Fighting in the NHL

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Mickey107
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Re: Fighting in the NHL

Post by Mickey107 »

Cornuck wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 6:08 pm
Micky wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 6:07 pm I wouldn't be surprised if a game that didn't allow for any fighting would be boring.
So Olympic hockey is boring?
If you take out the factor that your pulling hard for your own country, it can be. Besides; It's a short tournament as opposed an NHL schedule. Have to admit to watching some great world hockey though. This question asks about the NHL though. ;)
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5thhorseman
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Re: Fighting in the NHL

Post by 5thhorseman »

Ya I think if you have an automatic 20-game suspension (with pay docked) for fighting you won't see much fighting.

Whether that's a good idea is another question.
Last edited by 5thhorseman on Tue Oct 26, 2021 6:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Fighting in the NHL

Post by Strangelove »

Micky wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 6:07 pm The point is, to take fighting out of the game will increase other penalties to the point there's simply too many crappy calls.
Yeah we heard you the first time.

You said if a player can't "hurt" an opposing player by dropping the gloves and wailing away

... said player will now opt to "kneeing, kicking, butt ending, spearing, even spitting".


Micky: “OH NOES, don’t make fighting suspendable cuz threat of suspension totally works! So much so that players will resort to other suspendable things instead!”

:lol:

I love you man, do you also ride a unicycle in big floppy shoes whilst juggling 5 or 6 balls in the air? :D
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Re: Fighting in the NHL

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Never actually played the game, have you.
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Strangelove
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Re: Fighting in the NHL

Post by Strangelove »

5thhorseman wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 6:30 pm Ya I think if you have a 20-game suspension (with pay docked) for fighting you won't see much fighting.

Whether that's a good idea is another question.
How about 20-game suspensions (with pay docked) for Micky's "kneeing, kicking, butt ending, spearing, even spitting"?
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Re: Fighting in the NHL

Post by Strangelove »

Micky wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 6:32 pm Never actually played the game, have you.
Do you ever wonder what all those WHOOSHING sounds are?


Micky: “OH NOES, don’t make fighting suspendable cuz threat of suspension totally works! So much so that players will resort to other suspendable things instead!”

"WHOOSH"


See, this is why people call you Gomer...
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Re: Fighting in the NHL

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Megaterio Llamas wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 5:54 pm I do think today that I would augment the changes I recommended then (open hand palm strikes and close quarter forearm techniques) with chokes, arm locks and wrist locks from the standing position, these are submission holds that don't normally result in serious injury. Borowiecki-style tackles, trips and throws from the clinch I would continue to rule out, They're far too dangerous!
Oh, wow. I certainly agree that a usual hockey fight gripping scenario provides lots of opportunities for effective joint locks, but to the extent that you believed that the takedowns we were seeing were coming out of judo, I was thinking that they were still holding back from trying to injure their opponents by sticking to throws, and not doing joint locks, as those would almost certainly lead to injury in this context. No, they don't usually result in injury in a sparring or tournament context, but those are contests, not fights. Do you really expect an NHL fight to end when the other guy taps? Would you even expect one of the combatants to try to tap?

It takes about 8 weeks to heal a broken wrist, and a ruptured elbow ligament at least that long, and in either case it's easy to see how the injured player's shot would never be the same. The injuries resulting from a throw, even on the ice, are mostly going to be limited to broken ribs and concussions. No picnic, to be sure, but the same sorts of injuries that can result from regular hockey plays, or more traditional hockey fighting techniques.

Chokes are largely harmless, but there aren't many good ways to get a standing choke. The exception to both of those is a guillotine choke, but that is crazy dangerous in that the downside of a mishap is a c-spine fracture. I don't think anyone wants to see that.
Last edited by Ronning's Ghost on Tue Oct 26, 2021 9:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Fighting in the NHL

Post by Megaterio Llamas »

Ronning's Ghost wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 8:36 pm
Megaterio Llamas wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 5:54 pm I do think today that I would augment the changes I recommended then (open hand palm strikes and close quarter forearm techniques) with chokes, arm locks and wrist locks from the standing position, these are submission holds that don't normally result in serious injury. Borowiecki-style tackles, trips and throws from the clinch I would continue to rule out, They're far too dangerous!
Oh, wow. I certainly agree that a usual hockey fight gripping scenario provides lots of opportunities for effective joint locks, but to the extent that you believed that the takedowns we were seeing were coming out of judo, I was thinking that it they were still holding back from trying to injure their opponents by sticking to throws, and not doing joint locks, as those would almost certainly lead to injury in this context. No, they don't usually result in injury in a sparring or tournament context, but those are contests, not fights. Do you really expect an NHL fight to end when the other guy taps? Would you even expect one of the combatants to try to tap?

