The Detroit Machine

[Cornuck]

For all of my life I've cheered for the underdogs, but I have to give credit where it's due.

I still want the Pens to win, but DAMN the Wings are great team. T-E-A-M - they remind of the 1970's Russian teams that showed no emotion but kept coming. (I hate Hossa). The current Wings lineup is ready to keep rolling through the rest of the series - true, the Pens had some bad luck and Osgood could just be the greatest/luckiest/most under-rated goalie ever. But how do you stop these 'terminators'?

With that to consider - the current Canuck lineup would be swept by these guys. How do we start to build a team to beat these guys? Youth? Vets? Talent? Defense? They're leagues ahead of us - and our only hope is that Detroit implodes from the depression and there is a changing of the guard.

They chewed up a team that stomped on us. ARGH!

My only consolation is that we have a GM who seems to want to put money in new places. Maybe this will pan out over 10-20 years...

May god have mercy on us all until then.

[dr.dork]

May god have mercy on us all until then.

Pray that Holland retires and Joe Neiwendyk is hired as GM, fresh off of his NHL player retirement 3 shorts years ago. The problem with Pittsburgh is that they are the Crosby and Malkin show and what a show that is when it is on. But Zetterberg is doing a number on Crosby and then there is Lidstrom and a HOT Osgood and an even HOTTER set of goalposts to deal with.

D'oh, too late.

http://sports.yahoo.com/nhl/news?slug=a ... &type=lgns

Hey, I like Joe, but COME ON. He retired from playing 3 years ago. He will be completely schooled on the business side of hockey by the likes of, um, every other GM (except maybe Garth Snow, which is probably a toss-up).

Back to Detroit-Pittsburgh. It ain't over bu I agree Pittsburgh have been unlucky. They haven't been able to get those goals when they needed them and they haven't made their own luck. (Mental fragility ?? Or is Detroit just an emotionless machine ??).

[Island Nucklehead]

You know you're a good team when your best player (Datsyuk) is out of the lineup and you still win games handedly. They've hardly missed a beat having Zetterberg shadow Crosby. I doubt the Penguins would get any offense at all if Datsyuk was on Crosby, allowing Zetterberg to shadow Malkin.

Detroit is the example that you don't need to suck to make it in this league. They draft well, develop better and their best players are their best players. It helps when you have a Hall of Fame defenseman (or two).

Holland has said repeatedly that one of the biggest keys to their success is they play the exact same system at the AHL level. I'm not sure what the Moose play, but if Gillis is smart he'll get heavily involved with the direction that team is going. Coaching conference calls, pre-season meetings, regular communication throughout the season etc.

I just don't think Pittsburgh is nearly deep enough to handle these guys. Part of that problem is they are reliant on two people. Satan, Sykora, Fedotenko, Dupuis, Guerin and Kunitz just aren't first line players. Putting them with Crosby certainly helps them, but they don't have any Franzen, Filppula etc. to be nearly as impressive as the studs they play with.

It sucks, because I like how Crosby is doing this, but I think that team would be a lot better off to deal Malkin for a serious haul. They could easily get a package that would include a top line winger, a top pairing dman and some depth. Having a $4M third line center isn't really an option in the cap era.

[the toucan kid]

Detroit is not an example, they're an exception. If they could be emulated, they would have been by now. It's either simply they have such a leg up on the competition that they're perpetually ahead or the curve, or they have ungodly luck. They're not something anyone can hope to attain. Sure you can invest in scouting etc. much better than we have, frankly I think this organization has been run quite poorly and has suffered from constant changes in the front office, but for anyone to expect that just through merely proper management a Detroit scenario is possible, well they're just out to lunch.

It sucks, because I like how Crosby is doing this, but I think that team would be a lot better off to deal Malkin for a serious haul. They could easily get a package that would include a top line winger, a top pairing dman and some depth. Having a $4M third line center isn't really an option in the cap era.

