The 'Sisters' aren't worth the price

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Todd Bersnoozi
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Re: The 'Sisters' aren't worth the price

Post by Todd Bersnoozi »

As I said before, don't let stats cloud your judgement. Nasi and the Sedins have put up decent numbers in the playoffs, but under their watch to provide the offence, they only have 2 playoffs series wins in like 8 years. They have never made it past the 2nd round. When the teams needs somone to take the bull by the horn, to score a timely goal, carry the team on their backs or dominate the opposing teams.... Nasi and the Sedins have never been able to do it. Sure, you can blame some of it on goaltending, management not getting the right guys or poor coaching... but Nasi and the Sedins were supposed to be the ones leading the way, yet somehow they always seem to be looking to someone else to carry the torch. That's why most ppl here think we should try to sign them to reasonable contracts, but we can't give them superstar dollars.

I even recall down the stretch last season, when the team was fighting tooth and nail for a playoff spot. The Sedins were stone cold and Lui was pretty average. It was Kesler and Burrows leading the way up front, Trevor provided a spark too. When push comes to shove, the Sedins were no shows. Sure, they faced the toughest checkers, but superstars find a way to score despite. The Sedins looked like sisters out there.

Larry Goodenough wrote: The problem I always have with the "they are not first line players" argument is no one defines what a first line player should be. What is your definition?

If there are 30 teams in the league and they all have first lines, that makes 90 first line players. As pointed out above, Henrik is 5th in assists in the whole league. The are both in the top 30 in scoring - which makes them in the top third of those 90 players mentioned. They are two of the top 30 forwards in the whole world (population 6 billion) yet they aren't "first line players"?

For me, the debate should be whether a long term contract is a good idea before they have any playoff success. Right now they are Swedish versions of Joe Thornton.

I would also add Naslund had 9 pts in the 7 games against Calgary in the 04 playoffs while playing with a broken elbow. He also did not have Bertuzzi on his line. He also had 14 pts in the 14 playoff games he played in the year before. He might not necessarily be labeled a "warrior", but he was not a shinking violet either.

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Re: The 'Sisters' aren't worth the price

Post by dangler »

Larry Goodenough wrote: By your own definition they are first liners then. They always face the other team's top defenders and as Cornuck pointed out Daniel is 13th in the league in scoring while Henrik is 5th in assists.
Thats what makes this year different.The team has had secondary scoring from Wellwood,Demitra and others.
But I was referring to post-reg. season were we have seen their ineffectiveness when there is not another decent line to present another scoring threat.
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Re: The 'Sisters' aren't worth the price

Post by Larry Goodenough »

Todd Bersnoozi wrote:As I said before, don't let stats cloud your judgement. Nasi and the Sedins have put up decent numbers in the playoffs, but under their watch to provide the offence, they only have 2 playoffs series wins in like 8 years. They have never made it past the 2nd round. When the teams needs somone to take the bull by the horn, to score a timely goal, carry the team on their backs or dominate the opposing teams.... Nasi and the Sedins have never been able to do it. Sure, you can blame some of it on goaltending, management not getting the right guys or poor coaching... but Nasi and the Sedins were supposed to be the ones leading the way, yet somehow they always seem to be looking to someone else to carry the torch. That's why most ppl here think we should try to sign them to reasonable contracts, but we can't give them superstar dollars.

I even recall down the stretch last season, when the team was fighting tooth and nail for a playoff spot. The Sedins were stone cold and Lui was pretty average. It was Kesler and Burrows leading the way up front, Trevor provided a spark too. When push comes to shove, the Sedins were no shows. Sure, they faced the toughest checkers, but superstars find a way to score despite. The Sedins looked like sisters out there.

Larry Goodenough wrote: The problem I always have with the "they are not first line players" argument is no one defines what a first line player should be. What is your definition?

If there are 30 teams in the league and they all have first lines, that makes 90 first line players. As pointed out above, Henrik is 5th in assists in the whole league. The are both in the top 30 in scoring - which makes them in the top third of those 90 players mentioned. They are two of the top 30 forwards in the whole world (population 6 billion) yet they aren't "first line players"?

For me, the debate should be whether a long term contract is a good idea before they have any playoff success. Right now they are Swedish versions of Joe Thornton.

I would also add Naslund had 9 pts in the 7 games against Calgary in the 04 playoffs while playing with a broken elbow. He also did not have Bertuzzi on his line. He also had 14 pts in the 14 playoff games he played in the year before. He might not necessarily be labeled a "warrior", but he was not a shinking violet either.
Then, by your definition, Joe Thornton and Patrick Marleau are not first liners. They are also all stats and no playoff success. As is Marc Savard, Kovalchuk, Carter, Ovechkin, Nash, Semin, etc...

