What to do about our (lack of) offense
Moderator: Referees
What to do about our (lack of) offense
I think everyone can agree it's not the Canucks' defensive effort that is costing us games. They're much better defensively and Luongo, some game-killing blown saves besides, has been a rock in net. When it comes to shots and goals against, the guys are actually one of the better teams in the league.
I think we can all agree that the guys can't seem to score goals this season, and it's killing them. The Sedins and Naslund are getting their chances and are burying some of them, but outside of Pyatt (who has benefitted from the Sedins) nobody can buy a goal out there. For some guys, it's not for a lack of effort. There's just no finish around the net.
If lack of offense is the problem, what's the solution? Does DN trade for offensive help (on D or at Forward)? Then who for who? Does AV adjust the team's tactics/lines to get better chances versus loads of chances? Does AV just keep running 'scoring camps' for practices? or do we just stay the course, confident that we're just not getting the bounces around the net and the goals will come?
Personally, I think we could use a trade or two to get more scoring. It doesn't have to be a blockbuster (do any of those happen anymore with the cap?), but getting a younger forward with more potential than reputation (and/or salary) in exchange for either Mo, Cooke or Bulis (though I don't know who would take him) may be the kick we need.
Thoughts?
I think we can all agree that the guys can't seem to score goals this season, and it's killing them. The Sedins and Naslund are getting their chances and are burying some of them, but outside of Pyatt (who has benefitted from the Sedins) nobody can buy a goal out there. For some guys, it's not for a lack of effort. There's just no finish around the net.
If lack of offense is the problem, what's the solution? Does DN trade for offensive help (on D or at Forward)? Then who for who? Does AV adjust the team's tactics/lines to get better chances versus loads of chances? Does AV just keep running 'scoring camps' for practices? or do we just stay the course, confident that we're just not getting the bounces around the net and the goals will come?
Personally, I think we could use a trade or two to get more scoring. It doesn't have to be a blockbuster (do any of those happen anymore with the cap?), but getting a younger forward with more potential than reputation (and/or salary) in exchange for either Mo, Cooke or Bulis (though I don't know who would take him) may be the kick we need.
Thoughts?
- JamesOwnzSam11
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So does that mean Nonis sits by and does nothing all season?
No.
He works the phones and gets a trade done. Just because it's not easy (and made all the more difficult with the cap) doesn't mean he doesn't attempt to improve the club. And at this point, Nonis should know exactly want he needs to try and get done.
I just hope he's working on it.
No.
He works the phones and gets a trade done. Just because it's not easy (and made all the more difficult with the cap) doesn't mean he doesn't attempt to improve the club. And at this point, Nonis should know exactly want he needs to try and get done.
I just hope he's working on it.
- Island Nucklehead
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Knowing the market, if this team keeps falling he'll be out of a job mighty fast if he dosn't do something. This is Burkies team no longer, he's completely destroyed that; new coach, new line-up, new philosophy, new goalie etc.
Granted, we all knew it could be a trying season, but after witnessing the early wins and effort, fans realized what this team could do. If we lose to the Blues on friday, I can't see him not pulling the trigger on something. That being said, we have been getting horrid puck luck, and I don't know who he could trade and for what.
Morrison won't fetch us much, neither will Cooke considering their salaries and production thus far. The only likely way we get something done is to take on a similarily underachieving player in the hopes of jump starting the line up.
What about Cooke and a pick (probably higher) for Trent Hunter out of NYI, with Garth in charge we might get him, he's not off to a torrid start by any means.
Satan is another option, he's struggling, but at 4.25 we'd have to lost both Cooke and BMo to get him, and with even less depth I'd rather not.
Kyle Calder has been absolutely BRUTAL so far this year with Phili...has a couple 20 goal seasons with Chi-Town though.
Just some creative thinking, if there is a trade, we won't be getting anyone who's on pace for 30 this year, thats for damn sure.
