Canucks add Toffoli (Schaller, Madden, 2nd, cond 4th)

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Doyle Hargraves
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Re: Canucks add Toffoli (Schaller, Madden, 2nd, cond 4th)

Post by Doyle Hargraves »

Age gap was already filled. Nice try though! :lol:
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Re: Canucks add Toffoli (Schaller, Madden, 2nd, cond 4th)

Post by UWSaint »

My two cents on the trade:

(1) The playoffs are in sight (but not locked down), the playoffs are wide open. Go for it.

(2) Second rounders don't return all that much with regularity. See my post on this, viewtopic.php?p=348985#p348985, where I estimate that less than a third of second round picks turn into quality NHL players and more than half don't make the league for anything more than a cup of coffee. Tyler Madden was a third rounder who MAYBE can be considered a 2d rounder type as he's played a touch above his draft position. The chance that the Canucks gave up on a quality NHLers in that 2d rounder or Madden is in the neighborhood of 45-50%. (That this player will be an impact player is far less).

(3) The chance Toffoli will be a quality player the rest of the regular season is 100% minus whatever the chance of injury is. Not saying superstar, but legitimate add to the top 6 who can penalty kill. A line of Pearson-Horvat-Toffoli is a very good two way line. (Toffoli will start with Pettersson for a bit though, watch. The reason is simple -- new players get the best chance to succeed). Of all the "affordable" rentals -- he's absolutely the right player to target for a top 6 role.

(4) Quality players help get in the playoffs and succeed in the playoffs. GMJB's job may depend on making it; he won't be fired for making the deal, he will be fired if the benefits of the deal don't result in a playoff berth. *All* of the benefits will be known at the season's end, while the costs are down the road.

(5) Its fair to object to the trade if one has an unqualified opposition to rentals, but that's not an objection to the player or the price, its an objection to the philosophy of it all. A qualified opposition might take the view that there are circumstances where a rental that wouldn't have otherwise been necessary becomes necessary because of injury or suspension (consider the trade for Rucinsky when Bertuzzi got suspended -- a general opponent of rentals may have conceded the need).

Some might argue that Boeser's injury necessitate this deal. I've broke ribs twice (buckle fractures, not compound) -- he'll be out for 4-6 weeks from the date of injury. Maybe, but I don't know that there are many teams with so many guys on the farm who have succeeded there in playing prototypical offensive roles (Boucher, Goldy, Lind, Baerstchi). These guys clearly can't replace a Boeser (neither will Toffoli!), but the point is that for 10 games the chance one might fill in well enough for that injury to Boeser doesn't cost more than a couple points in the standings is pretty good. And honestly, when you've played well in the minors (3 of the 4 are point a game guys down there), you done what you can to show that you can fill in temporarily.

But Toffoli's spotting for Boeser is really not what's going on in this deal. Yes, its adding a top 6 right wing when a top 6 right wing is out. But the long term view is that Toffoli is replacing *Eriksson* on the Horvat line and replacing *Schaller* on the PK. The second line just got more dynamic, doesn't lose a step defensively, and the PK just got better. So does the 4th line. Eriksson is a hell of a lot better than Schaller.

(6) This trade is worth it. For both teams.
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Re: Canucks add Toffoli (Schaller, Madden, 2nd, cond 4th)

Post by Doyle Hargraves »

Megaterio Llamas wrote: Mon Feb 17, 2020 6:23 pm
Doyle Hargraves wrote: Mon Feb 17, 2020 6:19 pm
Megaterio Llamas wrote: Mon Feb 17, 2020 6:15 pm This is the strongest roster we're going to have for the next few seasons
I’m not buying that. That sounds like it came straight from hfboards and it’s a load of shit bleated out by a bitter group of immature prepubescent “fans”.

That said it’s a narrow minded and short sighted trade.
Nah, I'm afraid it's what I've been saying all season long. That we're all in on a Stanley Cup shot this year to celebrate season 50. They thought I was nuts at HF but maybe not so much now.
The teams core is young. It’s not a one year window. Is there a chance they could step back next year? Absolutely but it ain’t a one year window.
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Re: Canucks add Toffoli (Schaller, Madden, 2nd, cond 4th)

Post by Nuckertuzzi »

SKYO wrote: Tue Feb 18, 2020 9:45 am And we kept our top two prospects:
1) Podz
2) Hogs

+ Lind, 6'3 LW Aidan McDonough, DiPietro

Additionally we kept all our dmen prospects: Rathbone, OJ, Woo, Rafferty.


Will the list remain the same after next week?

We definitely have an abundance and therefore I was prepared to see a prospect or two go, even a good one, the math and the injuries pointed to it. Just not a big fan of prospect(s) for rentals unless we are a truly contending team that's close. Not sure we're there but I get why now with the weak West.

