The 'Sisters' aren't worth the price

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Robert
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Re: The 'Sisters' aren't worth the price

Post by Robert » Sat Jan 10, 2009 10:19 pm

Farhan Lalji wrote: In the 06/07 playoffs, the Sedin's level of play was lower than what we were accustomed to.
You omitted/forgot/never knew that it came out after the playoffs that they both were quite ill at that time.

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Re: The 'Sisters' aren't worth the price

Post by Cornuck » Sat Jan 10, 2009 10:27 pm

I"m pretty sure that was the year/series where they had the flu or some other illness that forced the have IV feeds during intermissions. This came out after they lost the series, of course, and helped explain their lack of spirited play.
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Re: The 'Sisters' aren't worth the price

Post by Robert » Sat Jan 10, 2009 10:31 pm

You are correct. I'm not sure how this was all kept in the room but it was. It was a miracle they even skated. I know when I'm sick it's bed and toilet... pro hockey? Not a chance. How do some of these guys do it?

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Re: The 'Sisters' aren't worth the price

Post by Cornuck » Sat Jan 10, 2009 10:36 pm

If you were getting a million or two a year, and had 1,000's of people relying on you, would you show up for work?
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Re: The 'Sisters' aren't worth the price

Post by Island Nucklehead » Sat Jan 10, 2009 11:10 pm

My big problem with the Sedins is that they are truly one-dimensional. They rarely score off the rush, in fact I'm pretty sure they don't get shots on half their 2 on 1's or odd man rushes. They need to get into the cycle, work it around, muck it up a bit and slowly work it to the net.

If we pay them the 6-7 Million they're expecting we are banking on them getting better than they are now, which the evidence just dosn't really support. We're effectively saying "this is what we want, we're happy with how good you are." In fact, I don't think we are. IF they are going to command premiere dollars they are going to have to prove that they can score off the rush, get some speed so they can actually beat guys, or win us a shootout regularly. Not being minus players in the postseason always helps too.

The best chance we have is with the Sedin's as a 1/A or 1/B unit on a team that can score by committee. Unfortunately, after they re-up after this year they are going to be the number 1 unit and I don't really think they're capable of that task, despite their regular season stats.

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Re: The 'Sisters' aren't worth the price

Post by jchockey » Sat Jan 10, 2009 11:59 pm

Island Nucklehead wrote: If we pay them the 6-7 Million they're expecting we are banking on them getting better than they are now, which the evidence just dosn't really support.
Exactly.

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Re: The 'Sisters' aren't worth the price

Post by Farhan Lalji » Sun Jan 11, 2009 12:25 am

Robert wrote:
Farhan Lalji wrote: In the 06/07 playoffs, the Sedin's level of play was lower than what we were accustomed to.
You omitted/forgot/never knew that it came out after the playoffs that they both were quite ill at that time.
It's all bullshit. I've heard that same tired ol' song before. "Both Sedin twins had some kind of gastro-intestinal illness."

What. They shared the same toilet paper? Please. Look at how guys like Yzerman, Linden, and Forsberg responded with severe injuries (i.e. damaged knees, cracked ribs, broken nose, ruptured spleen, etc.).

What was the Sedin twins excuse last year during the last 10 games of the season?

Like Naslund, Bertuzzi, Demitra and a few other Canuck forwards of yester-year and current, the Sedin twins have world class talent. There's no denying that. However - until they can show an ability to carry this team when they need them most, I will not have respect for them. As much as I want to hate Jarome Iginla for being a Calgary Flamer, I have nothing but the utmost respect for the guy. Hopefully, I'll have to reason to feel this way about the twins one day.

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Re: The 'Sisters' aren't worth the price

Post by Island Nucklehead » Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:21 am

Yet Iginla and the Sedin's have the same amount of Cups.

I don't know what Vancouver fans really expect out of two Swedish Twins. They are not Canadian, didn't play WHL hockey so we can't expect them to know how to crash and bang and play a gritty playoff game.

All we can hope is that they put some points on the board in the playoffs like they do in the regular season. The crash and bang will have to be left to those that do it in the 82 games prior to the playoffs. Nobody expects them to muck it up...it's just not the way they play. Get over it.

As far as your examples. Forsberg didn't play with a ruptured spleen, he had it removed and that was it for him until the next seasons' playoffs. Linden is the greatest Canuck of all time, and Yzerman is one of hockey's greatest leaders and a Hall of Famer. If you're going to compare the Sedins' to these guys, no wonder they won't measure up to your insane standards.

