WHO should the Canucks get with their freed-up cap space?

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Re: WHO should the Canucks get with their freed-up cap space?

Post by Mozy » Wed Jan 07, 2009 10:07 pm

Keep dreaming toucan!
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Re: WHO should the Canucks get with their freed-up cap space?

Post by Cookie La Rue » Thu Jan 08, 2009 12:10 am

I would say let's see how this edition works it out in the next weeks 'til the deadline.

Maybe it's even not necessary to make a trade for a new player despite the cap space just for the sake of it.
Not to destroy developed team chemistry. Sometimes too much makes it worse.

But that doesn't mean MG can't speak with other GM's for possible trades but it must be the right fit.
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Re: WHO should the Canucks get with their freed-up cap space?

Post by Mozy » Thu Jan 08, 2009 1:46 am

I think bringing in a top 4 forward to play with the sedins would be great. drop demitra to the second with sundin and wellwood. make your third line hansen kesler and burrows and throw hordichuk alongside johnson pyatt (if he's not dealt as part of getting the forward)

that would make for a potent offense.
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Re: WHO should the Canucks get with their freed-up cap space?

Post by Cookie La Rue » Thu Jan 08, 2009 2:36 am

Bringin' in is always good but who would you let go ? And it will be more than just Pyatt for example.

And does this one (or more) give you the right fit in return ? Not to say losing more than you gain.
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Re: WHO should the Canucks get with their freed-up cap space?

Post by the Cunning Linguist » Thu Jan 08, 2009 9:27 am

I'm beginning to really warm up to the idea of picking up TKabs out of Toronto... He's got two more years left at $4.25M and can be the PP QB that this team hasn't had since Jovo. Sure he's had an atrocious season so far in TO, but he doesn't have the same defensive supporting cast there as he would here, nor does he have Luongo in goal.

However, with Edler due for a raise to $3.25M next year, it might mean that we wouldn't be able to re-sign Ohlund...
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Re: WHO should the Canucks get with their freed-up cap space?

Post by nucklehead88 » Thu Jan 08, 2009 11:19 am

first off, with edlers play so far i dont see him deserving any type of raise. second i think kaberle wouldnt fit, like really do we need anymore Leaves from last year here? does anyone else not remember how great they did last year? :| i say nathan horton would work well, or maybe we could give STL somethin cheap like raymond and a high pick for brad boyes? either way please no more Leaves
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Re: WHO should the Canucks get with their freed-up cap space?

Post by Farhan Lalji » Thu Jan 08, 2009 2:34 pm

Cookie La Rue wrote:Bringin' in is always good but who would you let go ? And it will be more than just Pyatt for example.

And does this one (or more) give you the right fit in return ? Not to say losing more than you gain.
For me, my package would still be Raymond and a 1st (and if Luongo and Sanford are back at 100%, probably Labarbera).

While I'd greatly prefer to keep Raymond over guys like Pyatt, Brown, etc., and also keep Labarbera over Sanford, the truth of the matter is that these guys should have some decent trade value if they keep the playing the way they have (or in Raymond's case, continue to show the promise that he's shown).

Having said that - I LOVE the way Labarbera has been playing. IF Luongo goes down with another injury later in the year (KNOCK ON WOOD), I would be comfortable with Labarbera based on the way he's playing. However - I wonder if Khabibulin would be worth getting just in case Luongo got re-injured? (or if Chicago would even be willing to deal him to Vancouver). Bulin won a Stanley Cup with Tampa and obviously knows how to play in the clutch. Would he be worth the investment just in case the unthinkable happens?

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Re: WHO should the Canucks get with their freed-up cap space?

Post by BingoTough » Thu Jan 08, 2009 4:48 pm

Farhan Lalji wrote:However - I wonder if Khabibulin would be worth getting just in case Luongo got re-injured? (or if Chicago would even be willing to deal him to Vancouver).
That's a bit like the Kings bringing in Brett Hull in case Gretzky went down...

Luongo's hurt during the cup (or goes out for the season), we kiss Stanley goodbye. Them's the breaks.

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Re: WHO should the Canucks get with their freed-up cap space?