Why should they deal Malkin? Should Detroit deal Datsyuk? Having depth is a luxury, but Detroit is the most talented team in the league, that's why they win. There's no package likely to be available that equalizes Malkin's impact. Can they beat Detroit? Probably not, but NO ONE can. Pittsburgh has mopped up it's conference twice in a row, shows they're a great squad, just that Detroit is something exceptional. Losing Malkin for two or three lesser players, doesn't ensure beating Detroit any more than having him would, so I don't get it. Having a 4 million dollar third line center is definitely an option if he's Jordan Staal.

[dr.dork]

Why should they deal Malkin?

Are you better off with one $8.7M dollar player and two $0.5M linemates or a $3.2 x 3 line ? It is highly debatable, but a very good checker at $1.5M can neutralize said $8+ million dollar player, so you need some sort of balance. Pittsburgh is unbalanced. Shutdown Malkin and Crosby (not easy) and you have them.

If I was Pittsburgh I would think seriously about trading Crosby or Malkin. It depends what you get back, but obviously it would be a case of quantity for quality.

[Island Nucklehead]

It actually gets worse for the Penguins moving forward, as Malkin's $8.7M extension doesn't kick in til after this year. Bye bye $5M in space, and nearly $7M if you factor in Staals extension.

Touc you've said all along that the Sedins are a value and their current deal, but will only weigh the team down going forward. Well the Pens are most certainly in line with such an argument.

If this years' Penguins team cannot pull through, how will they do when they have even less cap room (familiar Toucan? ). Can Crosby or Malkin put up even bigger numbers in the future, it's incredibly debatable. Next year they have $25M tied up in Crosby, Malkin, Staal and Kunitz. That's nearly half the cap folks. Factor in guys like Fleury and Gonchar (10.75M) and you start to see the makings of a cap nightmare.

The fact is nobody on Detroit makes $8.7M, nobody even makes $7.5M. That's the difference between getting a depth guy like Sykora ($2.5M) and key contributor like Franzen (ext. 3.955). Zetterberg will be making 2.5M less than either Crosby or Malkin. Datsyuk isn't even playing... without Crosby/Malkin Pittsburgh is finished in round 2. Depth is certainly key to Detroit's success, and it's looking to be Pittsburgh's downfall.

You could make an argument for Crosby allowing Malkin to put up his numbers. And with the haul you could get for such a superstar, you could completely solidify another area of your lineup. Imagine what LA would give for Malkin, or how would Shea Weber look in Pittsburgh?

[the toucan kid]

Gents, let me put it this way - Crosby, Malkin, Staal, Gonchar and Fleury and maybe one good bargain signing a year = Stanley Cup contender every season. Now, granted, injuries may prevent them from getting there, and Gonchar will have to be replaced not so far down the road, but they have elite players at all the pivotal positions. Sure, they don't have a top end shutdown defenseman, but that CAN be done (and well) by committee. It should also be mentioned that the Wings core are in their primes, the young Pens still have another 2-3 years 'til they can be considered fully developed. Those pillars are good for the next 10+ years, it's an astoundingly good setup.

If this years' Penguins team cannot pull through, how will they do when they have even less cap room (familiar Toucan? ). Can Crosby or Malkin put up even bigger numbers in the future, it's incredibly debatable. Next year they have $25M tied up in Crosby, Malkin, Staal and Kunitz. That's nearly half the cap folks. Factor in guys like Fleury and Gonchar (10.75M) and you start to see the makings of a cap nightmare.

They don't have to put up bigger numbers, that's the thing. They have ample production to get all the way as constituted. And frankly, they burned through the conference this year with what I would consider a fairly thin lineup aside from the pillars. Can you honestly say that the likes of Satan, Sykora, Cooke etc. aren't bargain bin pick ups? Guerin might be a little more than that, but a player of his stature moves every year.

If you have true, bonafide, elite players at the pivotal positions, in a cap world where depth is impossible, you're in great shape. We don't; we have average top end forwards, average defensemen, and a superb goalie. I think you guys are NUTS believing Pittsburgh is in cap trouble. With their touchstones locked up, they're one of the more secure clubs in the league, not unlike Detroit in many ways. If they get anything from their system at all they're golden. If Malkin was unsigned or Fleury and they were pressed to the cap, then I might concur with you, but no way with them all signed up long term. They have their guys locked up that got them to two straight cup finals, we don't for our guys that got us... uh (occasionally) to the playoffs.