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Re: The 'Sisters' aren't worth the price

Post by LotusBlossom »

Larry Goodenough wrote:
Then, by your definition, Joe Thornton and Patrick Marleau are not first liners. They are also all stats and no playoff success. As is Marc Savard, Kovalchuk, Carter, Ovechkin, Nash, Semin, etc...
I was just going to bring up Thornton...lol, but the Sedins are always taking more flak then they deserve. The whole playing together, drafted together, blah blah blah...they are TWINS ...it's just part of nature.

Anyway...I used to hate the fact we drafted them, glad I was proven wrong.
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Todd Bersnoozi
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Re: The 'Sisters' aren't worth the price

Post by Todd Bersnoozi »

Hmm... your point about first liners is valid. Out of the 90 first liners in the NHL, I would say the Sedins are around the middle of the pack. So, I think about half the NHL teams have better players on their 1st line over the Sedins; and the Sedins are better than the other half. All the names you mentioned, I would take over the Sedins in a heartbeat. Maybe I'm biased against euros, maybe watching Nasi all these years made me kind of disgruntled, I don't know.

I don't think the Sedins are the best first line players, but they are our first line. They are what we have and we are stuck with them. Well, at least for this season anyways. I did call them a 1B line (not a true first line, but better than a 2nd). I guess to me the definition of a first line is not that important, it's more what is a superstar and what should we pay the Sedins? In my opinion, the Sedins are very good players. Heck, I would call them star players, but not superstars. They are good players to have around, but the question is... at what price? So yeah, I would agree with most posters. Around $5.5 - $6 mill might be OK, but I'm not sure I'd give them $7+



Larry Goodenough wrote:
Then, by your definition, Joe Thornton and Patrick Marleau are not first liners. They are also all stats and no playoff success. As is Marc Savard, Kovalchuk, Carter, Ovechkin, Nash, Semin, etc...[/quote]

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Re: The 'Sisters' aren't worth the price

Post by westvandal »

5.5 tops for both of them because they want to be together.
I see that happening, and I love it, as long as they can supplement them properly.
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Re: The 'Sisters' aren't worth the price

Post by dr.dork »

I think the other interesting question and relevant question (relating to the Sedins) is "is their linemate a first line player" ? Raymond ? Nope. Bernier ? Nope. Pyatt ? Nope. Demitra ? Possibly, if he can maintain consistency.

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Re: The 'Sisters' aren't worth the price

Post by dangler »

Larry Goodenough wrote:

"Then, by your definition, Joe Thornton and Patrick Marleau are not first liners. They are also all stats and no playoff success. As is Marc Savard, Kovalchuk, Carter, Ovechkin, Nash, Semin, etc..."

I think thats a accurate definition if you want to win the cup. If your happy just gettin into the playoffs then you could broaden your definition ,but if you honestly plan on winnin the big prize,then reg. season stats mean next-to-squat and it's all about playoff success,showing up for the big games,finding a way to get it done and all those other cliched expressions.

I'd bet the Sedins and most of the other players you listed feel the same way to a degree.
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Re: The 'Sisters' aren't worth the price

Post by Mozy »

Sid Dithers wrote:The Sedins are certainly worth a price. But what price? Second-line dollars, yes...first-dollars, no.
I don't think they're worth the 6 mill that they asking. Unfortunately offering Sundin (a guy that has less points than each of the Sedin's in the last two years) has handcuffed the Canuck's. All that cap space that Nonis had worked hard to save us by getting them to sign for considerably less, has been lost by Gillis' over anxious offer to Mats.

If Mats returns next year at the 8 million he got this year, or more for that matter, then we're going to spend ever last cap dollar to secure them.

We have the advantage in re-signing them just because if you think about it there's not a lot of other teams that need TWO "first" line forwards. Most teams are looking for one guy to lead them, or one guy to fill that space. Something tells me if the Sedin's go anywhere else they're going to want to stay together. So unless they accept a lot of money to play on a team like Atlanta and forfeit success we might have negotiating leverage in being amongst the top contenders for the cup every year.
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Re: The 'Sisters' aren't worth the price

Post by Doyle Hargraves »

This thread is all over the place. I'd like to see the Sedins come back at reasonable dollars. If they want more than 5 million each, let them walk as the cap will go down dramatically the year after next. First of all I would like to see how they perform in the playoffs this year before Gillis commits any money to them . There's no reason they have to be signed BEFORE the season ends. They love the city and the Canucks are set up well for next years cap as far as not having too many dollars tied up.

And I'm not sure who wants to run Pyatt and Bernier out of town and replace them with Bolduc and Jaffray (who is 4 years older than Bernier!!) but that is a crack induced idea if i have ever heard one. Put down the glass beak and move away from your keyboard.
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Re: The 'Sisters' aren't worth the price

Post by Mozy »

Pyatt is a waste of space. He needs to go. If anything the Canucks will pull a similar deal with Pyatt and have Bernier back for another year to give him "another chance" I wouldn't necessarily say replace the two with Jaffray and Bolduc, but Jaffray's been putting up more points than Pyatt recently.

