Going forward ?

Mikodat · Post by **Mikodat** » Sun Jul 13, 2008 4:30 am

Seems you guys are not giving enough credit to Kesler... remember he got the same amount of goals 5 on 5 as Daniel Sedin and more than Naslund.. and that was playing against oppositions top lines ... Just might be worth giving a shot at that fantasy second line and stick in Wellwood or ? on the third?

Sometimes I think this board listens to too much bs hype ... and doesn't actually see we have a top 2 way forward already on the Canucks ( think Bob Gainey ... hey days of the Canadians.. ) ... He is still young and is better each year... So if Sundin deal doesn't happen... should be put on the second line see if he can put up even better numbers... At least he's got the jam to go to the net.. unlike many Canucks ( you listening Daniel? Hendrik? )

MarkMM · Post by **MarkMM** » Sun Jul 13, 2008 9:24 am

Mikodat wrote:Seems you guys are not giving enough credit to Kesler... remember he got the same amount of goals 5 on 5 as Daniel Sedin and more than Naslund.. and that was playing against oppositions top lines ... Just might be worth giving a shot at that fantasy second line and stick in Wellwood or ? on the third?

Sometimes I think this board listens to too much bs hype ... and doesn't actually see we have a top 2 way forward already on the Canucks ( think Bob Gainey ... hey days of the Canadians.. ) ... He is still young and is better each year... So if Sundin deal doesn't happen... should be put on the second line see if he can put up even better numbers... At least he's got the jam to go to the net.. unlike many Canucks ( you listening Daniel? Hendrik? )

The problem is that I think he's invaluable as a checking centre and it might be harder to replace him on the shut-down line than it would be to find another second-line centre, who we have a few who might potentially slip into that role (Demitra, obviously, Wellwood, Shannon if he signs, hell, Hodgson if he surprises out of camp). If we had signed Lapointe or something, sure, we'd have a viable option to move Kesler up, but who would we put as the shut-down centre, Johnson? He'd be best, putting Wellwood there makes no sense, like Shannon, Wellwood either plays on an offensive line or he doesn't fit at all.

sic puppy · Post by **sic puppy** » Sun Jul 13, 2008 9:26 am

Mikodat wrote:Seems you guys are not giving enough credit to Kesler... remember he got the same amount of goals 5 on 5 as Daniel Sedin and more than Naslund.. and that was playing against oppositions top lines ... Just might be worth giving a shot at that fantasy second line and stick in Wellwood or ? on the third?

IF the line-up were set at training camp as it is today, that might be an option.

But, with the success that Kesler & Burrows had last year as a shut down line makes AVs choice of moving them up, slim IMO.

Again, IF...Sundin signs you're suggesting Kesler get more minutes than the Sedins ?

mr perfect · Post by **mr perfect** » Sun Jul 13, 2008 11:02 am

If Sundin doesn't sign here then I believe the lineup on opening night is going to look like this:

