To make the playoffs

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Miller Time
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Re: To make the playoffs

Post by Miller Time » Tue Jan 20, 2009 7:50 pm

As Veenyo has repeatedly stated, it is not a matter of lines but duos instead. That is why everything is still alphabet soup because it always will be with Veenyo. I'm not sure if I agree with it, but expecting that to change is not going to happen. I think the Canucks are close to going on a tear as their game is coming back, they just need to be consistent. I'm not saying that I would guarantee the playoffs, but it seems like these young teams like Phoenix, Chicago and Columbus all tend to fade in the second half of the year as the games become more important. I would be more afraid of Edmonton, Dallas, and Nashville instead, and I think we have a better team than each of those teams.
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the toucan kid
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Re: To make the playoffs

Post by the toucan kid » Tue Jan 20, 2009 8:09 pm

Even in that post I didn't say he was a "key" anything.

You're misunderstanding me dork, no one is saying it won't hurt. I'm just saying he is of less importance than many players on our team. The key to my argument is Mats Sundin, Demitra is just a decent offensive forward. We're not going to implode if we lose ole Pavol. If we need to put Raymond or Wellwood there, we lose something, but not a tonne. Sundin is everything for this team, simple as that. He's a guy that has put up a point a game with mostly inferior players. He's going to have to do what he has done his entire career, and that is produce on his own skills, with limited talent on his wings. If he can do that, we're in good shape.

I don't mean to imply I hate Demitra. He's fine -aside from being injury prone- and with good players setting him up he can finish. He doesn't seem to be able to create offense on his own any longer, and that (just like Naslund) is why he's of secondary importance.

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Re: To make the playoffs

Post by dr.dork » Tue Jan 20, 2009 9:38 pm

the toucan kid wrote:Even in that post I didn't say he was a "key" anything.

You're misunderstanding me dork, no one is saying it won't hurt. I'm just saying he is of less importance than many players on our team. The key to my argument is Mats Sundin, Demitra is just a decent offensive forward. We're not going to implode if we lose ole Pavol. If we need to put Raymond or Wellwood there, we lose something, but not a tonne. Sundin is everything for this team, simple as that. He's a guy that has put up a point a game with mostly inferior players. He's going to have to do what he has done his entire career, and that is produce on his own skills, with limited talent on his wings. If he can do that, we're in good shape.

I don't mean to imply I hate Demitra. He's fine -aside from being injury prone- and with good players setting him up he can finish. He doesn't seem to be able to create offense on his own any longer, and that (just like Naslund) is why he's of secondary importance.
Two-can, what is there to misunderstand with "Sundin and Demitra is a second line and a damn good one by any standard" ? That is what you said. And then you're suggesting out of the other side of your mouth that Demitra isn't that important. You would think the statement I quoted meant he was a key piece of the second line, otherwise why would you mention him ?

But let me be agreeable. Someone needs to play fairly well with Sundin on that second line. You think it might be Raymond, but I don't think he (Raymond) is capable. I also think that if this team does go on a tear, it won't be because Raymond is playing better, it will because Demitra is playing better (with Sundin). I guess time will tell, but I think Raymond won't see reduced time down the stretch.

And Pyatt is looking better lately isn't he ? Told ya.

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Re: To make the playoffs

Post by Island Nucklehead » Tue Jan 20, 2009 10:24 pm

I can't watch the game..stuck in a damn recruiting office.

I think Pyatt knows his role with the Sedin's, and I don't know why AV likes to bump him if he goes 3-4 games without a goal with them. He hasn't played regularly with them all year and whenever he does he looks pretty good. I wish AV would just keep him there for a couple weeks. See how it goes, it couldn't be any worse than losing 5 straight at home!

I wonder what sending Raymond down to the minors would do for him? I'd rather have him down there then bouncing between the second line and the press box every other night. If he's having another bad night tonight, after being scratched...it might be time to let him go down, see if his confidence returns or just leave him there til next year.

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Re: To make the playoffs

Post by trouble » Tue Jan 20, 2009 11:18 pm

Island Nucklehead wrote:I can't watch the game..stuck in a damn recruiting office.

I think Pyatt knows his role with the Sedin's, and I don't know why AV likes to bump him if he goes 3-4 games without a goal with them. He hasn't played regularly with them all year and whenever he does he looks pretty good. I wish AV would just keep him there for a couple weeks. See how it goes, it couldn't be any worse than losing 5 straight at home!

I wonder what sending Raymond down to the minors would do for him? I'd rather have him down there then bouncing between the second line and the press box every other night. If he's having another bad night tonight, after being scratched...it might be time to let him go down, see if his confidence returns or just leave him there til next year.
I don't get Raymond.. The guy can skate like the wind but thats it... The guy is flying around the ice doing just about nothing. Might aswell have a speed skater out there

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Re: To make the playoffs

Post by Larry Goodenough » Tue Jan 20, 2009 11:57 pm

John Shorthouse made a good point this afternoon on Team 1040.