Pyatt has failed miserably in being the power forward we picked him up to be. I wouldnt be surprised if he was part of some deadline deal to get him out of here, or if he just moves on at the end of the season. I really don't see him coming back next year. And next year if you bring up Hodgson, then that fills one of the two spots and Jaffray and Bolduc can fight for the other. I don't see it being a problem running these two out of town.
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Re: The 'Sisters' aren't worth the price

Post by Doyle Hargraves »

Pyatt has had a broken foot for two weeks !!!! I swear sometimes some fans just read the stats and see how many goals or points a guy has and determines the players worth. Pyatt has been a staple on the 2nd unit pk which has climbed dramatically in recent weeks. He is a big body who isn't afraid to play in traffic . why just deal a guy just because a few fairweather fans want to get rid of him? It's asinine thinking. They will need 4 lines rolling come playoffs and if they can add a little more depth a 4th line of Jhnson, Pyatt and Hansen could be a great 4th line.

The guy plays for less than the league average but fans expect 30 goals from him. Fucking hilarious.
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Re: The 'Sisters' aren't worth the price

Post by Madcombinepilot »

I don't think they're worth the 6 mill that they asking.
where did that come from?

I thought that was the upper end of popular opinion. you have a source to back that number up?
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Re: The 'Sisters' aren't worth the price

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Madcombinepilot wrote:
I don't think they're worth the 6 mill that they asking.
where did that come from?

I thought that was the upper end of popular opinion. you have a source to back that number up?
That number is a guesstimate. I believe, actually, that the twins were looking for $7m each. It was first reported in the papers, Metro, VanSun, that their agent JP Barry would be using other players such as Scott Gomez and Chris Drury as comparisons. Gomez and Drury both earn over $7m/season but have generated fewer point totals than either of the Sedins.

The Sedins are not superstars. I would take one Joe Thornton over both of them any day. Thornton will never shed his playoff choker tag unless the Sharks go far in this year's playoffs, and even if they do, a lot of their improved playoff performance will probably be attributed to Dan Boyle or Rob Blake instead. Same with the Sedins - they'll never shed their playoff choke tag unless they go far, but that being said using this logic it can be concluded that most players are chokers in the playoffs. However, when the game is on the line, game seven, last minute, I would be much more comfortable having Thornton on the ice than the twins.

The Sedins are good hockey players - statistically they're among tops in the league and their ability to generate scoring chances off a seemingly harmless cycle is amazing. As a duo, their point production outpaces most of the other duos in the league, including Getzlaf and Perry, both of whom earn a shade over $5m/season. Considering that their production is somewhere between the lines of Getzlaf and Thornton, $7m/year is too much. Replacing them, if their price is too high, won't be easy but I think it's doable.
Mozy wrote:We have the advantage in re-signing them just because if you think about it there's not a lot of other teams that need TWO "first" line forwards. Most teams are looking for one guy to lead them, or one guy to fill that space. Something tells me if the Sedin's go anywhere else they're going to want to stay together. So unless they accept a lot of money to play on a team like Atlanta and forfeit success we might have negotiating leverage in being amongst the top contenders for the cup every year.
The other advantage is that they won't be getting the dollars they want on the open market. No team is going to commit that much money to two forwards that will most likely play on the second line. Most teams have a first line already to build from and the fact that the Sedins are pushing for a "no separation clause" makes it that much more difficult. There just aren't that many teams that have at least $15m in cap space to seriously push for the Sedins, and even for the teams that do, most of them have self-imposed cap restrictions.

It’s a little murky right now what will happen, but it will depend a lot on the cap limits, the Sedins’ and the team’s performance in the playoffs, the asking price, and the free agent market.

Signing the Sedins to a short term contract will not be an option because they probably won’t accept it. I would say a three-year extension is the bare minimum they will accept, and the shorter the contract the higher the dollars.

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Re: The 'Sisters' aren't worth the price

Post by dr.dork »

jchockey wrote: The Sedins are good hockey players - statistically they're among tops in the league and their ability to generate scoring chances off a seemingly harmless cycle is amazing. As a duo, their point production outpaces most of the other duos in the league, including Getzlaf and Perry, both of whom earn a shade over $5m/season. Considering that their production is somewhere between the lines of Getzlaf and Thornton, $7m/year is too much. Replacing them, if their price is too high, won't be easy but I think it's doable.
I think this is a good analysis and I agree. It means that about $5m each per year is probably about right. Anything more than that and we are probably better off walking. $7M each will handcuff us.

I don't think replacing them would be very easy or maybe even doable, but $6M+ per season simply doesn't make sense.

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