Trading LUONGO for a "good" goalie and 1st line ce

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Farhan Lalji

Trading LUONGO for a "good" goalie and 1st line ce

Post by Farhan Lalji »

Trading LUONGO for a "good" goalie and 1st line center....

Just so everyone knows, I am a HUGE fan of Roberto Luongo. This thread isn't for the purpose of suggesting that we trade Luongo. The purpose of this thread, is to propose the following question: IF the Vancouver Canucks could acquire a "very good" goalie (one of which, while not as good as Luongo, has a proven ability to carry a team come playoff time) and a "respectable" 1st line center (or if you prefer, a very very good 2nd line center).

My "rationale" for thinking this:

-Take a look at the goalies that have won Stanley Cups since 2004. Nikolai Khabibulin, Cam Ward, and Jean Sebastian Giguerre. Take a look at some of the teams' goalies that were RUNNER's UP (i.e. Dwayne Roloson, Ray Emery). The reason why I bring this up, is because NONE of these goalies are on the level of Luongo, Brodeur, and Kiprasoff. However - all of the above goalie got hot when it mattered most. All of these goalies have PROVEN that when the chips are down, they can rise to the occassion.

Dwayne Roloson did it with Edmonton a few years ago. Our very own Kirk McLean did it back in 1994.

Another point I'd like to make, is that no goalie should EVER be expected to singlehandedly carry a team. A superstar goalie should simply make a great team even greater.

-Back in the day, Martin Brodeur was a great goalie, but he also had a great team in front of him. Patrick Roy and Dominik Hasek were great goalie for Colorado and Detroit respectively, but they had great teams in front of them.

-Even when you look at our arch nemesis' Calgary and Edmonton in 04' and 06'. Both teams rode the wave of their hot goalies..........BUT, the entire team also really stepped it up....and as result, defeated teams that they had no business beating. Our beloved Vancouver Canucks from 1994 fall under the same category.

I guess the ULTIMATE point I'm trying to make, is that perhaps there is NO POINT in having a world class goalie like Luongo, IF the rest of your team flat out sucks. Period.


Luongo shouldn't have to be "superman" every game so that the Canucks can 'compete' with other teams (and if he doesn't, the Canucks lose). Luongo hasn't been his usual self lately, but still.....

Last year in the playoffs for instance.....Luongo virtually carried the Canucks on his ass against Dallas (allowing us to beat what was probably a better team). Against the Ducks? Luongo got a little burned out (and rightly so!). As result - a lesser talented JS Giguerre out-played Luongo......thanks in large part, to a much fresher and much BETTER Anaheim team.

I guess the point I'm trying to make, is that perhaps the Canucks' current 'system' (and players) will NOT allow us to win. If recent history is any indication, a team needs BOTH offensive and defensive prowess......not just defense.

So - I pose the question:

-If the Canucks could get a VERY VERY good 2nd line center (or a respectable 1st line center) AND a 'very good' goalie with a proven ability to get hot come playoff time......for Roberto Luongo, would you do it?

I'm not sure what trade packages would be available for such a thing, but a few names that came to my mind were.....

-Oli Jokinen/Tomas Vokoun (admittedly, I have no idea how old Vokoun is, or if this is even fair).

-Patrick Marleau/Evgeni Nabakov (Canucks would have to throw in some more).

-Evgeni Malkin/Marc Andre Fleury

I admit that some (well...probably all :)) these trade ideas are retarded (apology in advance), but I was more interested in wondering if the THEORY behind these ideas were acceptable?

In exchange for Luongo, the Canucks get a very very good 2nd line center, and a very very good (but not superstar) goalie that has a proven ability to get hot come playoff time.
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Post by MarkMM »

I don't like any of those trades, but you do have a good point, championship teams have all been strong in net (if not built from the net out), but there hasn't been a team that won on the strength of its goalie alone.

That said, realistically, given Luongo's NTC, and our luck in having the top goalie for this era, I'd rather hold on to him, and as planned, build from the net out...the key though is that we actually do need to keep building, and I think Nonis is doing that, whether or not it's as quickly as people would like is another issue. But we've got the best goalie, arguably one of the best defenses which will only get better as Edler and Bourdon step up, a foundation with the Sedins and Kesler, some promising prospects in Raymond, Hansen, Grabner, White...and a ton of cap space in the off-season. Let's do the best we can for now (make a serious pitch to Forsberg), and work hard to draft well and use our new cap space next year to get better up front.
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Post by levelheaded »

Now look at the teams that won due in a large part to a franchise goaltender.