Granted, we all knew it could be a trying season, but after witnessing the early wins and effort, fans realized what this team could do. If we lose to the Blues on friday, I can't see him not pulling the trigger on something. That being said, we have been getting horrid puck luck, and I don't know who he could trade and for what.
Morrison won't fetch us much, neither will Cooke considering their salaries and production thus far. The only likely way we get something done is to take on a similarily underachieving player in the hopes of jump starting the line up.
What about Cooke and a pick (probably higher) for Trent Hunter out of NYI, with Garth in charge we might get him, he's not off to a torrid start by any means.
Satan is another option, he's struggling, but at 4.25 we'd have to lost both Cooke and BMo to get him, and with even less depth I'd rather not.
Kyle Calder has been absolutely BRUTAL so far this year with Phili...has a couple 20 goal seasons with Chi-Town though.
Just some creative thinking, if there is a trade, we won't be getting anyone who's on pace for 30 this year, thats for damn sure.
Ottawa may still be a dance partner, and they have enough promising young players, but it's a matter of who Ottawa would want. Maybe somebody like Ruzicka out of Philly, or Balastik from Columbus. Even Stephen Weiss was reportedly out of favour in Florida, but that was when Keenan was in charge. Hard to say who is a diamond in the rough, but that's why Nonis has pro scouts. Then again, they were the ones who recommended Bulis and Santala.
I'd love to believe that if the team stays the course and runs more scoring camps that the goals will come, but either guys have finish or they don't. We have too many grinders and 'energy' players and not enough scorers. Either bring up someone like Reid or Hansen, or make a deal for someone. We've already dug ourselves a hole with our divisional record. How long can we wait for these guys to suddenly find a scoring touch under their pillow one morning? More importantly, how long can Nonis wait?
I'd love to believe that if the team stays the course and runs more scoring camps that the goals will come, but either guys have finish or they don't. We have too many grinders and 'energy' players and not enough scorers. Either bring up someone like Reid or Hansen, or make a deal for someone. We've already dug ourselves a hole with our divisional record. How long can we wait for these guys to suddenly find a scoring touch under their pillow one morning? More importantly, how long can Nonis wait?
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With all of these close games where we outshoot opponents and generally control games yet manage to lose 3-2, 2-1 etc are very frusterating to watch because the team seems to have the effort and heart, with a good system, but just not enough skill to finish the deal.
I'm hoping that DN's already working on something, even if it's just to test the waters... I'm hoping if the team hasn't pulled out of this funk by christmas he pulls the trigger sooner rather then later, honestly.
I really feel that we've got a solid team, and with a tweak or two (ie a scoring forward, maybe a 6/7th dman... I know, easier said then done.) could really make a push for a playoff spot. From there on in it's anyone's game, and with the heart we've shown so far this season (we haven't been losing from lack of trying) who knows.
I'm hoping that DN's already working on something, even if it's just to test the waters... I'm hoping if the team hasn't pulled out of this funk by christmas he pulls the trigger sooner rather then later, honestly.
I really feel that we've got a solid team, and with a tweak or two (ie a scoring forward, maybe a 6/7th dman... I know, easier said then done.) could really make a push for a playoff spot. From there on in it's anyone's game, and with the heart we've shown so far this season (we haven't been losing from lack of trying) who knows.
- Jyrki21
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Unless the player they get back is Alexander Ovechkin, I just can't see how acquiring another forward is really going to make that much of a difference. A Trent Hunter is not going to score at a goal-per-game pace, which is basically what the Canucks need right now.
Honestly, this is a systems thing, not an individuals' thing. Yes, they need far better finish, no question. But fundamentally, if their power play was at all threatening (nice to see it come on a little bit recently), we wouldn't even be having this discussion.
As some have suggested, I wouldn't fault El Viño if he moved the team in a slightly more offensive direction in general. Luongo shows that he thrives with many, not few, shots... it couldn't hurt to open things up a little.
