No Sundin this season

Welcome to the main forum of our site. Anything and everything to do with the Vancouver Canucks is dicussed and debated here.

Moderator: Referees

User avatar
the toucan kid
CC Legend
Posts: 3923
Joined: Mon Aug 09, 2004 10:50 am

Re: No Sundin this season

Post by the toucan kid »

It may be dull to you, but last years team was one that missed being a top-10 scoring team by 1 goal.
I'm aware of that, and it was dull. Just personal taste, they don't play the kind of hockey I like.
The Canucks (as most teams) play to their strengths. Recently that has been our goaltending and our defensive depth. I think this season you will see that change. Goaltending will still be a priority, but we'll have better forwards than we've seen in a while. Luongo might have to work harder for his large paycheck, but we should be able to get him some more support at the other end.
Fair enough, but that doesn't make it thrilling. I'm not advising them trying to play a run and gun style with this roster, I just wanted to change the roster (as you know). Why do we have better forwards? We MIGHT have better forwards if several of our young players develop (or hold up), but why are you so convinced? It's a distinct possibility, but we've been through this enough times to know that most of these guys won't keep getting better. Burrows and Kesler can't possibly play any better can they? Can they even keep that up? Hodgson is a kid, he's as sure a thing as there is, but nothing is a given in a rookie season. The other guys are blind bets, who the hell knows? To say the Raymond's, Hanssen's, Grabner's and Bernier's are set for big things isn't reasonable, there's a chance, but just a chance. They aren't better until they actually play better, is what I'm saying. We'll have to see, and that's the only thing (aside from Luongo) that really gives me any new motivation this year. Everything else is same old.

User avatar
Island Nucklehead
MVP
MVP
Posts: 8362
Joined: Wed Sep 07, 2005 2:27 pm
Location: Ottawa

Re: No Sundin this season

Post by Island Nucklehead »

If we're comparing the forwards at from this point last season to now they are most certainly better and deeper.

Samuelson gives us yet another option to play with the Sedins, and effectively replaces Sundin from our PP. In fact, he'll proabably look quite similar to Mats setting up on the half boards/high circle. 5 of Sundins 9 goals were on the PP, Samuelson can easily replace that much. If Burrows doesn't replicate his magic, Samuelson can get some 5 on 5 time.

It's definitely conceivable that Kesler improves his play, he's still young and entering a contract year. You're replacing Pyatt with Hodgson most likely, and I see that as an improvement, even without CoHo playing a game yet. Burrows I'm not so sure of, but some of his goals and moves last year lead me to believe that he is more talented than a third-line plug that clicked with the Sedin's. Definitely not 30-goal talented, but he could hit 20 playing with Kesler.

I'm not predicting an explosion from the likes of Bernier, Raymond or Hansen. But to say they won't be any better might be underestimating these guys a tad, they're still young and have lots of room to improve. For example, if Bernier sticks to his offseason training plan and trims 5 or 10 pounds to increase speed what effect will that have on his game?

The biggest factor to consider is (knock wood) getting a full season out of Luongo. Only Tim Thomas had more wins in the same games, and Luongo's winning percentage would have given him a mid-40 win season last year. A healthy Luongo for an entire year would have put us in the 110 point range. Not saying it's going to happen this year, but something to consider when making expectations.

User avatar
the toucan kid
CC Legend
Posts: 3923
Joined: Mon Aug 09, 2004 10:50 am

Re: No Sundin this season

Post by the toucan kid »

I'm not saying our forward group won't be better Island, but it's impossible to call it better at the moment. Too many unknowns. Samuelsson is a drag and not an asset if he doesn't click with the Sedins. Kesler played like a bat out of hell, there's just no way he CAN be better. Same with Burrows.

Full year from Luongo? So what we might win our division again or finish sixth or ninth based on that, doesn't mean we'll be any better when it matters. He was certainly ready to go down the stretch last year anyway

User avatar
Madcombinepilot
MVP
MVP
Posts: 3687
Joined: Mon Aug 09, 2004 9:54 am
Location: Saskatoon, Sk.

Re: No Sundin this season

Post by Madcombinepilot »

Wow touc. If we are going to suck so bad, have so many players you don't like, and don't play 'a way you like' .... Why do you even watch or post? If I were you, I would go find a tall building, head to the roof, and write the note thàt blames your parents, rap music, and dungeons and dragons. Then jump.

