Mike Gillis inability to make trades?

[mattola]

lots of forums are talking about TSN and Sportsnet panels talking about how other GMs are making it very difficult for Gillis to make trades. They are saying that the GMs are sending over under value offers and asking for over value returns for trades.

If this is the case is it because

A) he is a former agent that pissed off alot of GMS over time
or
B) a rookie GM making mistakes in dealing with experienced GMS
or
C) all of the above

I think its C) I also think that if this is the case then we are in trouble for trying to make a deadline deal to push us to the top assuming we are even there in the next 2 years.

If the rumors are we will be signing Demtira, and trading for Nylander (both in their mid 30's) would that be enough to keep Naslund for one more year?

does that really give us an edge in offense? Nylander only played 40 games last year. (15-JAN-08 SHOULDER SURGERY, REMAINDER OF THE REGULAR SEASON.)

that is a significant injury for a 35 year old player.

if this is where our targets are going to be for offense I will be worried.

but we will see in 9 days and counting.

[BingoTough]

I suspect part of the problem is owing to pre-existing problems. The canucks weaknesses are well known, and so the relative value of a player might well go up (i.e. we need the trade more than the counterparty).

Plus, our prospect cupboard is bare.

If it were me, I'd go after UFAs to fill most of my gaps, then try for some trades.

[jchockey]

I'd also say C. But is there anyone else out there that agrees with me that when Gillis sounds absolutely clueless in press conferences? He lacks conviction and direction when he talks. Nonis was better in that department.

[Sid Dithers]

I'm having a hard time with Gillis' comment in the Province today stating that "we want to win as quickly as possible but it's tough to get those players".

No kidding, Mike.

Suddenly he's not sounding quite so assured as he did when he sat in the big chair on day 1 and said there would be many significant changes. He's finding out that the game is a whole lot tougher than he imagined. I'm not down on him, but if he wants to deliver an improved team, he's going to need to get real creative, real fast. I get the idea that he's slipping into the 'drive in the right direction at 5 MPH mode' that Nonis was stuck in.

If the rumors are we will be signing Demtira, and trading for Nylander (both in their mid 30's) would that be enough to keep Naslund for one more year?

I don't want Naslund back. He's a severely declined player. Re-signing him (for any amount) is like throwing up the white flag and saying that we haven't got any better ideas than to remain with the same gang who haven't got us anywhere in the past. This is about going forward. Re-upping Nazzy is NOT going forward. I'd rather see a kid with some promise in there, instead of some aging, part of the past. That's bad for moral. If having some young, enthusiastic kids in the lineup is a breath of fresh air, then what is keeping tired, weakening vets? No disrespect intended to Nazzy, but this is a tough business and good organizations are able to make the tough decisions.

[Arbour]

Any GM worth his salt is not going to cut off his nose to spite his face. If the Canucks have something other teams really want, and in turn Gillis sees a way to better the Canucks, a deal will be done. It may be they try to low ball the new kid on the block but if they have dealt with Gillis as an agent they are probably quite aware that is not going to work.

I would suspect most teams are waiting to see how the free agent market shakes down before committing themselves to moving significant roster players. Generally, (although not always) the draft is about dealing for picks. Gillis has indicated that he is in no way finished and given the state of the Canucks it wouldn't suprise me that moves may occur during the season as well.

[MarkMM]

Any GM worth his salt is not going to cut off his nose to spite his face. If the Canucks have something other teams really want, and in turn Gillis sees a way to better the Canucks, a deal will be done. It may be they try to low ball the new kid on the block but if they have dealt with Gillis as an agent they are probably quite aware that is not going to work.

I would suspect most teams are waiting to see how the free agent market shakes down before committing themselves to moving significant roster players. Generally, (although not always) the draft is about dealing for picks. Gillis has indicated that he is in no way finished and given the state of the Canucks it wouldn't suprise me that moves may occur during the season as well.

