Hodgson, Edler, 1st rounder for a top notch CENTER.......???

Welcome to the main forum of our site. Anything and everything to do with the Vancouver Canucks is dicussed and debated here.

Moderator: Referees

dr.dork
CC Hall of Fan Member
Posts: 1771
Joined: Sun Oct 09, 2005 9:13 am
Location: Vancouver

Re: Hodgson, Edler, 1st rounder for a top notch CENTER.......???

Post by dr.dork »

Farhan Lalji wrote: Kesler and Burrows could be EXCELLENT 3rd liners instead of being "good" 2nd liners.
Look, dude, you're the one that got into AVs brain and told him to put Burrows with the twins. Furthermore, those two (and any other flunky) probably could have/would have shut down Kane and Toews. We would have then made it to the third round. So before I start a thread that says "We LoSt to ChiTOwN because of FARhAN .... !!!!?????" admit your guilt. Then we can discuss Burrows and Kesler on the 3rd line. (By the way, AV did try Sundin with the Sedins in the Chicago series).

Actually, I'm not sure where you put Kesler and Hodgson (or Johnson for that matter) if you get Vinny. Oh yeah, you lose Hodgson and gain $10M (or lose $10M in cap space, depending on how you think of it).

I know you are too lazy to go to nhlnumbers.com, but it might be an idea to go there, add up two or three numbers and come to the realization that fitting the Sedins, Vinnie, Luongo, and Kesler (4 out of 5 with new unknown contracts) doesn't fit within the current cap never mind a future declining cap.

It is a wacky idea. The inverse, trading veterans (if we had tradeable veterans) for cap space and prospects makes more sense at this point.

dr.dork
CC Hall of Fan Member
Posts: 1771
Joined: Sun Oct 09, 2005 9:13 am
Location: Vancouver

Re: Hodgson, Edler, 1st rounder for a top notch CENTER.......???

Post by dr.dork »

Sid Dithers wrote: Better, yes. Good enough to take out Detroit? Not a chance. You can always do things to make yourself better RIGHT NOW. But at what price? If you want to be a team that routinely has a chance to win every year (like Detroit), you can't be swinging for the fence too often. The Wings rarely do, yet are in the hunt every spring. That's the kind of team I aspire to be, not some one-shot roman candle who is up the creek if they sell the farm and flame out.
Bingo. When you swing for the fences, you normally strike out. When you try to make solid contact, sometimes you hit a home run.

Not sure I like these reference to Hawerchuk. First, Hawerchuk was a great great player, and Hodgson is unlikely to attain that and it is a lot of pressure (we wouldn't want to put too much pressure on him too early and have him become "mentally fragile"). Second, in his heyday, Hawerchuk didn't come close to a cup.

Edler is also a good young player. Still very young for a defenceman, and may turn into something we wouldn't want to lose.

User avatar
Sid Dithers
CC 1st Team All-Star
Posts: 952
Joined: Mon Feb 21, 2005 8:34 pm
Location: Surrey, B.C.

Re: Hodgson, Edler, 1st rounder for a top notch CENTER.......???

Post by Sid Dithers »

dr.dork wrote:
Sid Dithers wrote: Better, yes. Good enough to take out Detroit? Not a chance. You can always do things to make yourself better RIGHT NOW. But at what price? If you want to be a team that routinely has a chance to win every year (like Detroit), you can't be swinging for the fence too often. The Wings rarely do, yet are in the hunt every spring. That's the kind of team I aspire to be, not some one-shot roman candle who is up the creek if they sell the farm and flame out.
Bingo. When you swing for the fences, you normally strike out. When you try to make solid contact, sometimes you hit a home run.

Not sure I like these reference to Hawerchuk. First, Hawerchuk was a great great player, and Hodgson is unlikely to attain that and it is a lot of pressure (we wouldn't want to put too much pressure on him too early and have him become "mentally fragile"). Second, in his heyday, Hawerchuk didn't come close to a cup.
It kind of irks me when people just can't wait to throw a label and expectations on a 19 year old kid. All I hope for is this:

1. He comes to camp next season ready to make the team.
2. People back off from these expectations of him being a second-line player who needs to score x goals and x points.
3. I hope he makes the team and is slated to play on the third line. No need to pressure a kid by playing him on the top two lines. The fourth line isn't a good option, because playing 6 minutes a night alongside Ryan Johnson and Hordichuk isn't the answer either. Just put him in a place where he can succeed at his own pace. If he's cut out for more than that, we'll soon know it. I just want to see him turn into whatever kind of player he's going to be. Trying to sculpt a kid like that into some other person is idiocy. Let's have him suit up and see what he can do. There's no reason to think he won't be a very good player early in his career, but he needs to develop on his own timetable, not Dale Hawerchuk's or anyone else's. That stuff drives me crazy.
AraChniD iS stoOpiDz!

dr.dork
CC Hall of Fan Member
Posts: 1771
Joined: Sun Oct 09, 2005 9:13 am
Location: Vancouver

Re: Hodgson, Edler, 1st rounder for a top notch CENTER.......???

