Jokinen Potential

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Madcombinepilot
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Post by Madcombinepilot »

and do the Canucks have a realistic chance to dominate come July 1 free agent season
I don't think the Canucks want to 'dominate' the july one season, I think we teams that go overboard on july one tend to overpay for overhyped players and get dominated throughout the season. a couple of smart signings, (not a re-tooling of 4th line pluggers) and a good trade is what the Nux need.
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Canuck-One
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Post by Canuck-One »

Hi and welcome to the board. I was just glancing at Demitra's record and it appears as though he has a concussion problem and that it has been slowing him down somewhat, so I'm not sure we should go after him. Hossa also is getting older and is a soft player although he has an immense skill level. I do like Malone a big strong guy who can score, his only drawback is he isn't the swiftest skater but meh I can overlook that. I don't know too much about Stillman so I can't comment on him. Jokinen is a good centre and is a friend of Luongo's so he would help there is no doubt about that. As to trading both Sedin's for him,nope, this trade would have to grow and include Horton from their end and then we would have to add a touch from our end. I don't see it being done but we got Luongo so who knows eh.
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Post by Farhan Lalji »

Two potential positives (for Vancouver) if the Sedin's get traded for Jokinen:

1) Lowering of the payroll (albeit, not by very much).

2) A greater chance of having a wider variety of linemates on the top line. With the twins right now, the "ideal" linemate is one that can get go to the net, play RW, and can grind it out. Someone that is speedier and softer (i.e. Marian Hossa), may not fit. If you get Jokinen here, you can have a wider variety of different RW'ers. Furthermore - if Naslund sticks around, he can go back to playing LW on the top line (although to be honest, I'd rather not have Naslund back unless the WCE in its entirety came back...which won't and probably shouldn't happen). If a guy like Jokinen comes, it might serve as a greater chance in attracting other top forwards (i.e. Hossa, or a LW'ed Brendan Shanahan).

3) Have the Sedin's become too predictable? Perhaps an argument can be made that it has become much easier to play against the twins...since they are somewhat predictable. As it relates to the Northwest Divison, opposing coaches probably know the twins very well. If you get someone like Jokinen here (and add a guy like Hossa for instance), the Canucks would have a #1 line that would be unfamiliar to opposing coaches.
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Post by jchockey »

Farhan Lalji wrote:Two potential positives (for Vancouver) if the Sedin's get traded for Jokinen:

1) Lowering of the payroll (albeit, not by very much).

2) A greater chance of having a wider variety of linemates on the top line. With the twins right now, the "ideal" linemate is one that can get go to the net, play RW, and can grind it out. Someone that is speedier and softer (i.e. Marian Hossa), may not fit. If you get Jokinen here, you can have a wider variety of different RW'ers. Furthermore - if Naslund sticks around, he can go back to playing LW on the top line (although to be honest, I'd rather not have Naslund back unless the WCE in its entirety came back...which won't and probably shouldn't happen). If a guy like Jokinen comes, it might serve as a greater chance in attracting other top forwards (i.e. Hossa, or a LW'ed Brendan Shanahan).

3) Have the Sedin's become too predictable? Perhaps an argument can be made that it has become much easier to play against the twins...since they are somewhat predictable. As it relates to the Northwest Divison, opposing coaches probably know the twins very well. If you get someone like Jokinen here (and add a guy like Hossa for instance), the Canucks would have a #1 line that would be unfamiliar to opposing coaches.
That's three points there, Farhan.

1 - I think the move could save us a lot of money. The Sedins will definitely be looking for a $5m+ contract, and that's including a hometown discount.

2 - This is a great point. I've said this before, but having the Sedins does not give us very much flexibility on the top two lines. Because they can't play without one another, your options for a RW are very, very limited.

3 - Another good point. For whatever reason, the Sedins refuse to or are unable to play any other style than the cycle. That's not to say the cycle is ineffective, I'd argue they're one of the best in the league at doing that, but it's hard to dominate when you're passing the puck all the time and counting on checking line wingers like Taylor Pyatt to score the goals. The Sedins aren't explosive hockey players, and I really think that's what we're missing.
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Post by tantalum »

Farhan Lalji wrote:Two potential positives (for Vancouver) if the Sedin's get traded for Jokinen:

1) Lowering of the payroll (albeit, not by very much).
How does it lower the payroll? Jokinen replaces Henrik and increases the cap hit for the next season at that position by $1.5 mil. Cap hit is likely a saw off going foward after next year.

And then you have to replace a 75-80 point winger. That winger is going to be making similar money of not more money than Daniel Sedin.