The Devils 3 times (Name one forward on any of those teams on that team other than Elias)
Colorado (although their offence helped a lot)

Luongo is one of the best goaltenders ever. You don't trade him. Not in a million years.
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Post by ClamRussel »

NEVER trade Luongo....

The problem is we have players like Naslund, Morrison, Cooke & Salo who together are huge drains on our salary cap. If all 4 of those players were healthy & earning their paycheque we wouldn't be having this discussion.
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Farhan Lalji

Post by Farhan Lalji »

Hey guys,

Just for the record - I would NEVER trade Luongo in a million years. I am just trying to play Devil's advocate in this thread. If the Canucks actually DID trade Luongo, Nonis might actually get assassinated.

I also agree with Clam Russel above. At the end of this year, a lot of "deadweight" contracts are up anyways, and so the Canucks can have some flexibility there.

One thing I want to ask: Do you THINK Veenyo's style of hockey is acceptable? If the Canucks had more talented forwards, would Veenyo's current system be acceptable?....or would changes need to be made?
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Post by whistler »

Personally, I think AV's style, while effective, is too simple.

Last year he wanted to stress defensive hockey and teach new concepts, positioning and techniques to the remains of a run & gun team that knew very little about good defensive hockey.

But that was accomplished the first year and the players should now be able to play good defence whenever the opposition has the puck.

Now he needs to move on, create a dependable power play and re-establish our ability to be a puck control team.

Obviously there are exceptions to this rule but, in general, we spend so much time playing defence that, when we do get the puck, we often just dump it in and make a change.
Our fresh legs then automatically have to play defensive hockey on their shift with similar results.

We need to learn how to control the puck during a shift change so our fresh skaters can carry it in to the offensive zone with the energy to finish the rush.

Dump & change doesn't lead to many good offensive chances.
It should be used sparingly and only when necessary.
We need to learn how to regroup & change while keeping posession.

But we need to keep Luongo so we do have a goalie we can trust to hold the fort in the playoffs.
While no goalie can win the Stanley Cup by themselves, a goalie CAN erase his team's chances by himself.

Cloutier was a decent goalie on a team with a strong offence and solid D.
His post-season meltdowns were a huge factor in our early exits.
Luongo was aquired to address that problem.

All we need now is to tweak our style a bit and get our underachievers playing back up to their potential.
If it's chronic, and they can't, or won't, play to their potential, replace them.and build next year's team around our younger players.

We need to add another Bieksa type to the blue line...only bigger and meaner.
The D is beginning to jump in on the play more so that's a good sign.

Our forwards need a couple of gritty finishers.

The twins, Kesler, Pyatt, Burrows, and the youngsters are performing well.

We need a Smyth and an Iginla added to that mix..
Since they're spoken for, we need a couple of guys who can fill their shoes.

It shouldn't be impossible.
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Post by Soapy »

I would never trade Louie....
But if I was going to.....I would fleece Ottawa for every good young player they have...Ottawa would win a cup with Louie...but...
they have a number one line...they have great d-men
McAmmond, Fisher, Vermette, Neil, Mesaros & 25 first round picks

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Post by Kowch »

whistler wrote:Personally, I think AV's style, while effective, is too simple.

...

Now he needs to move on, create a dependable power play and re-establish our ability to be a puck control team.
With what talent? The problem (as has been pointed out) is that the style of hockey being played in Vancouver is largely due of the make up fo the players. Outside of the Sedins and whoever is playing on their line this week, we don't have a puck possession team. Much as been made (especially on these) boards is that past the first line, we've got a bunch of grinders playing in front of a good D corps and the best goalie on the planet.

Part of the larger issue is that we're hamstrung by some players being overpaid and under performing. As much as I love Naslund, Morrison and Cooke, they're not playing up to the levels that earned them their contracts and because of the cap, Nonis can't make many big tweaks. Unless there's some big trades happening, and I can't see many in the near future, this is the team that's going to be here through the end of the year. Nonis is going to have some play room this off season with salaries coming off the books, so he can work the trade lines and see who's available in the free agent market. That's where we're going to see the biggest changes happen (IMO).

Back to the original topic, there's no way you trade Luongo. Good goalies are avaialble - GREAT goalies come along very rarely. And yes Farhan, I know you're playing devils advocate, but it's kind of amusing this kind of thread would even come up on a Canucks board - especially given that we've very rarely had even a "good" goalie, and now have the best.

Nonis wants to build from the net out. He's done a decent job of that. We've got a world class goalie, and (when they get healthy) a very strong D core. With some breathing room, he can finally work on the top end.
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Post by West Coast Jets Fan »

How about this trade........

