Calgary Flames of 2-3 years ago.....vs. the way they are now

Welcome to the main forum of our site. Anything and everything to do with the Vancouver Canucks is dicussed and debated here.

Moderator: Referees

Post Reply
Farhan Lalji

Calgary Flames of 2-3 years ago.....vs. the way they are now

Post by Farhan Lalji »

Calgary Flames of 2-3 years ago.....vs. the way they are now

Just a point I'd like to make: In your opinion, are the Flames a better team NOW......or are were they a better team 2-3 years ago? (actually - 2-4 years ago since 3 years ago, there was no NHL ;)).

The REASON why I pose this question, is because I believe the Calgary Flames were BETTER 2 seasons ago (and also 4 years ago when the Flames went to the Cup), DESPITE the fact that they were more OFFENSIVELY CHALLENGED.

I think the above is an important point to consider:

-Basically, if I understand correctly, the Flames tried to improve their team by adding more offensive weapons....and playing a more "open style." As result, the Flames HAVE in fact, scored more goals the past few years, but have also regressed in my opinion.

Let's take a look at the Canucks (comparing this year to last year). Last year - the Canucks played an ultra-defensive style, played within their limits, and excelled as a result. This year? The Canucks deviated from that style and tried to "open things up" a little (ironically enough, their GF were lower this year than last). In the end - the Canucks regressed from last season.

I guess the point I'm trying to make, is that teams should be careful when making changes. Just because you are making changes, doesn't mean you are getting better. Furthermore - it's VERY important that you are not depleting strengths to fill weaknesses.

Calgary's MAJOR trump card a few years ago, was their unmatchable work ethic, their team defense, and toughness. By opting to play a more offensive style (and bringing in some more offensive players), I think all 3 of these qualities of the Calgary Flames were sacrificed to a certain extent......and it hurt them. I think an argument could have been made that if Calgary had PRESERVED their original strengths (and if anything, add even MORE to these already existing strengths), then they may have been even better the past 2 seasons....instead of regressing.

As it relates to the Canucks, we already have a world class goalie, and a very deep defense (provided that they are healthy).

Why not find a way to BUILD around these strengths?

I guess a large part of my annoyance (which has also lead to me making some absurd proposals these past few weeks ;)), is the fact that EVERYONE...

a) Wants the Canucks to trade some of our defensive assets for help up front
b) Wants the Canucks to play a more offensive (open) style of game

without considering the fact that by doing this, there could be some negative ramifications.

Instead of depleting our defensive strength for offensive help (a potential zero sum game), why not PRESERVE our defensive strength....or dare I say, even ADD to that? (to the point that it becomes a suffocating strength....similar to New Jersey of yester-year).

Instead of wanting the Canucks to sign "big name offensive stars" (which in effect, would more than likely make our pitiful offense into just an AVERAGE one), why not focus on creating DEPTH up front?

Why not....

a) PRESERVE our defensive strength core...and if anything, ADD to it.

b) Focus on building 4 solid lines up front, instead of being pressured to bring in a SUPERSTAR right winger for the Sedin twins ($$$$$$$$$) or a SUPERSTAR center for Naslund if he returns ($$$$$$$$$$$).

By doing this, I believe that the Canucks may actually be BETTER......instead of being "different" (like the Calgary Flames for instance.....or how we are compared to the way we were 2 years ago).

Anyway - just my $0.02.
User avatar
sk8er
CC 2nd Team All-Star
Posts: 475
Joined: Fri Sep 02, 2005 8:46 am
Location: in my computer

Post by sk8er »

sorry, but who gives a shit? i hate the Flames with every fibre of my being, notwithstanding the gesture they made to Trevor.
I hope they burn and die.........
Joe Rockhead
CC 2nd Team All-Star
Posts: 468
Joined: Sun Oct 28, 2007 11:19 pm
Location: North Delta

Post by Joe Rockhead »

Flames suck!! I hope there gone in five!!! The feel good for minutes is up and the flames are hated again.
Don Cherry for P.M.
User avatar
mattola
Moderator & MVP
Moderator & MVP
Posts: 1853
Joined: Mon Aug 09, 2004 11:44 am

Post by mattola »

their fans really impressed me tonight with the sea of red. I was amazed how that impact hit me watching TV and seeing all those red shirts and jersies.