Honestly, this is a systems thing, not an individuals' thing. Yes, they need far better finish, no question. But fundamentally, if their power play was at all threatening (nice to see it come on a little bit recently), we wouldn't even be having this discussion.
As some have suggested, I wouldn't fault El Viño if he moved the team in a slightly more offensive direction in general. Luongo shows that he thrives with many, not few, shots... it couldn't hurt to open things up a little.
It doesn't have to be an Ovechkin type player. We dont' need a top line guy. We have 3 + Pyatt ATM. We need scoring DEPTH. A Trent Hunter might get us the odd goal... a timely goal. Something Cooke, Morrison and Bulis are NOT doing. So why wouldn't you make a trade like that?
Why does everyone assume it means bringing in a top tier player?
Why does everyone assume it means bringing in a top tier player?
- Island Nucklehead
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We won't get a top tier player. And who sais he has to score a goal a game? How about creating something? Chemistry is everything, it's why Morrison has his retarded contract. 2/3 of our forward lines don't have it. The only reason our top line does is because it contains Twins!
I wonder what the market is for one of our prime goal tending prospects would be? I'm not trying to sell the future, but we have Luongo (who isn't Marty Brodeur, he BETTER be around for a while), and our lack of offensive skill now and in the near future is disgusting. Maybe dealing Schneider, Ellis or Vincent might get us some help.
I wonder what the market is for one of our prime goal tending prospects would be? I'm not trying to sell the future, but we have Luongo (who isn't Marty Brodeur, he BETTER be around for a while), and our lack of offensive skill now and in the near future is disgusting. Maybe dealing Schneider, Ellis or Vincent might get us some help.
- tantalum
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Agreed. The top line is essentially set with Pyatt or Naslund on the wings. What needs to be done is to improve the second and third lines. To do that Nonis has to engineer a deal or multiple deals that will result in giving up less NHL bodies than he receives back. A 2 for 1 or 3 for 2 type deal. Or two 1 for 1 deals and signing Allison perhaps. It won't be easy but it can be done. We see it all the time.Kowch wrote:It doesn't have to be an Ovechkin type player. We dont' need a top line guy. We have 3 + Pyatt ATM. We need scoring DEPTH. A Trent Hunter might get us the odd goal... a timely goal. Something Cooke, Morrison and Bulis are NOT doing. So why wouldn't you make a trade like that?
Why does everyone assume it means bringing in a top tier player?
the other option is to have Bulis, Cooke and Morrison improve their play immensely. I just don't see that happening.
On balance, I think Nonis and Vigneault have done a good job, some of Nonis' moves have so far flopped, but keep in mind he's made some good calls as well. Good people make mistakes, no big deal, it's how he corrects them that matters.
Vigneault I think has done a good job tightening our D and holding players accountable, but I do think the biggest fault might lie with how quickly he changes things up. If things don't work, he changes lines in a game, to develop proper chemistry, you need to keep lines together for a few games, let alone few shifts. With all the changeover, there was a big camp and no chance to develop chemistry then, we should have let them experiment more and be more patient early on this season, now it's getting near Christmas and no one has developed with regular linemates. That, along with more scoring practices, would be the first order of business, and I think could change a lot.
Keeping up Coloubme and his offensive potential (notwithstanding the thought that Edler might have been a better keeper, that's a different debate) is another step in the scoring direction, I'd also look to see if we could waive Santala and replace him as the 13th forward with Reid, as much as he lacked finish, he has more potential to score than Santala. Jansen, maybe, if he's ready, though I wouldn't want to use a guy with his potential as a depth guy.
If things are still in the toilet by Christmas, I'd look to move out Cooke and replace him with Bouck, who's younger, hungrier, and can fight, and $1 million cheaper. In return, I'd either look for a young guy with scoring potential, or a 5/6 d-man. Another thing I might look at is waiving/trading Chouinard, replacing him with a younger, hungrier, $600k cheaper Rypien who adds some toughness on the fourth-line ($1.1 mil for the fourth is a bit rich for me). Use the cap space towards the trade deadline.