Sedin - Sedin - Bernier

Raymond - Demitra - Pyatt

Burrows - Kesler - Pettinger

Hordichuk - Johnson - Cowan

Wellwood - Rypien

Mitchell - Bieksa

Ohlund - Edler

Krajicek - Salo

Davison

Luongo

Sanford

Soon after, the line juggling will start. Basically this team will be no better than the team was last season after the Morrison injury and before Ohlund was injured. Throw in the fact Alain "Viggy Stardust" Vigneault is still behind the bench and will still have his team's offence consist of dumping the puck into the other team's end so Kesler's line and/or Johnson's line come out and meet their attack at full steam at center ice and the Canucks are going to have another season of low scoring with an injuried plagued defence, the same as what happened to Vancouver last season and with Viggy Stardust's teams his last few seasons in Montreal. The teams in the East figured out Viggy's system after one season and destroyed Montreal after that. History repeated itself in Vancouver last year, the Western teams have figured out Viggy's system.
For those of you who think Cowan is done, remember he's one of Viggy's favourites. VS had Cowan, Ritchie and Rypien on the ice for an offensive faceoff after an icing with four minutes left in the last Edmonton game with the Oilers ahead 2-1 and the Canucks facing elimination. That's right, three players who had at that point had three goals between them and had no business being on the ice at all in the third period were sent out on a very important faceoff at a critical time of the game. Viggy had complained all season that Trevor Linden and earlier, Kris Beech, weren't his type of fourth line players. Ryan Shannon is finished. VS purposely put him, a young forward, on the point for a powerplay against Philadelphia over Bieksa, Krajicek, Salo and Ohlund, all D-men with good puck handling skills who can work the point on a PP. Naturally, Shannon coughs up the puck, the Flyers score a shorthanded goal and Shannon gets sent to Manitoba, only to be brought up when injuries hit the team. Since Wellwood is a Gillis acquisition, he will be the Canucks 5th center and Shannon will be buried in the minors, soon to be traded for a late round draft pick. This bodes well for Cowan. Viggy Stardust likes underweight guys who can't fight and can't score but show "grit" (did Cowan show any last season?) on his 4th lines. I don't know how Hordichuk fits,unlike Viggy's favourites, he can fight.
In short, unless Sundin comes to this team, Vigneault is replaced, Raymond and Bernier have Naslund/Bertuzzi like breakout years, this team is destined to finish out of the playoffs again. Luongo's play will see to it they stay close most of the season but they will finish in the 9th to 11th spot in the West. It's up to Gillis, who set pretty high standards for himself when he trashed almost everything about the organization at his initial press conference, to follow though on the changes he promised to get this team into the post season. Right now this team is very Nonis-like.

Madcombinepilot · Post by **Madcombinepilot** » Sun Jul 13, 2008 11:20 am

It would seem to me like after MG came to the organization, and trashed the play of the team, that a purging of the team would be in order. I extected Naslund and Morrison to be gone. I expected replacements of the caliber we got.

I expected a bunch of new managment and office people.

I didn't expect AV to survive the purge.

To me, its almost like the new GM has left himself a preset fall guy in case of failure in his first year. If we suck at christmas, he can simply can AV, Blame the write off of the year on him and start fresh next fall.

The teams in the East figured out Viggy's system after one season and destroyed Montreal after that. History repeated itself in Vancouver last year, the Western teams have figured out Viggy's system.

This is a very intresting theory. I like how it sounds at first, with the suggesting that opposing teams understand how the canucks are coached in the defensive end and have adjusted thier attack to grind us considerably more, causing more injuries.... not sure if I believe it (yet), but I will be doing some looking into it for sure... intresting...

Linden Is God · Post by **Linden Is God** » Sun Jul 13, 2008 11:22 am

I really like the outlook of our D corps.

mr perfect · Post by **mr perfect** » Sun Jul 13, 2008 12:08 pm

Madcombinepilot wrote:It would seem to me like after MG came to the organization, and trashed the play of the team, that a purging of the team would be in order. I extected Naslund and Morrison to be gone. I expected replacements of the caliber we got.

I expected a bunch of new managment and office people.

I didn't expect AV to survive the purge.

To me, its almost like the new GM has left himself a preset fall guy in case of failure in his first year. If we suck at christmas, he can simply can AV, Blame the write off of the year on him and start fresh next fall.

The teams in the East figured out Viggy's system after one season and destroyed Montreal after that. History repeated itself in Vancouver last year, the Western teams have figured out Viggy's system.
This is a very intresting theory. I like how it sounds at first, with the suggesting that opposing teams understand how the canucks are coached in the defensive end and have adjusted thier attack to grind us considerably more, causing more injuries.... not sure if I believe it (yet), but I will be doing some looking into it for sure... intresting...