Agreed, with the exception of extreme circumstances (Lowe and Burke, Nonis and Clarke...well, that one resolved itself) I'd think GM's will make trades based on if it could help them win the Cup, keep their job and get a raise, business is business. Does trust developed after years of working with GM's or distrust after bad deals influence things? I'm sure it does, but I think the biggest reason we're not making deals is that our cupboard, while not completely bare, isn't stocked enough to be an asset from which to trade from, for the same reaason we can't part with picks, the players currently on the payroll for next season are needed, and about the only asset we've got going for us this coming year is a whack load of cap space, which isn't really what you trade with.

I do think Gillis will make some moves, but we shouldn't be judging his trades this early into the summer.

[the Cunning Linguist]

I have to think that GMMG isn't naive enough to think that he can make a deal 'just like that'... He has to understand that there are two sides to an agreement, and unless and until he has a trading partner worth the effort, none will 'just happen'. We also have to consider the tragic loss of Bourdon - if I were GMMG, that makes BXA far less tradeable (even though he is one of the few assets left to trade); and now we have to hope that he returns to form and quickly. So in GMMG's eyes, a trade that might look acceptable had he had a good #5/6 option in Bourdon six weeks ago now looks worse.

I dunno that many GMs will avoid trading with Vancouver because they're upset with GMMG - as others have said, business is business and no one held a gun to them when they signed Bobby Holik to an offer sheer for a kajillion dollars for a bazillion years.

In reality, a 'good' trade for both parties is one in which each side thinks they are getting a better deal coming to them than they are giving up in return. So it could very well be that the value he would receive is less than what he thinks he's giving up.

[ClamRussel]

The thing I find interesting is what MG had to say about the 'bad deals' coming in and how they were so 'close' to other deals, made better offers etc but fell short.

Sounds exactly like DN at last yrs trade deadline.

[dr.dork]

I have to think that GMMG isn't naive enough to think that he can make a deal 'just like that'...

He is going to find out awfully quick that you can't build a team through free agency and you can't build a team entirely through trades (although it was close in the WCE era).

Steady as she goes, 5 MPH ahead is not a bad plan, as long as you have the drafting and player development plan in place. But he can't do that, because that was the Nonis plan (although I give MG credit for more lip service on the player development angle).

We will see how he does in the free agency period, but he will either severely overpay or do nothing. Severely overpaying may be worse if it gets him into a bind down the road.

Personally, I believe he will overpay, mainly because he was likely telling the waterman's that Nonis was failing to acquire talent, and the only way now for him to acquire talent is to severely overpay (and agents and other GMs are salivating). Overpaying flies in the face of his moneypuck ideas, but we will see.

Nonis got fired for being patient. If nothing else, Gillis knows he cannot be patient, and 29 other GMs know that.

So my long winded answer is:

(D) He doesn't want to overpay, but he is doomed to overpay. He is used to negotiating from a position of strength (player agent) and now he is negotiating from a position of weakness.

He will overpay post July 1st, or otherwise the owners will start fidgeting and someone will start whispering in their ear about what is wrong. But I don't care if he overpays, as long as it isn't a stupid long contract that handcuffs us forever.

[Larry Goodenough]

To me, Gillis initially came across as brash and overconfident. He had clear opinions and came right out and said this team is not good enough and it needs to get offensively better and quickly, while Luongo was around.

He essentially implied previous management was not good enough and he would make things right.

Now he has to back up what he previously said and he's finding it alot harder than he thought. While a number of trades for offensive guys are made at the draft, he's left holding the bag.

He says Jokinen is not his kind of player. Well, he's Wayne Gretzky's kind of player. Who's opinion holds more water for you. Wayne Gretzky, or a player agent.

Now he's quoted in the Province as saying "it's tough to get those players"?

Come on man. If you came in with a humble attitude and said you woud just come in with a new approach, I'd give you the benefit of the doubt. Instead, you came off as a brash know it all and now you're starting to look like you're a stiff who is getting frozen out by previous GMs you've pissed off.

I'm starting to worry.

[Jovorock]

lots of forums are talking about TSN and Sportsnet panels talking about how other GMs are making it very difficult for Gillis to make trades. They are saying that the GMs are sending over under value offers and asking for over value returns for trades.

.