The schedule has changed this year and each conference plays 8 less games within it's confernece. That means 8 less games where 3 points can be shared if a game goes to OT.

Therefore, you can assume the point totals needed to get the 8th place will be less than the last few years. Last year's 8th place team had 91 pts.

With all that being said, it might only take 88-90 pts this year to make the playoffs.

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Re: To make the playoffs

Post by Larry Goodenough » Tue Jan 20, 2009 11:59 pm

Island Nucklehead wrote:I can't watch the game..stuck in a damn recruiting office.

I think Pyatt knows his role with the Sedin's, and I don't know why AV likes to bump him if he goes 3-4 games without a goal with them. He hasn't played regularly with them all year and whenever he does he looks pretty good. I wish AV would just keep him there for a couple weeks. See how it goes, it couldn't be any worse than losing 5 straight at home!

I wonder what sending Raymond down to the minors would do for him? I'd rather have him down there then bouncing between the second line and the press box every other night. If he's having another bad night tonight, after being scratched...it might be time to let him go down, see if his confidence returns or just leave him there til next year.
Raymond has to clear waivers to go to the minors. The Province says has played more than 85 games, which is the cut off.

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Re: To make the playoffs

Post by Island Nucklehead » Wed Jan 21, 2009 10:53 am

Larry Goodenough wrote: Raymond has to clear waivers to go to the minors. The Province says has played more than 85 games, which is the cut off.
Suddenly it makes sense. Well assuming he keeps sucking he'll be back there to start next year. Park him in the press box for a while, see if that wakes him up.
trouble wrote: I don't get Raymond.. The guy can skate like the wind but thats it... The guy is flying around the ice doing just about nothing. Might aswell have a speed skater out there
Sounds like you're talking about one Brandon Reid? Didn't he at least try to hit?
Larry Goodenough wrote:John Shorthouse made a good point this afternoon on Team 1040.

The schedule has changed this year and each conference plays 8 less games within it's confernece. That means 8 less games where 3 points can be shared if a game goes to OT.

Therefore, you can assume the point totals needed to get the 8th place will be less than the last few years. Last year's 8th place team had 91 pts.

With all that being said, it might only take 88-90 pts this year to make the playoffs.
That's quite interesting. Although I think at this point we need to hope we're not in the bottom of the standings by the trade deadline...

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Re: To make the playoffs

Post by the toucan kid » Wed Jan 21, 2009 1:17 pm

Two-can, what is there to misunderstand with "Sundin and Demitra is a second line and a damn good one by any standard" ? That is what you said. And then you're suggesting out of the other side of your mouth that Demitra isn't that important. You would think the statement I quoted meant he was a key piece of the second line, otherwise why would you mention him ?

But let me be agreeable. Someone needs to play fairly well with Sundin on that second line. You think it might be Raymond, but I don't think he (Raymond) is capable. I also think that if this team does go on a tear, it won't be because Raymond is playing better, it will because Demitra is playing better (with Sundin). I guess time will tell, but I think Raymond won't see reduced time down the stretch.

And Pyatt is looking better lately isn't he ? Told ya.
Not what I'm saying. Sundin is a damn good second line by any standard, Demitra is just the obvious pairing (AV stresses duos, remember) and best option. If I had said "the Sundin line is a good second line by any stretch" would you be happy?

I don't think Raymond is playing well, but his value is only marginally less than Demitra at the moment. Simple as that, everything else is either my unclear prose or your lack of understanding.

If this team gets rolling it's because Sundin gets rolling, straight up, it all comes down to him.

My beef with Pyatt was that we knew about his foot issue coming out of camp and that he was a liability playing hurt. He should have taken a month off in November, not as late as he did. Now that he's healthy, he seems to be able to help the team, and I'm glad. He's certainly part of our top six from here on out if he continues at his current level of play.

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Re: To make the playoffs

Post by dr.dork » Wed Jan 21, 2009 2:09 pm

the toucan kid wrote: I don't think Raymond is playing well, but his value is only marginally less than Demitra at the moment. Simple as that, everything else is either my unclear prose or your lack of understanding.
Well, that is where we differ. I think there is little hope (this year) of Raymond finding chemistry with anyone. Demitra at least has a hope of finding chemistry with Sundin. If you're looking at points, then that doesn't really matter because you need to guess how Sundin will do with Raymond vs Demitra. Perhaps you have more faith in Raymond (this year) than I do.

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Re: To make the playoffs

Post by JJpasadena » Wed Jan 21, 2009 3:16 pm

I keep asking myself, "what the hell happened!?", but i already know one of the answers...injuries have finally taken their toll on the team and it's showing in the W/L columns.
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Re: To make the playoffs

Post by Island Nucklehead » Wed Jan 21, 2009 5:40 pm

the toucan kid wrote: Not what I'm saying. Sundin is a damn good second line by any standard, Demitra is just the obvious pairing (AV stresses duos, remember) and best option. If I had said "the Sundin line is a good second line by any stretch" would you be happy?
No I wouldn't be happy. He's been brought in to take some heat off the Sedin's, and to provide us with a 1A/1B combination. Essentially, we have 4 players (Sedin's, Sundin, Demitra) who COULD be top line players. The people they are paired with most definately aren't. Therfore, we need more than a one-man second line. Sundin will need some help, and that should come from Demitra, provided he's healthy.