Post by nucklehead88 » Thu Jan 08, 2009 4:59 pm

i dont see the boys pickin up bulin. we'd have to let too much go i.e. demitra or ohlund or something. plus why would chicago let him go? wouldnt they keep him for their own security down the strech? and nobody would trade anything more than a bag of pucks and some stick tape for pyatt. if we were going to try to pick up some offensive security we'll need to deal at least a decent player like raymond or hansen, a draft pick and maybe either sandford or labarbera. and it'll most likely come from a bottom feeder like florida or nashville. chicago woulndt help out team in the position they're in.
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Re: WHO should the Canucks get with their freed-up cap space?

Post by Island Nucklehead » Thu Jan 08, 2009 6:24 pm

C'mon guys, get real. We just got Labarbera for a 7th. Nobody is going to give us much for him. Ditto for Sanford. With goalies like 'Bulin and Fernandez and Kolzig on the market the asking price for a backup is zilch.

The Islanders are ripe for picking. I'd take Guerin or Weight off their hands as rentals. Weight only makes 1.75 so we could add some defensive help to replace Salo, who I'm not putting any more faith in to play back to back games.

To Vancouver: Weight/Guerin

To Long Island: Hansen, Gendur, 2nd.

As I said, I'd like to see us add another depth defenseman because I don't think Salo will finish the year after he comes back from his sandy crotch. Getting Malik out of TB wouldn't be tough, but if we wanted to hit the homerun and go for Kaberle it's going to cost something like this:

To Vancouver: Kaberle, 3rd.

To Toronto: Raymond, Schneider, 1st.

That's a lot, but keep in mind he's not a rental as he's signed for a reasonable amount (4+) through 10/11 and there is going to be a serious bidding war for this guy. With that being said, I'd probably rather go the Malik option and try to re-up Ohlund, saving our prospects for another trade.

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Re: WHO should the Canucks get with their freed-up cap space?

Post by Madcombinepilot » Thu Jan 08, 2009 7:20 pm

no way kaberle (and his contract ) is worth that much to us. we have 4 top 4 guys already for next year, and Kaberle is not better than all of them, so why pay him that way? We have cap space next year (if we sign right) to resign Ollie, and that gives us a great d corps. put a couple more O'Brien types in there and we are fine on the back end. if we trade for another D man this year, it's for another O'Brien type (a 5-6 d-man with heart, pride and has never won anything, so he will compete) to go to war for us in the playoffs so we don't have a Nycolate or davidson conundrum (we pick niether). On forward, our 3rd and 4th lines are full (or will be when Johnson, Rypien {however temporary he will be}, Pyatt come back). our depth is in our 3rd and 4th lines, so leave them alone. I think we are looking for the ever-elusive RW to play on either top line, but I for one hope we DONT sell the future and overpay for a rental. we must always mind the future or we will forever be a pretender.

looking at it from a dollars and cents view, we can't really afford to mortgage the future right now. we are just starting to get depth into the moose, and it has made us competative enough to hang onto a playoff spot since november. Do not underestimate the value of being to call up a guy to inject enthusiasm onto the ice. cycling through 4th liners to have guys who will do ANYTHING to play well does awesome things in the dressingroom. having one kid wanting to play is infectious. knowing that if you don't perform and could be sent down, is motivating. we didn't have that option for years and years, and look what it got us. this team has proved over and over that a poor farm team= no depth and no deep playoffs. build a perennial contender, not a flash in the pan, cinderella run.

We simply can't give up on guys like Schnieder or Raymond for 2 reasons.

1) they are products of our system. if our system can't produce players of value, we will never contend. proof of that is in the pudding. Look at our past. while we have had a few great guys come through our system, never had we had 7 or 8 guys at a time that could be called up.

2) younger players on thier first contract have a better chance of playing over thier contract value. if raymond is paid 800k and gets us 40 points, well according to some of you guys, a 40 point guy is worth 3.5 million. he has played over his payscale. if we want to have 5 legit stars (sedin, sedin, sundin, Luongo and whomever we need to trade for) we simply can't be paying everyone 5-6 million dollars. the trick to building a winning team today is to pay a team 50 million dollars and have them play like a 90 million dollar team. the team that most overplays it's payroll is going to win the cup. It's like that every year. pick the overachievers. the more young guys we have on the team making thier 1st contract, and playing like its thier third contract wins.
If we want to be a contender for years, we HAVE to have this.
If we want to be a cinderella, then its a simple crapshoot anyways (somebody is going to get hot and overachieve) so this thread is pointless.