Post by dr.dork »

Sid Dithers wrote: It kind of irks me when people just can't wait to throw a label and expectations on a 19 year old kid. All I hope for is this:

1. He comes to camp next season ready to make the team.
2. People back off from these expectations of him being a second-line player who needs to score x goals and x points.
3. I hope he makes the team and is slated to play on the third line. No need to pressure a kid by playing him on the top two lines. The fourth line isn't a good option, because playing 6 minutes a night alongside Ryan Johnson and Hordichuk isn't the answer either. Just put him in a place where he can succeed at his own pace. If he's cut out for more than that, we'll soon know it. I just want to see him turn into whatever kind of player he's going to be. Trying to sculpt a kid like that into some other person is idiocy. Let's have him suit up and see what he can do. There's no reason to think he won't be a very good player early in his career, but he needs to develop on his own timetable, not Dale Hawerchuk's or anyone else's. That stuff drives me crazy.
4. (A variation on 3), no marketing campaigns around Hodgson (Seen Stamkos ?, and the stupid expectations placed on him).
5. No comparisons to Tavares or any other rookies.
6. He continues to work on his skating and development in the summer. (Work, not overwork).

My guess is 1, 4 and 6 will be true, 2, 3, 5 will be false. He will be penciled in to play on the 3rd line but if he is outplayed he will (correctly) be returned to junior.

User avatar
Sid Dithers
CC 1st Team All-Star
Posts: 952
Joined: Mon Feb 21, 2005 8:34 pm
Location: Surrey, B.C.

Re: Hodgson, Edler, 1st rounder for a top notch CENTER.......???

Post by Sid Dithers »

dr.dork wrote:
Sid Dithers wrote: It kind of irks me when people just can't wait to throw a label and expectations on a 19 year old kid. All I hope for is this:

1. He comes to camp next season ready to make the team.
2. People back off from these expectations of him being a second-line player who needs to score x goals and x points.
3. I hope he makes the team and is slated to play on the third line. No need to pressure a kid by playing him on the top two lines. The fourth line isn't a good option, because playing 6 minutes a night alongside Ryan Johnson and Hordichuk isn't the answer either. Just put him in a place where he can succeed at his own pace. If he's cut out for more than that, we'll soon know it. I just want to see him turn into whatever kind of player he's going to be. Trying to sculpt a kid like that into some other person is idiocy. Let's have him suit up and see what he can do. There's no reason to think he won't be a very good player early in his career, but he needs to develop on his own timetable, not Dale Hawerchuk's or anyone else's. That stuff drives me crazy.
4. (A variation on 3), no marketing campaigns around Hodgson (Seen Stamkos ?, and the stupid expectations placed on him).
5. No comparisons to Tavares or any other rookies.
6. He continues to work on his skating and development in the summer. (Work, not overwork).

My guess is 1, 4 and 6 will be true, 2, 3, 5 will be false. He will be penciled in to play on the 3rd line but if he is outplayed he will (correctly) be returned to junior.
I'll agree with the last one. If it looks like he can't play as a reliable third-liner, it's back to junior for him. I want no part of the 4th line or the press box.
AraChniD iS stoOpiDz!

User avatar
ClamRussel
CC Legend
Posts: 3992
Joined: Tue Oct 05, 2004 10:50 am
Location: New South Wales, Australia

Re: Hodgson, Edler, 1st rounder for a top notch CENTER.......???

Post by ClamRussel »

Sid Dithers wrote:
Fred wrote: Man Hodgson is the first time we've had a genuine star player. To me he's untouchable.
I agree. Hodgson represents a great deal of what the future will be. Trade him for one shot to win a Cup? Not chance in hell I do that.
I know what you're saying but lets not forget a certain PAVEL BURE who played here, he was a genuine SUPERSTAR player, Hodgson is looking extremely promising but one should be careful not to heap too much praise on him = unrealistic expectations. I've heard comparisons from Linden (on draft day) to Hawerchuk (by Crawford) in terms of how he'll pan out. From what little I've seen/heard about him he could possibly fall somewhere between Gilmour & Yzerman but at this point who knows. He's still got a LONG way to go before he's a star in the NHL.

There's also been other genuine stars on the Canucks but thats besides the point. Like I said earlier, he's also untouchable in my books.
"Once a King, always a King" -Mike Murphy

User avatar
Jovorock
Moderator & MVP
Moderator & MVP
Posts: 902
Joined: Mon Aug 09, 2004 12:46 pm
Location: Kelowna

Re: Hodgson, Edler, 1st rounder for a top notch CENTER.......???