Luongo and the rest of the Canucks for say, Chris Osgood and the rest of the Red WIngs?
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Post by newostar »

Lets keep luongo, and trade osgood for sundin.....pick up forsberg and trade for the rest of the wings.

Then we'd have the swedish national team:

2006 Olympic Team
# Player Club Position
1 Stefan Liv Detroit Red Wings G
32 Mikael Tellqvist Phoenix Coyotes G
35 Henrik Lundqvist New York Rangers G
2 Mattias Öhlund Vancouver Canucks D
5 Nicklas Lidström - A Detroit Red Wings D
7 Niklas Kronwall Detroit Red Wings D
8 Christian Bäckman St. Louis Blues D
15 Niclas Hävelid Atlanta Thrashers D
23 Ronnie Sundin Frölunda HC D
29 Kenny Jönsson Rögle BK D
34 Daniel Tjärnqvist Edmonton Oilers D
11 Daniel Alfredsson - A Ottawa Senators F
12 Daniel Sedin Vancouver Canucks F
13 Mats Sundin - C Toronto Maple leaves F
20 Henrik Sedin Vancouver Canucks F
21 Peter Forsberg Nashville Predators F
22 Per-Johan Axelsson Boston Bruins F
26 Samuel PÃ¥hlsson Anaheim Ducks F
33 Fredrik Modin Columbus Blue Jackets F
37 Mikael Samuelsson Detroit Red Wings F
40 Henrik Zetterberg Detroit Red Wings F
51 Mika Hannula HV71 F
72 Jörgen Jönsson Färjestads BK F
96 Tomas Holmström Detroit Red Wings F
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Post by Kikbutt_10 »

Not saying I would trade Louie, ever, but Ottawa has been open about talks regarding both Emery and Vermette. Not exactly the best return, but throw another youngster like Foligno and maybe a pick or two and our forwards would look a lot better with a decent goalie still between the pipes, but I'm definitely not advising something like this, I'm just throwing out some crap for conversation. I hope Lou stays put for the long haul.
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Post by Badfish »

I had this exact conversation with a guy at work the other day. He said if he could trade Luongo now for an above average goalie and a top forward he'd do it in a heart beat. I thought he was crazy.

I can see where the idea comes from, but I would much rather KEEP the world class goalie we'v bitched and moaned for years for, and build the team from him out. I agree with Kowch in that this off season should be interesting with Nazzy BMo and Cooke's contracts up. that's an extra...11 mil or so if I remember right? sure they may bring one or all back (I could see Naslund back for a lesser contract perhaps, and maybe BMo... but I don't know about Cooker) but that's quite a bit of extra cash to spend to finally add some offense to what is otherwise a very strong team.
If we can hold on to our strengths while adding that needed offense we would be strong cup contenders. Give us a good second scoring line and we're in bussines imo! :towel:
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Post by Cornuck »

Badfish wrote:I would much rather KEEP the world class goalie we'v bitched and moaned for years for, and build the team from him out.
No Shit!

We tried the run and gun with an average goalie and saw the results. Granted Cloutier didn't have playoff success, but I would hate to see us throw away the best player we've even had.
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Farhan Lalji

Post by Farhan Lalji »

Cornuck wrote:
Badfish wrote:I would much rather KEEP the world class goalie we'v bitched and moaned for years for, and build the team from him out.
No Shit!

We tried the run and gun with an average goalie and saw the results. Granted Cloutier didn't have playoff success, but I would hate to see us throw away the best player we've even had.
Hey Cornuck,

Just to clarify - I'm wasn't suggesting that the Canucks trade Luongo for an "average" goalie. Hell no! I was suggesting that the Canucks trade for a goalie that has PROVEN ability to come through in the clutch (i.e. goalies like JS Giguerre, Cam Ward, Khabibulin, Dwayne Roloson, etc.........goalies of that "mold"....not necessarily those goalies).

Basically - a goalie, while not as good as Luongo/Brodeur/Kiprasoff, would still have a proven ability to come through in the clutch.

Since Luongo would be worth more than this new goalie, the Canucks could then also acquire another top forward.

So basically - the Canucks would have more depth up front, but would still have a goalie that could come through for us when it mattered most (unlike Cloutier!).

Having said that - I would never trade Luongo in a million years......I was just hypothesizing.

Hope that clarifies things a bit.

Cheers.
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Post by jchockey »

Roloson, Ward, and Khabibulin should not be mentioned under the same breath as Giguere.

Theoretically, if we were to swap Luongo for Giguere for a player, that player, guarenteed, will not be a Perry, Getzlaf, or even Kunitz. Unless you expand that package to at least include a Grabner, Bourdon, Edler, or Schneider.
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