All you do is find new ways to hate our players, hate our Team, and hate our coaches. Take it somewhere else, or find something new to post/complain about. your drivel is getting old.
Last edited by Madcombinepilot on Mon Aug 17, 2009 8:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
The 'Chain of Command' is the chain I am going to beat you with until you understand I am in charge.

User avatar
Island Nucklehead
MVP
MVP
Posts: 8362
Joined: Wed Sep 07, 2005 2:27 pm
Location: Ottawa

Re: No Sundin this season

Post by Island Nucklehead »

the toucan kid wrote:I'm not saying our forward group won't be better Island, but it's impossible to call it better at the moment. Too many unknowns. Samuelsson is a drag and not an asset if he doesn't click with the Sedins. Kesler played like a bat out of hell, there's just no way he CAN be better. Same with Burrows.

Full year from Luongo? So what we might win our division again or finish sixth or ninth based on that, doesn't mean we'll be any better when it matters. He was certainly ready to go down the stretch last year anyway
Some serious self-hate going on there buds. I just outlined the reasons I think this team is better than this point last year. Samuelson is a quality player, with or without the Sedins. At his cap-level, he's another 2nd/3rd line guy, isn't overpaid and if he produces with the Sedin's he's a steal. Gillis is building a team that has depth, there are no Brad Isbister's, Matt Pettinger's, Byron Ritchie's, Jan Bulis' or Jeff Cowan's on this roster. It's entirely conceivable that we have two PPG players anchoring a potent first line, and two lines capable of being a second line on any given night.

Also, to say Kesler cannot get better is pretty silly. He's proven he can be a second line player. He's only turning 25. He only scored 5 more times than the year prior, and his assists went up due to playing with better line-mates (Sundin only scored 9 times so he was obviously dishing to others).

Don't really get your Luongo comment. Are you trying to suggest that having our best player in the lineup for an extra 20 games won't help our cause?

User avatar
DonCherry4PM
MVP
MVP
Posts: 1442
Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2005 10:27 pm

Re: No Sundin this season

Post by DonCherry4PM »

MCP: easy on the haterade. As much as I disagree with Touc at times, he does add interesting dialogue and a different perspective. If the only opinions allowed on the board are those of unmitigated optimism, I think it would get a little droll.

Touc: I would tend to agree that this isn't the most exciting team, but not sure that our forward situation is now necessarily worse than last year. Not saying we are going to be better in that position, but there is potential. (see below)

Island:

A little bit of rough math:

Samuelson with 81 games and ATOI of 15:22 had 19 goals 21 assists for 40 pts.
Samuelson with 81 games and ATOI of 17:00 would project to 21 goals and 23 assists for a total of 44 points.

Sundin with 41 games and ATOI of 16:51 had 9 goals 19 assists for 28 pts.
Sundin with 82 games and ATOI of 16:51 would project to 18 goals 38 assists for a total of 56 points

Now I realize that is a very simplistic look at it without looking at powerplay time etc. But strictly by ATOI it would seem that Sundin was the better option (not that he was an option this year). Maybe Samuelson can fill the void, maybe he will click with the Sedins and play like a bat out of hell, maybe Kesler and Demitra and Burrows will all click and form a scoring rather than shutdown line.

To a large extent I think the team's success hinges on the production of Kesler, Burrows and Samuelson. Kesler and Burrows each had peaks in play last year and showed some great spark. I am not yet convinced that both of them will equal their play of last season, let alone surpass it. I think we NEED them to at minimum do the former for this team to see its forwards produce up to par with last year.

With specific regard to Kesler, I don't think he is going to tail off that much, but I think it would be somewhat remiss to fail to admit that some of his success this past year was due to his playing with an, admittedly reduced, Sundin. I hope that his jump doesn't take a step back in not having Sundin there anymore. Another factor is that, IMO Kesler is a better player on the wing rather than centre, and pushing him back to regularly playing that position could potentially take him back a bit. Long and short, I would love to see Kesler continue to progress, but I am not sure that we will see much of a jump from him this year, if not a little step back.

Burrows play this past year was nothing short of amazing. He definitely pulled the cat out of the bag. I am hopeful, but not yet convinced, that he can regularly/year-to-year pull off that kind of success. I am pretty sure that were he to be demoted from the Sedin line, we would see a drop in production.

On the more positive side, I do think that both Bernier and Raymond will make some improvement over their play last. not sure how much, but any improvement would be beneficial.

Luongo will be Luongo, which is always a confidence builder.