Post by Jovorock »

Hodgson and Edler are untouchable IMO. Alex is the next puck moving d-man they have been waiting for and Cody is the next Smyl or Linden.
Keep your friends and your enemies very close
You never know when you might have to stab one
of them in the back!

User avatar
Grizzly
MVP
MVP
Posts: 900
Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2004 9:35 am
Location: Dawson Creek

Re: Hodgson, Edler, 1st rounder for a top notch CENTER.......???

Post by Grizzly »

IMO we are still a ways off from being a player away from winning it all. We have some good parts - goaltending, Burrows and Kesler stepping up, decent defense, a relatively young core that is getting better, but we need to continue to build from within and strengthen that core. We cannot at this point sacrifice youth for one player. One player will NOT put us over the top right now.

Putting together a winner takes alot of patience and we don't want to "jump the gun" so to speak ... teams like Toronto have been trying for years to buy experience, sacrifice youth and now look at them. They haven't made the playoffs for what 7 years ... and they still are a ways off.

Lets continue to bring along Edler, get Hodgson in the mix, use Sundin to give us some leadership and then maybe in a year or two look at that big question "Do we sacrifice one or two younger guys for the home run player". Good conversation ... always an interesting question as to whether we pull the trigger and ride the bullet ... or not.

Grizz

User avatar
the toucan kid
CC Legend
Posts: 3923
Joined: Mon Aug 09, 2004 10:50 am

Re: Hodgson, Edler, 1st rounder for a top notch CENTER.......???

Post by the toucan kid »

Frankly guys, the media is going to ensure that most of the numbers on your list occur. The trick is that the organization teaches the guy to tune the stuff out, and given the vapidity of our local talking heads and Hodgson's apparent maturity, it shouldn't be too tough. Seen the kid do an interview? I think he's got it down already, might be a bit of a media darling actually.

I don't really get dork's reference to Hawerchuk not getting close to a cup, are you saying a player like Hawerchuk isn't likely to help a team get to that point? Otherwise, I'm not sure how it's relevant.

User avatar
Cornuck
Moderator & MVP
Moderator & MVP
Posts: 8884
Joined: Mon Aug 09, 2004 11:39 am
Location: Everywhere

Re: Hodgson, Edler, 1st rounder for a top notch CENTER.......???

Post by Cornuck »

Since this deal isn't going to happen - why not post who is the player you'd most like to see as a Canuck and what would you give up to get him?
2019-20 - Playoff Bound

dr.dork
CC Hall of Fan Member
Posts: 1771
Joined: Sun Oct 09, 2005 9:13 am
Location: Vancouver

Re: Hodgson, Edler, 1st rounder for a top notch CENTER.......???

Post by dr.dork »

the toucan kid wrote: I don't really get dork's reference to Hawerchuk not getting close to a cup, are you saying a player like Hawerchuk isn't likely to help a team get to that point? Otherwise, I'm not sure how it's relevant.
It wasn't really relevant.

But if Hodgson is the next Hawerchuk, he plays for the Canucks for 20 years and he doesn't win the cup there will be a lot of long faces around here. :look:

User avatar
the toucan kid
CC Legend
Posts: 3923
Joined: Mon Aug 09, 2004 10:50 am

Re: Hodgson, Edler, 1st rounder for a top notch CENTER.......???

Post by the toucan kid »

But if Hodgson is the next Hawerchuk, he plays for the Canucks for 20 years and he doesn't win the cup there will be a lot of long faces around here.
Well I've made it 20+ years, and could probably do it again... (and if I'm still posting on here in 20 years... Christ, let's not think about that). That said if you have a great player for the balance of his career you expect he'll eventually get you there, and that's a situation we've never been through before.

Farhan Lalji

Re: Hodgson, Edler, 1st rounder for a top notch CENTER.......???

Post by Farhan Lalji »

ClamRussel wrote:This trade proposal reeks of Nelly all over again. Perhaps you're too young to have suffered that pain Farhan but no I wouldn't do it. Now if Lecavalier was just *about* to hit his prime then I'd possibly consider it but at this point its safe to say, while still a very good center, his prime years are behind him. Keep in mind, Barry Pederson was a true no.1 center.
Few things:

1) Lecavlier is only 29 years old. He's not exactly young, but the guy still has LOTS of time to play pretty damn effectively. Guys like Sakic, Sundin, etc., etc. were all playing at the same level from 34-36 years of age. Even if Lecavlier doesn't get 105 points or whatever, he'd still be a HUGE addition if he could be a PPG player.

2) To the best of my knowledge, Lecavlier isn't suffering from any physical ailments (a la Naslund post 2005, a la Barry Pederson). With that in mind, can we really use the Neely/Pederson situation as a valid analogy?

3) Hodgson might be the next Dale Howerchuk, but it's not like Howerchuk was a major 1st line superstar (if I understand correctly....Howerchuk was before my time). Lecavlier however, is a bonafide major 1st line superstar.