It won't lower the payroll at all. And likely it would increase the payroll and still have the same holes to fill at the end of the day.
3) Have the Sedin's become too predictable? Perhaps an argument can be made that it has become much easier to play against the twins...since they are somewhat predictable. As it relates to the Northwest Divison, opposing coaches probably know the twins very well. If you get someone like Jokinen here (and add a guy like Hossa for instance), the Canucks would have a #1 line that would be unfamiliar to opposing coaches.
Most offensive players are pretty darn predictable when it comes down to it...the ones that aren't superstars. They do what they do yet every game they generate chance after chance. They are good at what they do and they have good offensive creativity...the problem is the linemate usually doesn't have the same creativity and is 2 steps behind. This is a problem in every area of the ice and on the rush.

I still find it very funny people think Jokinen is a better player. He isn't. He has holes in his game. He goes into slumps and above all he has NEVER been on a playoff team. Along with Horton he has led the offence of non-playoff teams. An offence that isn't any more potent than the canucks offence. And why is that? Because that offence also has no secondary scoring beyond two players.

So you trade the twins for Jokinen and this is what you get:

1) you've traded 2 players that are each of equal or very near equal quality to the 1 player you got back.
2) you've traded for a player that can't carry an offence any better with a pretty decent winger in Horton than the two you just traded him for
3) he's never been in the playoffs and has no idea how the competition level increases and given the same holes are still present Jokinen in the same position as the twins also gets shut down.
4) you created yet another hole in the top 6

you gain maybe some speed and maybe a little grit (though i'm not convinced that Jokinen has a bunch more grit at all)....but is it worth it?

To me the better solution is to compliment a Sedin line with another line centered by a Jokinen type player.
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Post by MinnesotaCanuck »

Totally agree with Tant on all fronts. Everyone seems to forget that moving a player means you must fill his roster spot.
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Post by rockalt »

I'd give a longer response but Tantalum beat me to it. I also agree that trading the Sedins straight up for Jokinen is a terrible idea. Jokinen's pretty good fine but it's not like he's a top 10 player in the league. I don't even know how much better he is than either Sedin! Not to mention he's older than them and has never played on a winner. I'd only consider trading the Sedins straight up for a superstar, a la Crosby, Lecavalier, etc... but that's probably not going to happen. Seriously the Sedins are once again becoming the whipping boys of this organization (you have to love us fans) but they haven't exactly had much to work with. Trading them means creating two more holes in a nonexistant top 6.
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Post by Soapy »

1 huh?
2 wha?
3 Really...
4 honestly
5 my sister would never do that
6 that is not my dog
7 smell my finger
8 I hate stuff that is BS
9 salary cap...you mean I've been wearing this celery cap for nothing??
10 Farhan drinks bong water
11 The Sedins suck but I was watching Getzlaf, Heatly & Nash run the same cycle...it was soooo weird when Canadians do it ...its some how AWSOME!!!!
12 the 10 year old chemistry?? Naslund, Ohlund & Linden...ya right change it up
we should get rid of Noonan, Zezel & Larry Courville too.....what are you talking about??
13 Feel lucky punk........ :mex:
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tantalum
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Post by tantalum »

morrison1980 wrote:2 Farhan and I never said that the Sedin's would be traded straight up for Jokinen, I mentioned a package either pick or player along with the main asset in Jokinen.

etc etc etc
You mentioned a pick or player coming back the other way and phrased it as a throw in to the deal and not a major part indicating to me that indeed you were advocating trading two top line players for 1. By doing so you've opened up another hole. I think my point still stands.
Soapy wrote: 11 The Sedins suck but I was watching Getzlaf, Heatly & Nash run the same cycle...it was soooo weird when Canadians do it ...its some how AWSOME!!!!
This is a point I've tried to make a number of times before. These so called exciting teams with an exciting offence cycle, cycle, and cycle some more as well. There is a reason Crosby is one of the best board players in the game (along with malkin)...it's because they play along the boards cycling the puck a good chunk of the time!

I've seen nothing that suggests the twins can't score on the rush if they have a winger who can actually anticipate an offensive chance and/or a blueline with some foot speed to join the rush. They do not have the best foot speed but they are great at delaying to find the trailing man and great at passing to get the puck to a linemate.

And really it goes to what AV said at the post-mortem....the Pens play the same system. The difference is the abundance of offensive talent they have. Players better at anticipating plays, players better at finishing plays. It seems to me the best way to address the offensive problems of the team is to address the 4 current top 6 holes the team has (I can't consider Raymond top 6 material yet), instead of creating another hole in that top 6.

Again I'm not against trading the twins at all. I just think you have to be very careful in doing so, and you must do so in a way that does not create extra holes in the top 6 and doesn't make it impossible to address the remaining holes. 4 is already a hefty number to address....and IMO a big reason why Nonis is no longer GM. He failed to start addressing the problem that was obvious the moment he made the Luongo deal.

In the end I think people have to be careful what they wish for...an offence led by Jokinen and some other player will likely not be anymore effective than one led by Henrik and Daniel if Jokinen and partner have the same crap on their line and behind them in the lineup. You need to add to the top 6 not just swap one part out for a different but ulitmately equally effective part.
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Post by the Cunning Linguist »

Very well put, tant...

And please, enough talk about bringing back the WCE.
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