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Re: The 'Sisters' aren't worth the price

Post by Robert » Sun Jan 11, 2009 10:46 am

Farhan Lalji wrote: It's all bullshit. I've heard that same tired ol' song before. "Both Sedin twins had some kind of gastro-intestinal illness."
YOur post is bullshit. Your brain is in a stereotyping fog. How many games have the Sedin's missed? Who scored the winner in period 19 against dallas when no one else had the meddle anymore?

I and anyone who knows gives them a shitload of credit for even suiting up. Quit with the bullshit farhan.

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Re: The 'Sisters' aren't worth the price

Post by MarkMM » Sun Jan 11, 2009 11:15 am

Mozy wrote:
Madcombinepilot wrote: The only problem with this is I don't expect Kesler to stay on the third line. I don't think anyone that's a proper fan of this team expects him to stay on the third line.

'proper fan'?!?!? wtf was that supposed to mean?

Why would you take Kesler out of his comfort spot (third line checking center) a position where he excels, performs above expectations, and move him into a role that is new to him (second line scoring center)?? what is the logical thought process of taking a guy from a spot where he is argurably the best in the league for the dollar he is paid, and put him somewhere else? why would you break up a proven chemisty that he has with another player? why would you take him from a spot where he makes his other linemates better, and put him into a spot where others would to make him better?

What are you going to do with Wellwood (a second line scoring center) and why are you writing off any chance to resign Sundin so soon? Where are you planning to play Cody Hodgeson next year -- yet another top 2 center?

just curious as to your thought process here.
A proper fan is one that has half a brain and has an ounce of knowledge about hockey.

Why would you take Kesler out of his comfort squat? Do you want a player over achieving in an inferior position? Or underachieving in a superior position? If you move Kesler and get him to play in a spot that isn't his comfort spot he will adapt and learn to make his new position his comfort spot. I'd rather he move up and adapt and become a better player. Wouldn't you? Or would you settle for less? I mean you know, we have so much offense right now asking for more is just foolish right?

And if he makes his line mates better, wouldn't you rather him elevate his game so that he's making his second line line mates better? To me moving him up is a win win situation. You can't go wrong...

If Sundin wanted to stay more than one year, he would have signed for more than one year. He's 38, he's taken the money, this is seemingly his last ditch effort. Cup or bust. That's why I'm writing him off so soon.

You say he's the best value for the position he pays, if that's the case why not pay the whole third line 2.1 million. He'd be worth what he was paid if he was back scoring 20+ goals a season. He'd be worth the money he gets to play his position if he get 1.5 mill, not 2.1.

Kesler is not going to settle for a 3rd line position much longer. At some point he will leave he there's no chance of him moving up.
Er, anyone with "hockey knowledge" would know that Kesler was projected to be an elite third-liner, he was drafted for that role, and he's acknowledged in the league to be one of the best at that role and has a good chance at winning the Selke one one day. I'm not sure why you think being on the third-line is somehow disparaging of his abilities, unless you're confused with the role of a third-line centre and think he's somewhat less valuable because he's been given a very specific and very important role.

Do players want to be recognized for their progress? Yup, and you don't need to constantly "move up" in the line numbers, otherwise we'd have 9-11 disgruntled players. Kesler has been given pay raises, he has been given increases in ice-time so that he's now one of the team-leaders in ice-time (often more than second-liners), he is trusted in key situations despite his relative youth, he's been made an assistant-captain despite many older players with varying degrees of leadership ability...oh but wait, he's only on the third line, and despite that being a key role that championship teams rely on, apparently hockey knowledge means that he should vacate that role ASAP.

Um, no.

Kesler's a bargain at $1.75 (as was pointed out already, you're a bit off putting him at $1.5), Burrows I'd aim for $1-1.3, 1.5 is absolutely tops, but I do like him and would expect him to stay, his whole career has been here, he's got a great thing going on with Kesler, we're on the cusp of being a consistently winning team with things looking good for the future and anyone paying more will be overpaying, much less likely in today's climate). Bernier's much harder to figure out, the whole offer-sheet threw fair valuations a bit off, I'd like to see if we could keep him at no more than his current salary but extend it over a multi-year deal. Potential for $3million plus, yes, but he hasn't shown it yet.

As for the Sedins, I started off the season thinking $5.75 million max for a long-term deal, given the cap situation, unless we're only signing them for a one-year deal then anything beyond that will have to take a declining cap into mind, so I'd go with a $5 million deal. I'm not a fan of NTC's unless they get us a real, real bargain (Ohlund at $3.5 was fair, for example) but I'd be willing to give them a no-separation clause.Mark
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Re: The 'Sisters' aren't worth the price

Post by BingoTough » Sun Jan 11, 2009 1:52 pm

Farhan Lalji wrote:It's all bullshit. I've heard that same tired ol' song before. "Both Sedin twins had some kind of gastro-intestinal illness."
Ever got norovirus? A happy mix between puking & sh!tting whenever you have anything liquid (or solid) in your body? Easily transmitted? I think you'd find it pretty difficult to play anything when unable to drink water / avoid soiling your self let along pro-hockey.