Are you better off with one $8.7M dollar player and two $0.5M linemates or a $3.2 x 3 line ? It is highly debatable, but a very good checker at $1.5M can neutralize said $8+ million dollar player, so you need some sort of balance. Pittsburgh is unbalanced. Shutdown Malkin and Crosby (not easy) and you have them.

Well Datsyuk and Zetterberg are about 14 million dollar checkers, so I'm not sure where that comes from. Seems to me they ripped up a lot of teams with elite checkers like Richards and Brindamour (admittedly not what he once was). I doubt very much that they need to fill both wing slots with half a million dollar guys. Staal can be moved up if need be, but surely each guy can be afforded a decent 2 million-ish winger. Shut down Malkin and Crosby and you have them? Well duh, shut down Toews and Kane, Ovechkin and Backstrom, or Sedin and Sedin and you probably have all those teams too. The only team that could overcome their best two players being shut down is Detroit, but they have an embarrassment of riches.

[Island Nucklehead]

Gents, let me put it this way - Crosby, Malkin, Staal, Gonchar and Fleury and maybe one good bargain signing a year = Stanley Cup contender every season. Now, granted, injuries may prevent them from getting there, and Gonchar will have to be replaced not so far down the road, but they have elite players at all the pivotal positions. Sure, they don't have a top end shutdown defenseman, but that CAN be done (and well) by committee. It should also be mentioned that the Wings core are in their primes, the young Pens still have another 2-3 years 'til they can be considered fully developed. Those pillars are good for the next 10+ years, it's an astoundingly good setup.

They have two elite centres. Fleury has been outplayed BADLY by Osgood thus far, and Gonchar is nearing the end of his rope. Detroit has 3 STUD forwards (and I would say Franzen makes it four), the best defender in the league and a stupid amount of depth to go along with a goalie that is probably going to win the Conn Smythe.

They don't have to put up bigger numbers, that's the thing. They have ample production to get all the way as constituted. And frankly, they burned through the conference this year with what I would consider a fairly thin lineup aside from the pillars. Can you honestly say that the likes of Satan, Sykora, Cooke etc. aren't bargain bin pick ups? Guerin might be a little more than that, but a player of his stature moves every year.

Sure, as constituted. But you won't be able to get Satan, Sykora or Fedotenko back because of what you've given to Staal and Malkin as extensions. IF the cap stays at 56M for next season, they have less than 10M for about 10 players, and that's going to have to fill probably 3 top 6 forward spots, a top 4 defensman and a backup goalie on top of your usual minimum wagers... Without Guerin, Sykora or Fedotenko they're looking at losing more than 60 goals.

If you have true, bonafide, elite players at the pivotal positions, in a cap world where depth is impossible, you're in great shape. We don't; we have average top end forwards, average defensemen, and a superb goalie. I think you guys are NUTS believing Pittsburgh is in cap trouble. With their touchstones locked up, they're one of the more secure clubs in the league, not unlike Detroit in many ways. If they get anything from their system at all they're golden. If Malkin was unsigned or Fleury and they were pressed to the cap, then I might concur with you, but no way with them all signed up long term. They have their guys locked up that got them to two straight cup finals, we don't for our guys that got us... uh (occasionally) to the playoffs.

Again, they have two superstar centers. Granted that's two more than we have, but aside from Gonchar they're pretty thin elsewhere. Fleury doesn't rank in the top 20 of either GAA or Save%, and again, he hasn't been strong. By trading a guy like Malkin, they certainly could get at minimum a top-pairing defenceman, and a top-line winger for Sid in any massive package.

Well Datsyuk and Zetterberg are about 14 million dollar checkers, so I'm not sure where that comes from. Seems to me they ripped up a lot of teams with elite checkers like Richards and Brindamour (admittedly not what he once was). I doubt very much that they need to fill both wing slots with half a million dollar guys. Staal can be moved up if need be, but surely each guy can be afforded a decent 2 million-ish winger. Shut down Malkin and Crosby and you have them? Well duh, shut down Toews and Kane, Ovechkin and Backstrom, or Sedin and Sedin and you probably have all those teams too. The only team that could overcome their best two players being shut down is Detroit, but they have an embarrassment of riches.