It takes about 8 weeks to heal a broken wrist, and a ruptured elbow ligament at least that long, and in either case it's easy to see how the injured player's shot would never be the same. The injuries resulting from a throw, even on the ice, are mostly going to be limited to broken ribs and concussions. No picnic, to be sure, but the same sorts of injuries that can result from regular hockey plays, or more traditional hockey fighting techniques.

Chokes are largely harmless, but there aren't many good ways to get a standing choke. The exception to both of those is a guillotine choke, but that is crazy dangerous in that the downside of a mishap is a c-spine fracture. I don't think anyone wants to see that.
Of course tapping to choke holds and joint locks would have to be code enforced and result in the immediate break up of the fight.

You see so many opportunities to lock in guillotine chokes in the course of hockey fights that it seems obvious to include them. If the fighters did wear distinct uniforms then perhaps they could be a loose fitting jacket type with very loose sleeves that would open up opportunities for sleeve and collar chokes. But let's throw it open to discussion and see what other ideas the brethren here might have.
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Megaterio Llamas
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Re: Fighting in the NHL

Post by Megaterio Llamas »

When I talk about jackets, I'm thinking about the style worn by Honest Abe Lincoln back in his collar and elbow folk wrestling days.
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Re: Fighting in the NHL

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Cherry Picker wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 3:26 pm Instead of fighting combatants should have to engage in thumb wrestling.
Except for a helmet, the loser has to play the rest of the game stripped to the waist.
No, we need the jersey to see team affiliation and number/name.
Make them strip from the waist instead. That will also be more humiliating. :drink:
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Re: Fighting in the NHL

Post by Per »

Megaterio Llamas wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 5:54 pm
One idea that has been rattling around inside my head is to transfer the role of the designated hockey fighter to the coaches. The coaches could be issued green flags which they could raise once or twice per game to signal a challenge to the other team's coach. The coaches could then line up and fight at a designated fighting area.
Fixed it for you! :drink:

No need to saddle the team with a useless player. If the coaches want fights, they handle it themselves! :thumbs:
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Re: Fighting in the NHL

Post by Megaterio Llamas »

Per wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 11:23 pm
Megaterio Llamas wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 5:54 pm
One idea that has been rattling around inside my head is to transfer the role of the designated hockey fighter to the coaches. The coaches could be issued green flags which they could raise once or twice per game to signal a challenge to the other team's coach. The coaches could then line up and fight at a designated fighting area.
Fixed it for you! :drink:

No need to saddle the team with a useless player. If the coaches want fights, they handle it themselves! :thumbs:
Good input Per, I like it very much. Now we're cooking, let's see what other innovative ideas the folks here can come up with!
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Re: Fighting in the NHL

Post by Mickey107 »

Strangelove wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 6:34 pm
Micky wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 6:32 pm Never actually played the game, have you.
Do you ever wonder what all those WHOOSHING sounds are?
I just assumed it was you passing wind as you made your rounds around the board.
Last edited by Mickey107 on Wed Oct 27, 2021 12:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Fighting in the NHL

Post by Per »

Cornuck wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 3:09 pm
Is the NHL not entertaining enough without fighting? #devilsadvocate
This!

If I want to watch people fight, there are dozens of options, boxing, kung fu, mixed martial arts...

But I'm not interested.

I like hockey. And I especially like to be blinded by the technical skills, a good deke, a faked shot followed by a tape to tape pass to a player left with an open goal, etc.

Staged fights in hockey to me is the equivalent of a commercial break. It's boring and it means the game will take longer than necessary.

Fighting as retaliation is a different thing and can probably never be completely eliminated. You don't see it in other sports, so this may sound strange, but I think the nature of hockey - the speed, the physicality, etc - makes it far more dangerous than most other sports, and therefor the players feel a need to punish those that play too recklessly and endanger the health and livelyhood of other players.

If the referees strictly punished those reckless plays, there could be a chance of fighting eventually going away, but as already has been pointed out here, it would probably mean very little time with five vs five on the ice, so it would be hard to implement without destroying the game.

That being said, fighting is already banned. The question is rather if the penalties for fighting are too lenient or too harsh.

Also, in Swedish hockey dropping the gloves means automatic suspension, so you rarely see anyone (except for the odd Canadian) do it.
The players do not want to hurt their team by getting suspended, and so they fight with their gloves on instead, and probably just get a fighting minor.
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Re: Fighting in the NHL

Post by Megaterio Llamas »

Fighting is part of the entertainment package and the leagues are afraid to completely take it out. The junior operators, who are basically slave holders that pay their teenaged employees well below the minimum wage were telling their teenagers to fight with their gloves on when covid first hit before the provincial governments shut them down. It was an absurd spectacle. The whole idea of these junior operators sending high school boys out to fight on the ice for 25 cents an hour seems like something from another century to me but I guess I'm veering a little off course here. :)
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