Defense could be a problem, if we don't see something happen in reaction to the loss of Ohlund. I still think his contribution to the team was quite underrated. We'll see.
Invincibility lies in oneself.
Vincibility lies in the enemy.

- Sun Tzu

User avatar
Island Nucklehead
MVP
MVP
Posts: 8362
Joined: Wed Sep 07, 2005 2:27 pm
Location: Ottawa

Re: No Sundin this season

Post by Island Nucklehead »

DCPM:

I don't think I was necessarily saying that Samuelson will replace all aspects of Sundin's game. I think Mats brought some success to that second line, but it was certainly a symbiotic relationship. Kesler fed of Sundin, and vice versa. The only point I was trying to make was that at his cap-hit, if he can click with the Sedin's on the PP and provide quality minutes on either second or third line he's a good addition.

I agree with your assessment of both Burrows and Kesler. Again, I was referring to Toucan's apparent certainty that Kesler couldn't possibly be better. There is no way to tell, but the guy is just entering his prime and has shown improvement in every season (save for 06-07 when he only had 48 games). To suggest he couldn't possibly improve on 26 goals (after scoring 21 the season prior) is a bit much. I'm by no means saying he will be better, but there is a possibility that he might. Burrows will have a tougher time replicating his success than Kesler will, imo. But an entire season with the Sedins (assuming Samuelson doesn't supplant him) and he could very well hit 30+ goals.

I think Bernier is set for a big season. He will be a true test of the Gillis off-season training/diet plan and I think he'll form part of a great line with Hodgson/Wellwood and Raymond. If Bernier improves, that will take some of the heat from guys like Kesler and Burrows to replicate their last-season successes. I could definitely see Raymond move to Bernier-esque numbers of 15G/30Pts, and Bernier taking another step and potting 20 goals.

I guess the biggest thing is my complete disagreement with the assertion that this years' forward corps will be worse than last year. Barring injury I just don't see it. This group has the depth and talent level that we haven't seen showing up to a Canucks training camp in years.

User avatar
the toucan kid
CC Legend
Posts: 3923
Joined: Mon Aug 09, 2004 10:50 am

Re: No Sundin this season

Post by the toucan kid »

Wow touc. If we are going to suck so bad, have so many players you don't like, and don't play 'a way you like' .... Why do you even watch or post? If I were you, I would go find a tall building, head to the roof, and write the note thàt blames your parents, rap music, and dungeons and dragons. Then jump.

All you do is find new ways to hate our players, hate our Team, and hate our coaches. Take it somewhere else, or find something new to post/complain about. your drivel is getting old.
That's really uncalled for, I almost mind a little... :lol:

I think what annoys me is that Madcombine accused me of being a whinny prima donna when he in fact created a post that is a pure misrepresentation of what I said. If you're going to lampoon someone, at least make sure you understand the post first. If you read what I wrote, you can't possibly term your post as fair. And as always, if that's too much to ask, you don't have to read a single thing I post. After that display I'll probably be taking that approach with you. I don't think I've ever put a post on this board as embarrassing to it as that one.

I'm not even sure where I'm being all that negative. Luongo being healthy in the regular season, basically, means we might finish higher in the standings. Island says that's the biggest reason we'll be better, but are we going to win the conference because of it? That's a pretty smiley prediction. He WAS ready for the playoffs so I'm just not sure how that makes us a better team where it counts.

I was actually praising Kes and Bur to all hell. I love the two of them, think they were are best skaters and they excelled in every way. What I meant is that it's impossible to expect more out of them, they've given it all already. Where does Kesler have to go, okay he might score a few more goals, but they're great as they are.

I'm not saying our forward group IS worse, just that when you're depending on a wide array of unknowns it MAY be worse. I also said it MAY be better, but we don't know, so I don't see Island's inference that they WILL be better as valid. Hopefully that clears it up, because I don't think you guys were responding on the right premise.

I haven't bashed our coaches, I actually bothered to state I'm not blaming them for the style they're playing with the roster that we have. I would too, but I just find it dull, if you don't find sitting on a 1-0 lead in the early second period where players like Kesler and Burrows aren't even allowed to forecheck a little dull, then I don't know what to tell you? That just isn't the best the game has to offer. I even went out of my way to not make a big deal of it by stating it's just personal taste.