I would love to see a sea of blue next year.

I would love to hear that noise again.

this off season sucks arse.
Farhan Lalji

Post by Farhan Lalji »

sk8er wrote:sorry, but who gives a shit? i hate the Flames with every fibre of my being, notwithstanding the gesture they made to Trevor.
I hope they burn and die.........
I appreciate your "valuable" contribution to this thread. :roll: :P

The only reason why I mentioned the Calgary Flames, is because I see a similarity between their past situation.....and what we (CANUCKS) face now. A few years ago, Calgary made a choice to deplete their defensive prowess (along with other players that were known for their toughness and/orr work ethic), for players that had greater offensive talent.

Result? The Flames did NOT get better. In my opinion, they actually regressed.

The Canucks have a team with a world class goalie and a deep defense. In my opinion, it would be a HUGE mistake for the Canucks to use some of our defensemen as trade bait for an upgrade on offense. THAT is the argument that I am making (and used the Calgary Flames as an example, because I saw a similarity).

Great teams MAINTAIN their strength in my opinion. Great team do NOT deplete their strength, in order to fill a weakness......because more often than not, doing that does NOT make the team BETTER....it just makes the team different (as the Calgary Flames have found out).

If it was up to me, I would strongly consider maintain our defensive corps/prowess (and if anything, strengthen it even further). Up front, I would put more emphasis on having 4 solid lines (as opposed to looking for ONE or TWO big named superstars).
User avatar
sk8er
CC 2nd Team All-Star
Posts: 475
Joined: Fri Sep 02, 2005 8:46 am
Location: in my computer

Post by sk8er »

yeah, sorry to derail your intent, i just hate reading anything about the flames, whether it relates to the Canucks or not.........
User avatar
Cornuck
Moderator & MVP
Moderator & MVP
Posts: 9751
Joined: Mon Aug 09, 2004 11:39 am
Location: Everywhere

Post by Cornuck »

mattola wrote:their fans really impressed me tonight with the sea of red. I was amazed how that impact hit me watching TV and seeing all those red shirts and jersies.
Washington was a 'sea of red' yesterday as well.

As for the original thread, I see your point, but we the 2 pieces we need (Triplet and Naslund 'co-talent') are badly needed to make this team able to roll four lines. Maybe not superstars, but definitely first line players.
Doc: "BTW, Donny was right, you're smug."
User avatar
jchockey
MVP
MVP
Posts: 1551
Joined: Mon Aug 09, 2004 8:46 am
Location: Vancouver, BC

Post by jchockey »

The biggest difference between Vancouver and Calgary is one Jarome Iginla.
User avatar
mr perfect
MVP
MVP
Posts: 642
Joined: Thu Apr 27, 2006 12:32 pm
Location: perfectville

Post by mr perfect »

jchockey wrote:The biggest difference between Vancouver and Calgary is one Jarome Iginla.
No, the bigest difference is GM Darryl Sutter. He knows what he needs for his team and goes out to get it. Iginla won the scoring title in 2002 but the Flames didn't make the playoffs that season or the next. When Sutter took over he went out and got Kiprasoff to play goal over Roman Turek and the Flames became a playoff team. Burke never got a goaltender in the WCE era Canucks to make them contend and if he had, Crawford would have let that goalie rot on the bench behind Cloutier. Nonis wanted to build a defensive team and traded for Luongo but he has no idea what he wants or needs for forwards. His acquisitions on the front lines have been a hodge-podge of non physical, low scoring perimeter players whom Vigneault has had do nothing but fall back behind the red line in his drift net D. Take a look at the Brunnstrom signing, if it is true. Maybe he is talented but he looks to be a playmaking winger, not a scorer and aren't the Canucks already loaded with left wingers who can't score? Where are the centers and right wingers for this team? Trade Cooke, whose natural position is left wing for Pettinger whose position is also left wing? Where is Nonis' planning? Does he even have a plan?
User avatar
jchockey
MVP
MVP
Posts: 1551
Joined: Mon Aug 09, 2004 8:46 am
Location: Vancouver, BC