People get ill / injured. "Manning up" isn't always helpful.

Life sucks

Get over it. It's not like every other highly paid player has a multi-faceted game any they don't. Some are good on the rush, some with cycling. It happens our guys are good on the cycle.

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Re: The 'Sisters' aren't worth the price

Post by BingoTough » Sun Jan 11, 2009 1:56 pm

MarkMM wrote: Er, anyone with "hockey knowledge" would know that Kesler was projected to be an elite third-liner, he was drafted for that role, and he's acknowledged in the league to be one of the best at that role and has a good chance at winning the Selke one one day.
Amen

If Kesler goes out against the Capitals and holds Ovechkin / Semin off the scoresheet, I'm pretty sure I don't care about his goals for the evening.

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Re: The 'Sisters' aren't worth the price

Post by Farhan Lalji » Sun Jan 11, 2009 7:23 pm

BingoTough wrote:
Farhan Lalji wrote:It's all bullshit. I've heard that same tired ol' song before. "Both Sedin twins had some kind of gastro-intestinal illness."
Ever got norovirus? A happy mix between puking & sh!tting whenever you have anything liquid (or solid) in your body? Easily transmitted? I think you'd find it pretty difficult to play anything when unable to drink water / avoid soiling your self let along pro-hockey.

People get ill / injured. "Manning up" isn't always helpful.

Life sucks

Get over it. It's not like every other highly paid player has a multi-faceted game any they don't. Some are good on the rush, some with cycling. It happens our guys are good on the cycle.
Few things:

1) How did BOTH twins simultaneously end up with this affliction? I'm not implying that this couldn't have happened, but I just find it a bit odd. Maybe it's just me, but it comes across as players (media) that are trying to justify their poor performance (just as the St. Louis Blues organization did that year when they blew their 3-1 series lead to Vancouver).

2) What happened to the Sedin twins last season during the last 10 games of the season? They were most conspicuous in their absence.

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Re: The 'Sisters' aren't worth the price

Post by Madcombinepilot » Mon Jan 12, 2009 9:42 am

Farhan Lalji wrote:
BingoTough wrote:
Farhan Lalji wrote:It's all bullshit. I've heard that same tired ol' song before. "Both Sedin twins had some kind of gastro-intestinal illness."
Ever got norovirus? A happy mix between puking & sh!tting whenever you have anything liquid (or solid) in your body? Easily transmitted? I think you'd find it pretty difficult to play anything when unable to drink water / avoid soiling your self let along pro-hockey.

People get ill / injured. "Manning up" isn't always helpful.

Life sucks

Get over it. It's not like every other highly paid player has a multi-faceted game any they don't. Some are good on the rush, some with cycling. It happens our guys are good on the cycle.
Few things:

1) How did BOTH twins simultaneously end up with this affliction? I'm not implying that this couldn't have happened, but I just find it a bit odd. Maybe it's just me, but it comes across as players (media) that are trying to justify their poor performance (just as the St. Louis Blues organization did that year when they blew their 3-1 series lead to Vancouver).

2) What happened to the Sedin twins last season during the last 10 games of the season? They were most conspicuous in their absence.
1) the stomach flu was running through the entire dressingroom during those playoffs.... Remember the look on Nonis's face when Sanford came out to start that OT period, because Lu was in the lu? it wasn't just the twins that were sick, it was a bunch of them. Not an excuse for thier play, just a fact.

2) the ENITRE team shit the bed last year for the last 10 games. don't just point at the twins. Where were the 'leaders' on the team then? what did Naslund and Morrison do to ge tthe team into the post season?? for the last 10 games last year, nobody performed and finger pointing at individuals is useless. Don't let your dislike for 2 people jade your view of the past.
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Re: The 'Sisters' aren't worth the price

Post by jchockey » Mon Jan 12, 2009 1:38 pm

Speaking of leadership, MCP, another argument against the Sedins is the fact that as the team's highest paid players, they don't play any sort of leadership roles at all. Only when the team was decimated with injuries last year did they get the A's. If I'm spending upwards of $5m on a player, he better be damn good to at least wear an A on a rotational basis.

Whatever happened in the past is in the past - how the Sedins play this summer will very much determine their market value. I hope they realize that as well. Unfortunately, and this is awfully pessimistic, I don't see anything from them that tells me they can elevate their level of play and lead this team deep into the playoffs.

Naming Luongo captain is good and all, but he doesn't have he on-ice presence compared to a player captain. Luongo's leadership is regulated to the locker room, the trapezoid, and the blue paint.

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