Datsyuk isn't even playing, and Zetterberg would win a Selke if he played like has against Crosby this series.

There is very little chance Crosby and Malkin can play any better than they have during this post-season run. Next season they'll have even less help. Sure, they have two of the three top scorers from this season, but next year they'll also have two out of the three top salaries.

[the toucan kid]

They have two elite centres. Fleury has been outplayed BADLY by Osgood thus far, and Gonchar is nearing the end of his rope. Detroit has 3 STUD forwards (and I would say Franzen makes it four), the best defender in the league and a stupid amount of depth to go along with a goalie that is probably going to win the Conn Smythe.

I'm not really talking about the series on-going, although to Fleury hasn't been bad beside one goal. Detroit is a better team, but I already said that.

Sure, as constituted. But you won't be able to get Satan, Sykora or Fedotenko back because of what you've given to Staal and Malkin as extensions. IF the cap stays at 56M for next season, they have less than 10M for about 10 players, and that's going to have to fill probably 3 top 6 forward spots, a top 4 defensman and a backup goalie on top of your usual minimum wagers... Without Guerin, Sykora or Fedotenko they're looking at losing more than 60 goals.

60 goals spread amongst 3-4 players... not that big a a deal to replace, nor do they necessarily need to in order to be right back where they are next year. Take two of the three forwards out of the lineup and they would still be where they are.

Again, they have two superstar centers. Granted that's two more than we have, but aside from Gonchar they're pretty thin elsewhere. Fleury doesn't rank in the top 20 of either GAA or Save%, and again, he hasn't been strong. By trading a guy like Malkin, they certainly could get at minimum a top-pairing defenceman, and a top-line winger for Sid in any massive package.

Not sure that makes them a better team actually. You wouldn't get an elite winger and an elite defender, but probably a good one of each. Crosby in an off year gets 100+ points with guys who probably aren't top 6 forwards, would he get 150+ with an elite winger? I sort of doubt it, just not the way the game works these days. You're much better having the two best forwards in the sport firing on two separate lines.

Datsyuk isn't even playing, and Zetterberg would win a Selke if he played like has against Crosby this series.

There is very little chance Crosby and Malkin can play any better than they have during this post-season run. Next season they'll have even less help. Sure, they have two of the three top scorers from this season, but next year they'll also have two out of the three top salaries.

Understood about Datsyuk, all I meant with that is that dork's point about a 1.5 million dollar checker being able to stop Malkin is pretty flimsy.

If Crosby and Malkin play like they have in the post-season for an entire season, the Penguins will win the East by a mile and a half. They won't but is Crosby capable of putting up a 120 points with marginal talent? Yes. They don't have much help now, they don't need it, they're game breakers. I think perhaps us in Vancouver not having any of them in such a long time has made us forget what that's about (unless they're wearing pads and mask).

If I'm getting the top two scorers in the league, I have no problem giving them the top 2 salaries. Especially when they're now proven playoff producers.

You're also, I think ignoring the huge upside that Staal still possesses. Alas, I'm not even sure what your point is here. Do you or don't you think they can get back to the Cup finals (in the East) which automatically gives them a chance to win, with Malkin, Crosby, Staal, Gonchar and Fleury? You just don't need much else.

[dr.dork]

Understood about Datsyuk, all I meant with that is that dork's point about a 1.5 million dollar checker being able to stop Malkin is pretty flimsy.

It isn't flimsy at all. What does Kesler make ? Kesler would likely do a good job at neutralizing Malkin or Crosby.

Btw, Datsyuk + Zetterberg add up to $12.8 (cap hit) vs $17.4 for Crosby+Malkin. That is an extra $4.6M that Detroit can spend on depth. Plus Datsyuk and Zetterberg can score. (They're not being paid for their checking role, although they and everyone else on Detroit can do that exceptionally well).