Does that clear it up?
Some serious self-hate going on there buds. I just outlined the reasons I think this team is better than this point last year. Samuelson is a quality player, with or without the Sedins. At his cap-level, he's another 2nd/3rd line guy, isn't overpaid and if he produces with the Sedin's he's a steal. Gillis is building a team that has depth, there are no Brad Isbister's, Matt Pettinger's, Byron Ritchie's, Jan Bulis' or Jeff Cowan's on this roster. It's entirely conceivable that we have two PPG players anchoring a potent first line, and two lines capable of being a second line on any given night.
Yeah well, woe is me. Samuelson is in every way quite potentially a Pyatt in the making. If he does click with the Sedins (let me do this one more time - AS I SAID) he will be a great help. If he doesn't he's another guy whose getting old, didn't score 20 last year on a much better team and will be playing a defensive system with less than stellar offensive players. It's conceivable that we have three scoring lines, but is it really likely? We didn't have even two most of last year before Mats showed up and all the guys you're referring to are just not sure things right now. I like them as prospects, think some of them will be very good eventually, and MAY break out this year, but it's not the most likely scenario that everything goes our way. MG has created a deeper team, I have no quibbles with that. But the guys you listed were third fourth liners, is that really what you want to draw on as our best hope, a better bottom six?
Also, to say Kesler cannot get better is pretty silly. He's proven he can be a second line player. He's only turning 25. He only scored 5 more times than the year prior, and his assists went up due to playing with better line-mates (Sundin only scored 9 times so he was obviously dishing to others).
Unless you think Kesler is a 40 goal guy, we're not really arguing. He might bump up the totals (tough with the players he has, I digress), but I think he's a great package in all areas of the game as is. Where is the room for improvement?
Don't really get your Luongo comment. Are you trying to suggest that having our best player in the lineup for an extra 20 games won't help our cause?
We won the division with him out for a chunk of the year, we won't finish 1st or 2nd in the conference, so how can we really get better? He was there and more well rested then he ordinarily will be (maybe that's not a good thing?) for the playoffs. So I'm not sure the tangeable impact of him playing 15 more games will be. That said I'm certainly not saying that having him around won't be the difference between finishing 5th or 10th. Just one more time now (all together now) AS I SAID already.

User avatar
Grizzly
MVP
MVP
Posts: 900
Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2004 9:35 am
Location: Dawson Creek

Re: No Sundin this season

Post by Grizzly »

ClamRussel wrote:Bringing Sundin back as our no.2 center would have taken alot of the pressure off Hodgson *and* given him a bit of a mentor. ...actually it would have taken some of the load off of Daniel as well. Now we're back to Sedin being our only offensive threat up the middle...moving Kesler back to the middle...and more pressure being mounted on Hodgson's shoulders. Sedin for one more season would have kept Kesler on the wing where he is more effective offensively and been great for Hodgson's development imo....just to play with such a storied vet like Mats could have a great effect on the kid. By moving Kesler back to center it also weakens our depth at wing but I guess thats what Samuelsson's 15 goals will be for.

I'm glad MG isn't going to bend over *again* for Mats to hum & haw his way through yet another off-season while missing camp again. Either sign or don't, then he can move on.
Agreed Clam ... ok to have him back starting in September but the rusty wheels can't start moving in Jan/Feb again.

For sure maybe more pressure on Hodgson's shoulders ... maybe time now that the Sedin's showed the leadership and took on a mentor role. Maybe MG will be looking to deal .... lotsa "maybe's" here ....



Grizz

User avatar
Sid Dithers
CC 1st Team All-Star
Posts: 952
Joined: Mon Feb 21, 2005 8:34 pm
Location: Surrey, B.C.

Re: No Sundin this season

Post by Sid Dithers »

No Sundin? Good. It may have been worth a one-year shot to see how it went, but re-upping him for a second year would be akin to not learning from your mistakes. Give the ice time to young guys. The road to success isn't paved with 38 year-olds.
AraChniD iS stoOpiDz!

dr.dork
CC Hall of Fan Member
Posts: 1771
Joined: Sun Oct 09, 2005 9:13 am
Location: Vancouver

Re: No Sundin this season

Post by dr.dork »

Sid Dithers wrote:No Sundin? Good. It may have been worth a one-year shot to see how it went, but re-upping him for a second year would be akin to not learning from your mistakes. Give the ice time to young guys. The road to success isn't paved with 38 year-olds.
Sundin would have been ok at $2M or so but there is no point in waiting. If he becomes available later AND we have the cap space and it makes sense, then fine. If Hodgson isn't ready and the other young guys are not ready, and/or Wellwood is stinking it up, I would take Sundin back.