Post by jchockey »

mr perfect wrote:
jchockey wrote:The biggest difference between Vancouver and Calgary is one Jarome Iginla.
No, the bigest difference is GM Darryl Sutter. He knows what he needs for his team and goes out to get it. Iginla won the scoring title in 2002 but the Flames didn't make the playoffs that season or the next. When Sutter took over he went out and got Kiprasoff to play goal over Roman Turek and the Flames became a playoff team. Burke never got a goaltender in the WCE era Canucks to make them contend and if he had, Crawford would have let that goalie rot on the bench behind Cloutier. Nonis wanted to build a defensive team and traded for Luongo but he has no idea what he wants or needs for forwards. His acquisitions on the front lines have been a hodge-podge of non physical, low scoring perimeter players whom Vigneault has had do nothing but fall back behind the red line in his drift net D. Take a look at the Brunnstrom signing, if it is true. Maybe he is talented but he looks to be a playmaking winger, not a scorer and aren't the Canucks already loaded with left wingers who can't score? Where are the centers and right wingers for this team? Trade Cooke, whose natural position is left wing for Pettinger whose position is also left wing? Where is Nonis' planning? Does he even have a plan?
Nonis deserves some of the blame, I agree, but when he's sitting up on the press box the onus is on the players to perform to the best of their abilities and lead the team. That did not happen this year, because I sincerely believe that the Sedins and Naslund could've played much, much better. At times they seem indifferent on the ice.

Nonis has said that this year's team is a lot better than last year's, and I agree. For the first time he will have cap room this summer, so it really remains to be seen what Nonis' grand master plan is.

The one trait that Naslund lacks completely is Iginla's will to carry the team on his shoulders. A decade ago, that player was Trevor Linden, and he will never match up to Naslund or Iginla in terms of skill, but regardless he was willing to fight no matter what the odds.

We lack that elite player that is willing to show up for every game.
User avatar
mattola
Moderator & MVP
Moderator & MVP
Posts: 1853
Joined: Mon Aug 09, 2004 11:44 am

Post by mattola »

A friend of mine and I were having a conversation about the Canucks, the Flames, and both teams fan support. I changed his name as I dont think he would want it out there but his last comment really hit me as too true for alot of our season ticket holders. and I am a season ticket holder so I do see this alot. I wish it werent so but its true. the conversation is below.




Friend
10:58
7 foot tall on skates and a rocket shot vs a guy with a good outlet pass
nuts
I like pittsburg. hope they take the east
but you gotta go for the habs for canada

Matt
10:59
yeah same if sens aint getting it done go habs
I still cnt bring myself to cheer for calgary
but that sea of red last night was mind boggling
amazing

Friend
11:01
that was fun to watch. great fan support. it looks so impressive the stands. looked like 95% of the people had the jersey on. sweet

Matt
11:01
great fan support when they win. but I guess that is pro sports for all leagues except NHL
NFL
NFL I mean. the NFL the Dolphins had 1 win last season and sold out every game and will do so again this year
i would kill to see a sea of blue in vancouver but the suits wont wear anything but Hugo Boss in the lower bowl
that is the mentality that the Canucks have promoted to however. that is who they want paying the bills.

Friend
11:02
lol
sad but true

Matt
11:03
its business not hockey.