The proof is in the pudding and to some extent I agree with you. Top heavy Pittsburgh has made it to the cup finals twice. However, it is unsustainable. They cannot (forever) continue to shed young talent at the trade deadline. They are shedding talent faster than they are acquiring it. It isn't a sustainable model. Detroit has a sustainable model. Sooner or later Pittsburgh won't be able to shed talent at the trade deadline, and they surely won't be able to go the FA route. Then what ??

[the toucan kid]

It isn't flimsy at all. What does Kesler make ? Kesler would likely do a good job at neutralizing Malkin or Crosby.

Okay, but what is he worth on the market, 4 or 5 million? And I'm not sure he could do it without Luongo behind him. Which is to say, I'm not sure anyone could without an overwhelming goaltender or team. And what do you mean they're not being paid for their checking role? Not being paid to check, but it certainly puts a premium on their services.

Btw, Datsyuk + Zetterberg add up to $12.8 (cap hit) vs $17.4 for Crosby+Malkin. That is an extra $4.6M that Detroit can spend on depth. Plus Datsyuk and Zetterberg can score. (They're not being paid for their checking role, although they and everyone else on Detroit can do that exceptionally well).

I wasn't comparing the two. Just that the 1.5 million dollar checker thing was a bit much. I'm not sure who I would take between the two sets, both are enviable that's for sure. However, Malkin and Crosby are a good deal younger, and not yet in their prime.

However, it is unsustainable. They cannot (forever) continue to shed young talent at the trade deadline. They are shedding talent faster than they are acquiring it. It isn't a sustainable model. Detroit has a sustainable model. Sooner or later Pittsburgh won't be able to shed talent at the trade deadline, and they surely won't be able to go the FA route. Then what ??

Did they really shed any young talent this year? I thought they actually gained it with a very interesting prospect in Tangradi, and Kunitz working out. They don't really have to shed talent, except when it gets too expensive on their own roster, which can then be retooled ala the VERY shrewd Whitney move. They have two or three very interesting young d-men who are suited to the style. You guys are assuming unusual ineptness from their system, even if they get some good depth players, they'll be fine. As in more than fine, contenders in fact.

[DavidPratt_]

THE GOLDEN RULE IN PROFESSIONAL SPORTS IS…
“WINNING MAKES EVERYTHING RIGHT”…
CHRIS OSGOOD OF THE DETROIT RED WINGS IS PROOF OF THAT…
OSGOOD IS NOW JUST 2 WINS AWAY FROM HIS 4TH STANLEY CUP…
HIS RECORD IN THE PLAYOFFS IS 14-4…WITH A…GOALS-AGAINST-AVERAGE OF JUST 1.95…
AS A RESULT…THE HEAD LINE IN THE VANCOUVER SUN TODAY…REFERED TO HIM AS…
“THE WIZARD OF OZ”…
CAM COLE NOT ONLY HAS OSGOOD WINNING…THE CONN SMYTHE…GOING INTO THE HOCKEY HALL OF THE FAME…AND MAKING TEAM CANADA…
THE HEADLINE IN THE GLOBE AND MAIL USED THE WORD…
“REDEMPTION”
ERIC DUHATCHEK POINTED TO HIS “73” PLAYOFF WINS…
AND REMINDED US THAT ONLY 6 GOALTENDERS IN HISTORY HAVE MORE…
PATRICK ROY…MARTIN BRODUER…GRANT FUHR…ED BELFOUR…BILLY SMITH AND KEN DRYDEN…
THERE WAS ANOTHER PITCH TO GET HIM INTO THE HALL OF FAME…
WHAT MAKES THIS STORY SO AMAZING…IS THE ROAD CHRIS OSGOOD TOOK TO GET HERE…
IN FEBRUARY DETROIT GENERAL MANAGER KEN HOLLAND WAS SO DISSAPPOINTED IN THE PLAY OF OSGOOD…
HE SENT HIM HOME…IN THE HOPE THAT OSGOOD WOULD FIND HIS GAME…
HEADING INTO THE PLAYOFFS…HIS GOALS AGAINST AVERAGE WAS 3.09…
40TH IN THE NHL…
NOBODY…NOT EVEN THE WINGS…KNEW IF OSGOOD STILL HAD ANYTHING LEFT IN THE TANK…
NOW SHOULD DETROIT GO ONTO WIN THE CUP…
OSGOOD IS A LOCK FOR THE CONN SMYTHE…
AND WITH THAT ON HIS RESUME…THE HALL OF FAME SHOULD NOT BE OUT OF HIS REACH…
BUT TEAM CANADA???...
KIDS…GIVE YOUR HEAD A SHAKE…
THERE’S A REASON WHY OSGOOD MAKES A MERE $1.7 MILLION A SEASON…
YES…HE HAS BEEN THE BEST “FEEL GOOD” STORY OF THE PLAYOFFS…
SO ENJOY IT…WRITE ABOUT IT…BATHE IN IT…TELL YOUR GRAND CHILDREN ABOUT IT…
BUT TRUST ME…WHEN IT COMES TIME FOR STEVE YZERMAN TO PICK TEAM CANADA…
THE GOLDEN RULE WILL APPLY…
AND NOBODY KNOWS THAT BETTER THAN CHRIS OSGOOD…