Toucan, I don't know how you can say Kesler won't improve. He is young and has improved every year. Burrows too, but you might have a better argument that Burrow's season last year was more of an anomaly. We could have a team as good as last year or even slightly better if all the kids over-perform AND we don't have any injuries. However, even with a healthy Louie we really can't afford any injuries on D or any injuries in the top 6. We could easily miss the playoffs with some bad luck or some bad attitudes creeping in.

User avatar
the toucan kid
CC Legend
Posts: 3923
Joined: Mon Aug 09, 2004 10:50 am

Re: No Sundin this season

Post by the toucan kid »

Toucan, I don't know how you can say Kesler won't improve. He is young and has improved every year. Burrows too, but you might have a better argument that Burrow's season last year was more of an anomaly. We could have a team as good as last year or even slightly better if all the kids over-perform AND we don't have any injuries. However, even with a healthy Louie we really can't afford any injuries on D or any injuries in the top 6. We could easily miss the playoffs with some bad luck or some bad attitudes creeping in.
How does a guy who is arguably the best defensive forward in the game get better? Do you guys see what I'm saying here. He may score a few more goals or a few less, but as a player he's a well rounded machine who is GOOD at everything. I'm not sure where he can improve? Face-offs maybe. He's not a natural sniper or anything so I don't think it's reasonable to expect him at the 40 goal level, but that's not a knock on him. Hopefully I got it across this time.

I'm not sure Burrows is anywhere near the scorer he was last half of last year. I HOPE he is, because I love him as a player and think he's bring a great deal to the table.

These guys are reasons 2 A/B to watch the Canucks in my eyes. I'm actually paying them a compliment.

dr.dork
CC Hall of Fan Member
Posts: 1771
Joined: Sun Oct 09, 2005 9:13 am
Location: Vancouver

Re: No Sundin this season

Post by dr.dork »

the toucan kid wrote:
Toucan, I don't know how you can say Kesler won't improve.
How does a guy who is arguably the best defensive forward in the game get better?
Score more. Get more assists. He doesn't make very many mistakes when he doesn't have the puck so I agree there isn't a huge upside there, but he has consistently improved offensively every year. Has he plateaued offensively ? I would think probably not but of course you might be right.

I'm not suggesting he gets 40 goals. 30 goals and 40 assists would be a fairly big offensive improvement though.

Of course it depends on what he is asked to do. If he plays on the second line the whole year in a more offensive role his numbers will naturally go up. But it is a pretty good bet that he will get better, simply because of his age.

User avatar
the toucan kid
CC Legend
Posts: 3923
Joined: Mon Aug 09, 2004 10:50 am

Re: No Sundin this season

Post by the toucan kid »

I'm not suggesting he gets 40 goals. 30 goals and 40 assists would be a fairly big offensive improvement though.
Well I guess, I sort of see anything in the 5-10 point range as being as much luck (this one bounces the right way instead of the wrong way the year before) as improvement, but sure. If you can score 26 in a season you can score 30 without playing better, just getting more bounces. Okay, I confess Kesler could become a better offensive player. There happy. If he gets what he did last year, I would be perfectly content with the guy though.
Of course it depends on what he is asked to do. If he plays on the second line the whole year in a more offensive role his numbers will naturally go up. But it is a pretty good bet that he will get better, simply because of his age.
Honestly if he plays on the second line we have in the center role, it's quite possible he doesn't have higher stats than last year. If he's a checker, then of course your logic applies in that sense.

User avatar
Tciso
CC Hall of Fan Member
Posts: 1957
Joined: Thu Sep 25, 2008 9:44 am

Re: No Sundin this season

Post by Tciso »

Mikodat wrote:So, now we've lost both our best secondary scoring - Sundin and our best Dman - Ohlund ( playoff stats ).. No adequate replacements in sight.. This years team isn't shaping up to be much of a contender. Another season of " wait till next year? "..
I agree with Ohlund, but I don't think we have lost much with Sundin. He has lost at least a step, and hurt us as much as helped for most of his time here last year. Samuelsson should replace Sundin, and our young 2nd and 3rd line improved quite a bit last year, and will likely get better this year as well. We just need another all-around defenceman to replace Ohlund, which are pretty big shoes to fill.
The Cup is soooooo ours!!!!!!!

Post Reply