I agree that another RW to play top two lines would be awesome, but we can't overpay to get him. we need to find a team that wants (or has) to dump salary (the one commodity we have) and work from there. giving up a first (50-50 decent prospect) and a couple prospects for 1 rental player is too much. its like giving away a potential entire 2nd line for 1 player (who only sticks with us for 3 months). not enough return.. no matter what. there is no one player who will guarantee a cup. I would rather trade pyatt and late pick for a 3rd liner who (with a change of scenery, different skilled linemates) might turn into a raffi tores from the edmonton run... or a Gelinas from the calgary/carolina runs. Overachievers. thats what wins. thats what we should be looking for. we already have the forward skill with danrik mats and Demitra. we need a one (two would be better) overachiever (Rypien could be that guy.. who knows??). To find that guy, we might move Pyatt, but whomever we move, we are moving a known roster quality (and by that I mean that we know exactly what Pyatt brings to the table) player (when I say known, Pyatt we NEVER overachieve with this team) for an unknown player...
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Re: WHO should the Canucks get with their freed-up cap space?

Post by Mikodat » Fri Jan 09, 2009 11:18 am

hard to make a call now.. but looks like all we need is 1 winger to be a serious contender.. another dman would be a bonus.. We are as strong down the center as we'll ever be. Sedin , Sundin, Kesler, Johnson... backed by Lou and Labarbra.. Sedin's Demitra line looks good.. Kesler/burrows/Bernier same.. question mark is really Raymond? if he doesn't start scoring goals. thats the spot we need to concentrate on. Looks to me like Pyatt might be the 4th liner to use with Hordi and Johnson.. So it gives us Hanson, Rypien,Jaffrey,Sandford,Nycholet or Davidson, Bolduc as spare parts.. Lots of depth in case of injury or trade bait if the right deal comes along. If its for a winger.. Raymond becomes spare parts.. Lots of options open. I'd like to see a trade for a decent veteran 2 way winger to replace Raymond on the Sundin line, plus a rental dman to replace Davison..
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Re: WHO should the Canucks get with their freed-up cap space?

Post by Farhan Lalji » Fri Jan 09, 2009 12:00 pm

Hey Madcombepilot,

Excellent post man. Very good counter-points.

You are right that a lot of teams that win the cup....or go far in the post-season, have many players that play way above their salary level and overachieve. The 50 mill team playing like a 90 mill team, was a good example. You also make a good point that just because we get a "top-tier" guy (at a higher salary), doesn't necessarily mean that we'd be a "lock" to win the cup.

Here's my biggest problem however:

With the economy in the shitter (and my gut feeling is that things WILL most likely get *way* worse), is it really farfetched to assume that the salary cap will go way down? If that happens, then can the Canucks really get better? The twins and Ohlund will get pay raises....and then what? Who else do we sign? CAN we sign anyone else? What happens to Sundin? etc., etc.

By no means do I want to sacrifice the future (for the reasons that you mentioned) but at the same time, I just don't know if the Canucks will be able to assemble a team of this calibre for quite sometime (and I guess THIS is the part that is highly debatable).

And to be honest Madcombepilot, you also have to consider the fact that are instances (LOTS of instances) where a young player's reputation precedes them.

In 2000 for instance - if I had suggested that the Canucks trade Holden, Allen, and a 1st for :::insert awesome player here:::: I would've been raked over the coals for being negligent of our future. Looking back on it however, perhaps it wouldn't have been such a bad idea?

With higher risks comes a higher potential for reward. I'm not saying that the Canucks give up Hodgson, Schneider, 1st round pick(s), and the kitchen sink. What I AM suggesting however, is that the Canucks (with a healthy Luongo, a non-rusty Sundin, and a relatively healthy line-up) are probably one player away from being AS GOOD as Detroit, San Jose, and Boston. Out of those three teams, we have the best goaltender.....and THAT deserves a serious look.

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Re: WHO should the Canucks get with their freed-up cap space?