DP

[JCardinal]

With that to consider - the current Canuck lineup would be swept by these guys. How do we start to build a team to beat these guys? Youth? Vets? Talent? Defense? They're leagues ahead of us - and our only hope is that Detroit implodes from the depression and there is a changing of the guard.

Wow it's like you're reading my mind, I was thinking the exact same thing watching them against Chicago, particular the elimination game. No way can Vancouver match that level of effort.

I've been thinking about it a lot while watching them lately, trying to analyze what I see and what really makes them different and I think there is *no* magic secret about them at all, they simply are willing as a team to work and compete harder than the other team.

What we need to do is get players willing to compete and work that hard consistently and I think that's exactly what Gillis is after when he says "leadership" all the time. Nearly always the first word out of his mouth when asked to describe what he's after or what he likes about a prospect is leadership. I think what it really means is a guy willing to bust his balls to win.

The difference in the modern NHL between the elite players and the so so guys seems in most every case with few exceptions to boil down to simple hard work and compete level. Watch Crosby or Malkin when they aren't trying their hardest and they look just like every other average player out there.

Hockey players are like any other group of people, there are go getter types and slacker types and middle of the road types, skill-wise I suspect there is very little to choose between most players, it's how hard you want it, how hard you're willing to play, to practice to diet to do what it takes. For the vast majority it's just a job, for the superstars it's a calling.

If you watch the Wings carefully when they are doing really well you won't see anything that any other bunch of players couldn't do as well, it's all down to hard work. They work hard and stick to all the fundamentals like glue.

Here's how Vancouver can do it now, ditch any expensive players, replace them with average to good players, bring in the world's best hypnotist, and hypnotize the entire team into playing like their life depended on it every shift and you'd have instant Red Wings.

[the toucan kid]

Wow this is getting out of hand. They're good because they have an ungodly number of great players. They're not going to monopolize the Cup for eternity or anything. We've seen superpowers before, our job is to do what they do, get the best possible players. They found a couple of centers that are both top 10 forwards in the league in the latter rounds of the draft. It's pretty fricken miraculous if you ask me, too much so for me to lay the credit down as anything but GREAT fortune.

Talent wins championships, gee gosh.

[Arbour]

While I agree that there is a certain amount of "good luck" involved in the Detroit model, the latter is generated by good management, with deliberate calculation far out weighing any arbitrary decision making process. Over the last eleven years Detroit has managed no less than four Stanley cups with the possibility of a fifth looming large. Given the modern day climate of salary caps and free agency that in itself is no mean feat.

Whether Vancouver can emulate such success remains to be seen, but one thing is clear such consistency won't be achieved in the short term. Absent young super stars such as Malkin and Crosby, Vancouver would do well to change its direction now and attempt to get younger and faster concentrating on balance and depth, which may mean that the logistical limitations created by the resigning of certain UFA's, whose presence may guarantee a playoff berth but not a trip to the finals, become a luxury that the team cannot afford.