That's all bullshit, this is a profession, you will deal with the devil or your worst friend to better your team. They might try to take advantage, but Gillis has been around too long to jump into anything too stupid like a "experienced" GM like Mad Mike has.

[Fred]

Who here can say what happens within a small exclusive gathering of business folks in the NHL. However what I can do is consider the parallel between the busness NHL and my own busuness deals. Any one in business can tell that I would estimate 90% of all deals has a personell aspect to it. Unless of course your career is selling loafs of bread It only makes sense. The chance of making any sort of deal is much more liekly to to occur with the people you associate with, just in the time elelment alone. People you meet for lunch, people you feel have integrity and are trust worthy, maybe go out with after work, the actual time you spend with these people make it much more likely.

From all reports MG has stiffed a few GM's around the league. Although I don't know the details there is rarely smoke without fire. The question is how long can you perform your job well with a group of people that despise you. If there are two opitions for another GM make a deal, which one does he give first consideration to assuming they are equal or even a little tilted in MG direction ( Camalerri for instance) at what point does a GM hold his nose and say I'll take the MG offer. Percentage wise it's more often to work to MG detrement, law of averages. If there is a short list of people that won't deal with him, that in it's self reduces the number of opitions for the Canucks, and frankly there is more than likely another list who may not come out and say as much but will forever consider MG as opition (B)
Gillis can be as briliant as he insists, but the last time I looked it takes two to tango and the number of possible dnace partners unfortuntitly are less for the Canucks than many other team in the same league.
Good luck MG but I suspect it won't be long before we are saying RIP MG.

The worse part of this is the Aqualinni family, they too are purported to be business men and of all the dwarfs we were handed by the family I suspect we were given Dopy. He should of known the difficult task that would result with his selection of new GM and either he iddn't understand or MG has photos

[OCWilson]

In the relatively short amount of time Gillis has been GM, I am very impressed with the moves he has made. He is getting the overall Canucks management structure in order. I believe he has his priorities straight. Last time I checked, the vast majority of GMs have not made a trade of significance. I am greatly relieved after viewing the offers we had for our #10 we DID NOT take them. I can't remember ever feeling this good about a Canuck's draft.

There appear to me many differences in Gillis over Nonis. However, the most glaring is still that Nonis should have addressed our top 6 scoring weakness before last season started. Who the heck did not know we needed help in that department. Secondly, team grit and a legitamate heavey weight so other teams would stay away from Luongo and stop running our D every chance they get.

If there is any problem with MG's ability to deal with other GM's because of his past I personally feel it is very small and of no real liability. It is like dealing with a bank, they say they want to be your buddy, but in the end it is 99.5% about the numbers.

[Fred]

I am greatly relieved after viewing the offers we had for our #10 we DID NOT take them. I can't remember ever feeling this good about a Canuck's draft.

There appear to me many differences in Gillis over Nonis. However, the most glaring is still that Nonis should have addressed our top 6 scoring weakness before last season started. Who the heck did not know we needed help in that department.


Secondly, team grit and a legitamate heavey weight so other teams would stay away from Luongo and stop running our D every chance they get.

If there is any problem with MG's ability to deal with other GM's because of his past I personally feel it is very small and of no real liability. It is like dealing with a bank, they say they want to be your buddy, but in the end it is 99.5% about the numbers.

First pretty tough for DN to make a deal ( as MG is finding out) if you're at the top of Cap level. It's made a lot more difficult if you have to deal with the enemy all the time

A goon should be within MG capabilities.

It's not at all like dealing with a bank, banks deal with a continuous flow of fundamentally un-named faces that just keep rolling through. The NHL is a small exlusive group of powerful business men, all of whom have long memories. If you ever screw with these folks, word of advise keep your back firmly to the wall at all times, you know the reply is enroute

[OCWilson]

Wow, you clearly have it out for MG Fred. You have from the very start. I just don't see him the same way as you. I believe it is simply way to early to judge him. So, if MG does not get 2 or 3 of this summers UFA's that are half way decent is he incompetent?

I am refering to dealing with bankers on a corporate level and down here it does work that way.