Post by DonCherry4PM » Fri Jan 09, 2009 2:24 pm

First, MCP, very good post. Fully agree. As soon as we finally get some good prospects that have been developed in our system, everyone wants to trade them away for rentals. Obviously, we have all seen how successful teams like the wings trade away their best prospects to get talent and thus want to emulate their strategy for success.

I think impatience is one of the greatest flaws in the average Vancouver fan. Not that we don't have reason to want a cup now, but sometimes good things come to those that wait.
Farhan Lalji wrote:Hey Madcombepilot,
What I AM suggesting however, is that the Canucks (with a healthy Luongo, a non-rusty Sundin, and a relatively healthy line-up) are probably one player away from being AS GOOD as Detroit, San Jose, and Boston. Out of those three teams, we have the best goaltender.....and THAT deserves a serious look.
Farhan, can't say I agree, but guess it depends on the one player. Give me Ovechkin or Malkin or someone of that ilk and I would agree, but to say that while throwing in a Guerin or Weight is somewhat of a stretch.
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Re: WHO should the Canucks get with their freed-up cap space?

Post by Farhan Lalji » Fri Jan 09, 2009 3:11 pm

DonCherry4PM wrote: but sometimes good things come to those that wait.
And unfortunately, a lot of times it does NOT.

Case in point: Ottawa Senators the past 10+ years. The Vancouver Canucks from 1999 to 2005. There are many other examples. Sometimes - teams that wait for young players to develop....and develop....and develop....ultimately do nothing.

Since I brought up Ottawa, let me ask you this: If you had to choose between Ottawa's track record the past 10 years....compared to Carolina's...or even Tampa Bay's, who's would you rather have? Personally? I'd rather have Carolina's over Ottawa's. As dismal as Carolina were for a number of year's, the fact of the matter is that they won a cup....and ultimately, that's all that matters. Heck -even though Tampa Bay has become a joke, I would probably still choose their "track record" for the last 10 years over Ottawa's....because of their one cup victory.

As a Toronto Blue Jays fan, I can say the same thing. Even though the Jays have been a complete non-factor for 10+ years, it was still tremendous to see them win...back to back....in the mid 90's.

Bottom line? Winning or atleast making a "finals" appearance, is really the only thing that matters. Ask any die-hard San Jose Sharks fan. No one cares about 2nd and 3rd round appearances. Ask any Buffalo Bills or Atlanta Braves fan. They would trade almost ALL of their "winning" seasons for just ONE title win (although in Atlanta's case, they won once).

As it relates to the Canucks, we EASILY have the best goalie out of Detroit, Boston, and San Jose. That alone gives us as good a chance as any. Detroit and San Jose can ass-pound us all they want in the playoffs (just as Dallas did in 06/07)...but they still have to beat Luongo.

And really. Can you honestly say that Detroit and San Jose are THAT much better than the Canucks if we have a 100% healthy line-up? (or atleast upwards of 90%).

Wellwood-Sundin-Demitra
Sedin-Sedin-Raymond
Burrows-Kesler-Bernier
Hordichuk-Johnson-Pyatt

Mitchell-Edler
Bieksa-Ohlund
Salo-O'Brien

Luongo
Labarbera

(ignore the fact that my line combo's are way off for just a sec ;)).

Seriously though - I'm looking at a team, that when 90%+ healthy, has...

a) One of the best "1a" or "2nd" lines in the NHL (Sedin line).
b) One of the best 3rd lines in all of hockey
c) The best goalie in the NHL
d) With Sundin, potentially one of the best power plays in the NHL.

Let us not ignore the fact that before Luongo went down, the Canucks were 8 games over .500 and were scorching. In my opinion, if Luongo had not gone down with the injury, the Canucks would be about 16 games over .500 as of this writing.

One more point to mention: Rebuilding, if done correctly, doesn't take that long. After 05/06, everyone assumed that Burke had completely pissed away our future......to the point of no return. Lo and behold - our "future" and "farm" doesn't look nearly as shabby as once thought. On top of this, Nonis also pissed away some draft picks!

Anyway - that is my view on things. Winning...or atleast making a cup appearance....is the only thing that matters.

Die hard Canuck fans don't remember or care much about 06/07, the WCE era, or the early 90's. Die Hard Canuck fans remember and care about 1982 and 1994.

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