Like you MCP, I believe if Nonis, Morrison and Naslund were to bear the brunt of last season's collapse, so should Vigneault. His leadership behind the bench was missing last year, he kept grinding the team with practices well into March when the team was on the road most of that time. He admitted he probably had the team practice too much during that time and you have to question why a coach with 5 season's NHL head coaching experience was unaware and not in touch with the condition of his team. I don't know how many times in the second half of last season the Canucks were down a goal in the 3rd period and AV kept putting out his checking line. I don't have any problem with him insisting his players be sound defensively. I do have problems with him being so concerned about getting Kesler's and Ritchie's lines on the ice that the other lines had to dump the puck into the other teams' end and change to get those lines on the ice. I mean, once you have the F-ing puck, keep the F-ing puck, don't surrender it! It meant the other teams had 100 ft to move up ice while the Canucks checking lines were getting on the ice at the center red line. The Canucks rarely had up ice pressure. The opposition were able to attack the Canucks with full speed, dump the puck into Vancouver's end and take the body on the Canucks defence, wearing them down and causing injury. Then the forwards grinding the pucks along the boards in the Canucks end (Pyatt, Raymond) suffered season-ending injuries. Having seen Vigneault's history in Montreal, I don't believe the rash of injuries the Canucks suffered last season was a coincidence. I suspect year three under Viggy Stardust will be the same as year three was in Montreal under Viggy's regime. All this talk about him changing his style of play this season if he gets offensive players, "Like his pal Michel Therrien in Pittsburgh" I don't buy. I have yet to see Viggy able to coach offensive players.
As for Gillis, his biggest mistake is keeping Vigneault. He's being extremely dishonest in doing so. He wouldn't have hired Ryan Walter to keep an eye on Vigneault which shows he has doubts about the man. You don't think the players will see through that and it won't cause dissension in the dressing room knowing Walter's there to spy on Vigneault? Gillis should fish or cut bait. Make the coaching change now.

sic puppy · Post by **sic puppy** » Sun Jul 13, 2008 1:18 pm

mr perfect wrote:If Sundin doesn't sign here then I believe the lineup on opening night is going to look like this:

Sedin - Sedin - Bernier

Raymond - Demitra - Pyatt

Burrows - Kesler - Pettinger

Hordichuk - Johnson - Cowan

Wellwood - Rypien

Not sure I would agree. If Sundin just says NO, Gillis will have a "next plan", IMO.

If for no other reason than he needs a "bigger" influence on that 2nd line.

Certainly Demitra at center makes the line better on paper than Wellwood at center, however, IMO it almost defeats the reason of bringing Demitra here.

Vancouver has lacked a legitimate RW presence since Carter left. While Pyatt filled in admirably, he was still on his off wing with the Sedins. Demitra has expressed his desire to play his "natural" position.

One of the weaknesses in the Nux line-up, IMO is having players play out of their natural position. Especially on the top 2 lines which are typically your go-to offense players.

Altho' Gillis has commented about players being versatile, it is not a strength to have your most talented guys bouncing around on their off wing. Similar to AVs penchance to mix & match linemates.

If Sundin does NOT sign, and this is the team going into Sept., I agree, this team is very Nonis-like.

Blob Mckenzie · Post by **Blob Mckenzie** » Tue Jul 15, 2008 5:18 pm

[quote="mr perfect"]

Soon after, the line juggling will start. Basically this team will be no better than the team was last season after the Morrison injury and before Ohlund was injured.

And it certainly won't be any worse either. Demitra and Bernier will most likely equal the output of Naslund and Morrison. Furthermore Gillis still has $10,000,000.00 to spend. Whether or not it's Sundin or another player(s) I would be willing to bet this team looks a bit better than Chunky's squad of 07-08 come October.

randymeeks · Post by **randymeeks** » Tue Jul 15, 2008 7:22 pm

And it certainly won't be any worse either. Demitra and Bernier will most likely equal the output of Naslund and Morrison. Furthermore Gillis still has $10,000,000.00 to spend. Whether or not it's Sundin or another player(s) I would be willing to bet this team looks a bit better than Chunky's squad of 07-08 come October.

Once again, you read my mind, Blob. I find it ridiculous that we have some people trashing Viggy right now. We had a terrible group of top 6 forwards and it was probably the worst collection of top 6 forwards in the league when Morrison went down to injury.

It's pretty hard to coach players who don't have enough talent. When that happens, you rely on your third and fourth liners to provide a spark they just aren't qualified to provide. Don't forget how terrible our so-called first line was. The Sedins were invisible and had something like 6 goals down the stretch in their final 18 games. And we didn't even really have a second line after Morrison was gone.