Friend
11:22
maybe they could make a Hugo Boss blue jersey
that would be fashionable.
$1600 or if you would like an embroidered name on the back $2150
silk thread of course
Hockey_roo
CC Veteran
Posts: 59
Joined: Tue Sep 26, 2006 5:23 am
Location: Australia

Post by Hockey_roo »

Farhan Lalji wrote: The only reason why I mentioned the Calgary Flames, is because I see a similarity between their past situation.....and what we (CANUCKS) face now. A few years ago, Calgary made a choice to deplete their defensive prowess (along with other players that were known for their toughness and/orr work ethic), for players that had greater offensive talent.

Result? The Flames did NOT get better. In my opinion, they actually regressed.
I agree I think we should amplify our strengths instead of "watering" them down (to beef up the forwards).
Sure would love to watch free wheelin' hockey, but not nearly as much as watching Us holding up the Cup!
Farhan Lalji

Post by Farhan Lalji »

Hockey_roo wrote:
I agree I think we should amplify our strengths instead of "watering" them down (to beef up the forwards).
Sure would love to watch free wheelin' hockey, but not nearly as much as watching Us holding up the Cup!
I guess I'm thinking of teams like Anaheim, San Jose, and the New Jersey Devil's of yesteryear.

Anaheim for example (2 years ago): These guys were ALREADY a tough, defensive-oriented team. What did they do? They traded for Chris Pronger and ADDED to that strength. As crazy as this sounds, they were actually in the running for Rob Blake last season as well! Last year - the Ducks also added Brad May...which made them even TOUGHER.

This year - size: The Ducks were ALREADY a big team, but they decided to add Todd Bertuzzi.

San Jose: San Jose already had one of the deepest defensive core's in the NHL. What did they do? They went ahead and acquired Brian Campbell. San Jose already had Patrick Marleau and Joe Thornton down the middle. What did they do? They signed a seemingly washed up Jeremy Roenick.


New Jersey Devils: ALWAYS maintained their defensive prowess, and played within themselves. They knew that they weren't going to beat teams 7-0, and didn't attempt to build their team like that. Even though the Devils won the Stanley Cup THREE times between the years of 1995 and 2003, there were times where they flat out missed the playoffs......or grossly underachieved (and as result, got canned in the 1st round).

Did the Devil's COMPLETELY alter their style? No. Instead - they kept their ultra defensive style (while keeping their core players), while replacing old guys with new ones.

The Devils continued to stack up on "defensive defensemen", utility forwards, and 2-3 different CHECKING centers (i.e. Holik, Carpenter, Madden). Meanwhile - the Devils were ALWAYS basically a one line team (i.e. Arnott, Sykora, Elias...or Gomez, Mogilny, Gionta, whoever).


The point I'm trying to make (I think?), is that the above teams REALLY focus on building around their STRENGTHS. ALL of the above teams have a DISTINCT IDENTITY...and play accordingly.

In a salary cap era, almost ALL teams will have some holes (unless a team gets a little lucky and sees unexpected emergences amongst kids.....like Carolina for instance.....and even Anaheim).

Therefore, in my opinion, it's almost SILLY to try and make "covering up your weaknesses" your BIGGEST priority. While "covering up weaknesses" and "filling holes" are important, it is nowhere near as important as BUILDING AROUND YOUR STRENGTHS....AND EXPLODING YOUR STRENGTHS by making them an even BIGGER strength (to the point of suffocation).

In the last few years - it seemed that Nonis was more focused on "filling wholes" and "covering weaknesses." Hence - guys like Smolinski, Bulis, Carney, Weinreich, Sopel, etc., just weren't all that effective. To this date - even some other signees (i.e. Pyatt) haven't really done anything of MAJOR significance.

I truly hope that the new GM of the Canucks makes a concentrated effort to build this team around STRENGTHS. I truly hope that by doing that (i.e. building around STRENGTHS), the Canucks gain an IDENTITY (whether's its as a defensive powerhouse, a team with 4 solid lines, or an offensive powerhouse).

Look at your core players - decide what you want - build around the strengths of the core - establish an identity.
Post Reply