up with a good plus / minus .. He might sign for 3 years 10 mill... and would be a bargain. Please don't gimme that crap about Holland .. what he says and what he actually does are opposite.. No team is going very far without a good D.. and with Salo probably on his last year and no reliable replacement in sight , Mitchell is all we got left.. ( possible Erhoff as a 2 way dman but without the toughness of Mitchell )..
Your constant bashing of Bieksa and Edler is getting a little old. "Barely competent dmen" . You are joking right. I think most of us realize they have both struggled this season, but unless you lived under a rock last year you would know they were tow of out top three d-men last season. Then again they could both put up numbers and recieve accolades throughout the league and you'd still find something to whine about.
:lol: Blob, but SOB does his job...didn't you know? I wonder how he feels up in the press box? :)

Addition: When did 32 qualify as 'mid 30's?' I thought you had to be at least 34 to be that :P
Last edited by LotusBlossom on Tue Nov 17, 2009 12:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Forsberg?

Post by Tiger » Tue Nov 17, 2009 11:53 am

Toucan Said:
Your constant bashing of Bieksa and Edler is getting a little old. "Barely competent dmen" . You are joking right. I think most of us realize they have both struggled this season, but unless you lived under a rock last year you would know they were tow of out top three d-men last season.
Sorry I thought Mitchell and Ohlund and Salo played last year? and of course I shouldn't have said barely competent. incompetent is more accurate for their play this year....
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