4) People keep talking about how Hodgson would be a bargain due to his low salary. Here's my question. How long will the Canucks actually be able to REAP the benefits of a low-salaried Hodgson? Although Hodgson has tons of potential, it will still take him 1-2 years to really be at the level that we expect (meaning - he'll be about 19-20). At the age of 21, if I understand correctly, Hodgson will become a RFA......and will be entitled to what-could-be a huge salary raise.

5) Hodgson can be great.....but who knows what's in store for down the road? Who knows as to what our true assets will be by the time Hodgson gets really good (and in all likelihood, it will still take 1-2 years....and that's being optimistic)

For example - during the WCE era, we always heard comments such as, "boy - when the Sedin twins get REALLY good, the Canucks will be unbeatable since they'll be the perfect complement to Naslund-Morrison-Bertuzzi. We should be patient"

Well - guess what? We WERE patient and the twins DID get really good. The problem however, was that the WCE were now in decline....and are overall gain amounted to nothing. It was a zero-sum game. Now don't get me wrong - I am happy that we kept the twins, but what if we had traded the twins for IMMEDIATE help (either in the form of a more capable goaltender or a formidable center that could have anchored the 2nd line and been a better complement to the WCE at the time?).

The point I'm trying to make, is that if goes both ways......and the future is never guaranteed. Assets are always in constant and gradual re-arrangement.

2 years ago when the Canucks lost to the Ducks, a lot of us said, "Man.....if the Canucks had a reasonable offense and a semi-decent power play, we'd be legit. If Kesler keeps improving the way he does, he would really help take a load of the twins. Once we get Naslund and Morrison off the books, our salary will spent better in so many different ways and we'll get way more help!"

Fast forward to two years - and Kesler DID get much better (as did Burrows! :) ). The Canucks, under Gillis' regime, DID spend money quite wisely for the most part. However - for a wide variety of reasons, our defensive play wasn't at the level that it was a few years ago. Mitchell, Luongo, and Ohlund were all inferior to their selves from 2 years prior.

Take a look back to 1999.....when Canuck fans everywhere promised that we'd be cup contenders in a few years due to our new burgeoning core.

Between 1999 and 2005, how many playoff series did the Canucks win? (with the emergence of Naslund, Morrison, Bertuzzi, Cooke, Jovanovski, Ruutu, etc., etc.).

Couldn't one argue that sometimes, it's WISER to have a greater emphasis on the SHORT-TERM as opposed to the LONG TERM because in the SHORT TERM, a team has a much better "eye" for what their current needs are....and what needs to be addressed....while in the long term, even if a certain player develops, a team's strengths and weaknesses might be completely different anyways.

Farhan Lalji

Re: Hodgson, Edler, 1st rounder for a top notch CENTER.......???

Post by Farhan Lalji »

Sid Dithers wrote:
Fred wrote: Man Hodgson is the first time we've had a genuine star player. To me he's untouchable.
I agree. Hodgson represents a great deal of what the future will be. Trade him for one shot to win a Cup? Not chance in hell I do that.
What is your definition of "one shot at the cup?"

Perhaps if Vincent Lecavlier was 36 years old, I would agree with you. The truth however, is that he's 29.....and still has TONS of time left to be a pretty damn good player. The twins themselves are only 28/29, and will continue to be effective for many years.
"Hodgson represents a great deal of what the future will be."
Back in 1999, the same was said for Markus Naslund. The point I'm trying to make, is that even if 'one' player represents a 'great deal of what the future will be', it still doesn't account for the rest of the team. It's difficult and/or impossible to predict the future make-up of a team and what kind of strengths/weaknesses that team will have. On the flip side - it's FAR easier to determine strengths/weaknesses of a team for the immediate present.

Back in 2006 when the Canucks acquired Luongo, we were told that we would become contenders, provided that Luongo had a decent supporting cast. The first two years - this did not happen (i.e. no decent supporting cast). This year - it DID happen, but the result was no different.

Bottom line? There is a danger amongst fans and GM's in embellishing what the future might turn out to be.

For every Washington and Pitsburgh that comes along, there is always far more St. Louis', Edmonton's, NYI's, Florida's, Chicago's (i.e. struggled for half a decade+), Phoenix', LA's, and Columbus'.

User avatar
DonCherry4PM
MVP
MVP
Posts: 1442
Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2005 10:27 pm

Re: Hodgson, Edler, 1st rounder for a top notch CENTER.......???

Post by DonCherry4PM »

Cornuck wrote:Since this deal isn't going to happen - why not post who is the player you'd most like to see as a Canuck and what would you give up to get him?
Ovechkin for Luongo and both Sedins.
Invincibility lies in oneself.
Vincibility lies in the enemy.

- Sun Tzu

Post Reply