Vigneault I think has done a good job tightening our D and holding players accountable, but I do think the biggest fault might lie with how quickly he changes things up. If things don't work, he changes lines in a game, to develop proper chemistry, you need to keep lines together for a few games, let alone few shifts. With all the changeover, there was a big camp and no chance to develop chemistry then, we should have let them experiment more and be more patient early on this season, now it's getting near Christmas and no one has developed with regular linemates. That, along with more scoring practices, would be the first order of business, and I think could change a lot.
Keeping up Coloubme and his offensive potential (notwithstanding the thought that Edler might have been a better keeper, that's a different debate) is another step in the scoring direction, I'd also look to see if we could waive Santala and replace him as the 13th forward with Reid, as much as he lacked finish, he has more potential to score than Santala. Jansen, maybe, if he's ready, though I wouldn't want to use a guy with his potential as a depth guy.
If things are still in the toilet by Christmas, I'd look to move out Cooke and replace him with Bouck, who's younger, hungrier, and can fight, and $1 million cheaper. In return, I'd either look for a young guy with scoring potential, or a 5/6 d-man. Another thing I might look at is waiving/trading Chouinard, replacing him with a younger, hungrier, $600k cheaper Rypien who adds some toughness on the fourth-line ($1.1 mil for the fourth is a bit rich for me). Use the cap space towards the trade deadline.
Mark
One thing that I think the Coach and Managers need to consider is that while this team is putting in the effot and often outworking their opponents, they are not physically imposing.
They do not grind and drain down the oppositon. They are skating but they are not extracting a price and playing the wear and tear game.
If we are going to play AV's style and considering the talent we have lost with guys like Jovanovski and Bertuzzi, I think a smash mouth dynamic needs to be considered.
They do not grind and drain down the oppositon. They are skating but they are not extracting a price and playing the wear and tear game.
If we are going to play AV's style and considering the talent we have lost with guys like Jovanovski and Bertuzzi, I think a smash mouth dynamic needs to be considered.
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Good point WCE.
What also kind of bothers me is we don't normally (at least it's seemed this way to me) get behind the other teams defense. We'll have the start of a 2 on 1 and then all of a sudden the other teams 2nd D-man gets back there and then we're all bunched in the corner (again), trying to cycle the puck (again).
What also kind of bothers me is we don't normally (at least it's seemed this way to me) get behind the other teams defense. We'll have the start of a 2 on 1 and then all of a sudden the other teams 2nd D-man gets back there and then we're all bunched in the corner (again), trying to cycle the puck (again).
Kowch, as you point out this team seems to have lost the ability to score off the rush, and has become far too predictable with everyone trying to cycle the puck a la the Sedins. Even the Sedins on the pp are becoming predictable, and are now being kept to the outside more often than not.Kowch wrote:Good point WCE.
What also kind of bothers me is we don't normally (at least it's seemed this way to me) get behind the other teams defense. We'll have the start of a 2 on 1 and then all of a sudden the other teams 2nd D-man gets back there and then we're all bunched in the corner (again), trying to cycle the puck (again).
The problem right now, is at the present pace we have a first line with an estimated output of approximately seventy goals (last year St Louis had 197 goals for the lowest in the NHL). Without secondary scoring or incredible defensive play, this team is going nowhere. But at the same time there are not a lot of tradeable assets that will return offensive talent, not to mention the problems of cap space.
Perhaps a solution, dare I say it, would be to try Henrik and two other wingers for instance Naslund and Pyatt, and have Daniel as a winger on another line. Both Sedins are incredible passers and set up men, and both handle the puck well some thing this team does not have beyond the Sedins and perhaps Naslund. While it does break up the twins, it may help provide a basis for two lines which can share the scoring. Of course then who plays with Daniel, a decision that may require some experimentation.