It's going to come down to a balanced attack, where the opponents will have to make a tough call on who to send their shutdown tandem against. Sundin by himself takes no pressure off the Sedin's, if only for the fact that he's too slow and any decent centre in this league will be able to stick with him at all times, getting help from the D when they need. If I'm coaching against them, I'll let Raymond and his awful shooting take outside shots all day long.
If this team gets rolling it's because Sundin gets rolling, straight up, it all comes down to him.
You've really bought into this savior thing, haven't you? This team rattled off a serious shutout streak and was at one point at the top of their division without this guy. While they've started tailing off since before they got him, you can most definately say they've been a worse team since he arrived, Luongo's injury couldn't help...but we WERE holding the fort to a certain degree. Since he's shown up, the wheels have fallen off.

I'm gonna go out and say that if this team gets rolling, straight up, it all comes down to Luongo and the defensive play (the D and our bottom six). Case in point, 1-0 on SJ with 30 seconds to go.

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Re: To make the playoffs

Post by the toucan kid » Wed Jan 21, 2009 9:50 pm

You misunderstand me, I'm not saying that he necessarily will save us, just that if this team is going to emerge from the pack it will need Sundin to step up and be his old point a game self. That is the differential from the teams we put out the last two years, that's what makes this team better.

I'm just curious Island, not that I would begrudge anyone for NOT watching Leaves games, but you understand this guy's reputation? He has been a top level center for most of his career playing with a fair bit of garbage. That's why he is the man for the job here, he is probably going to have to do most of the second line work himself for this to work. Sure his totals went up when he was paired with Mogilny in Toronto (who was better then than Demitra is now), but Sundin is head and shoulders more valuable to our efforts than ole Pavol. Anything we get out of Demitra is a bonus, but he really isn't among our most valuable players in my estimation.

As you said the core of this team is it's defensive play which makes those guys quite important, not to mention our checking line, and especially our goaltender. That's the foundation, then you add the Sedins, and you should have an okay team (we'll call this team A). If you add a second line player who produces a point a game, you should have a pretty darn good team (team B?). Add Pavol Demitra on to the line of said second line player? You have a slightly better, but only incrementally so, team (team C). Take Sundin out and put Demitra in, call it team D... oh wait it's pretty much the exact same as team A.

Admittedly a ridiculous way of putting it, but I'm just straining for ways to get my point across at this point... :lol:

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Re: To make the playoffs

Post by Farhan Lalji » Wed Feb 04, 2009 2:15 pm

the toucan kid wrote:
As you said the core of this team is it's defensive play which makes those guys quite important, not to mention our checking line, and especially our goaltender. That's the foundation, then you add the Sedins, and you should have an okay team (we'll call this team A). If you add a second line player who produces a point a game, you should have a pretty darn good team (team B?). Add Pavol Demitra on to the line of said second line player? You have a slightly better, but only incrementally so, team (team C). Take Sundin out and put Demitra in, call it team D... oh wait it's pretty much the exact same as team A.

Admittedly a ridiculous way of putting it, but I'm just straining for ways to get my point across at this point... :lol:
Few things:

A) Completely agree with you as it relates to Sundin. To me - this is the GREAT thing however. Sundin is a Stanley Cup virgin...and could very easily have the dubious distinction of "being the greatest player to have never won a cup." Maybe not this week...maybe not next week.....but at some point, I truly believe that Sundin will give us his ALL. Even if Sundin proves to be 'passed his prime'...and it becomes clear that his lower level play is due to 'rust', I believe that IF the Canucks make the playoffs...the guy will be a MAJOR force. As we saw with Linden 2 seasons ago, I think Sundin will do the same....the only difference being, that Sundin is a much more talented player than Linden...while having the same level of heart. :)

B) I completely agree with you that this team needs to back to its defensive foundation. If the Canucks feel that they can just go out there and offensively dominate teams due to Sundin's presence, they are very wrong. In a weird way - I believe that the more 'humble' the Canucks are...and DON'T perceive themselves to be an elite team (which then leads to them committing more to a greater work ethic and defensive player), the more likely it is that they will start PLAYING like an elite team.

In a strange sort of way, I am glad that the Canucks went through such a tumultous January. I believe that this new found humbleness derived from this streak will ultimately get them back on the path to hardwork and defensive savvyiness.

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Re: To make the playoffs

Post by dr.dork » Wed Feb 04, 2009 3:30 pm

Farhan Lalji wrote: In a strange sort of way, I am glad that the Canucks went through such a tumultous January. I believe that this new found humbleness derived from this streak will ultimately get them back on the path to hardwork and defensive savvyiness.
I knew you couldn't last until march. :D Welcome back, although I don't know what the origin of the self-boot was...

Better to have a 1000 game losing streak in January than March or April, I suppose.

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