So I have mixed feelings on this one. If any fan base should know careless rental deals are what sets teams back for years (that coupled with bad drafting in Gillis' case) so that is the only reason I'm a bit on the fence. But I've liked Toffoli for a long time and if we can keep him longer I'd be more on board.
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Re: Canucks add Toffoli (Schaller, Madden, 2nd, cond 4th)

Post by Doyle Hargraves »

Nuckertuzzi wrote: Tue Feb 18, 2020 12:31 pm
SKYO wrote: Tue Feb 18, 2020 9:45 am And we kept our top two prospects:
1) Podz
2) Hogs

+ Lind, 6'3 LW Aidan McDonough, DiPietro

Additionally we kept all our dmen prospects: Rathbone, OJ, Woo, Rafferty.


Will the list remain the same after next week?

We definitely have an abundance and therefore I was prepared to see a prospect or two go, even a good one, the math and the injuries pointed to it. Just not a big fan of prospect(s) for rentals unless we are a truly contending team that's close. Not sure we're there but I get why now with the weak West.

So I have mixed feelings on this one. If any fan base should know careless rental deals are what sets teams back for years (that coupled with bad drafting in Gillis' case) so that is the only reason I'm a bit on the fence. But I've liked Toffoli for a long time and if we can keep him longer I'd be more on board.
If you could re-sign him it changes things. Makes the deal a fair bit more understandable.

Maybe they’ve gotten negative vibes on preliminary contract discussions with Tanev and/or Markstrom. There’s pretty much no chance all three of Toffoli, Tanev and Markstrom would all fit into next years cap.
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Re: Canucks add Toffoli (Schaller, Madden, 2nd, cond 4th)

Post by Micky »

.
first interview;
Vancouver #Canucks@Canucks
Tyler Toffoli (
@tytoff16 meets with the media in Vancouver after taking part in his first practice with the #Canucks.

https://twitter.com/Canucks/status/1229 ... 6%3Fs%3D21

PRACTICE | Tyler Toffoli on Trade 02.18.20
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Re: Canucks add Toffoli (Schaller, Madden, 2nd, cond 4th)

Post by Nuckertuzzi »

Doyle Hargraves wrote: Tue Feb 18, 2020 12:40 pm There’s pretty much no chance all three of Toffoli, Tanev and Markstrom would all fit into next years cap.

Probably zero chance. And a good chance all 3 are gone, hope not but prepare for it.

Focussing on Toffoli, if we can keep him for 3-4 years I'm good. Madden could be nothing or have a prolific 10 year career...either way, if we can keep Toffoli I won't sweat what Madden does.
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Re: Canucks add Toffoli (Schaller, Madden, 2nd, cond 4th)

Post by Richardstroker69 »

Doyle Hargraves wrote: Tue Feb 18, 2020 12:40 pm
Nuckertuzzi wrote: Tue Feb 18, 2020 12:31 pm
SKYO wrote: Tue Feb 18, 2020 9:45 am And we kept our top two prospects:
1) Podz
2) Hogs

+ Lind, 6'3 LW Aidan McDonough, DiPietro

Additionally we kept all our dmen prospects: Rathbone, OJ, Woo, Rafferty.


Will the list remain the same after next week?

We definitely have an abundance and therefore I was prepared to see a prospect or two go, even a good one, the math and the injuries pointed to it. Just not a big fan of prospect(s) for rentals unless we are a truly contending team that's close. Not sure we're there but I get why now with the weak West.

So I have mixed feelings on this one. If any fan base should know careless rental deals are what sets teams back for years (that coupled with bad drafting in Gillis' case) so that is the only reason I'm a bit on the fence. But I've liked Toffoli for a long time and if we can keep him longer I'd be more on board.
If you could re-sign him it changes things. Makes the deal a fair bit more understandable.

Maybe they’ve gotten negative vibes on preliminary contract discussions with Tanev and/or Markstrom. There’s pretty much no chance all three of Toffoli, Tanev and Markstrom would all fit into next years cap.
Tanev is gone, Schenn is back
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Re: Canucks add Toffoli (Schaller, Madden, 2nd, cond 4th)

Post by Doyle Hargraves »

That’s not a massive downgrade. :lol: They should sign Mike Smith or Mike Condon to replace Markstrom :lol: :lol:
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Re: Canucks add Toffoli (Schaller, Madden, 2nd, cond 4th)

Post by Strangelove »

Nuckertuzzi wrote: Tue Feb 18, 2020 12:54 pm
Doyle Hargraves wrote: Tue Feb 18, 2020 12:40 pm There’s pretty much no chance all three of Toffoli, Tanev and Markstrom would all fit into next years cap.
Probably zero chance. And a good chance all 3 are gone
:roll:
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Re: Canucks add Toffoli (Schaller, Madden, 2nd, cond 4th)

Post by Meds »

Nuckertuzzi wrote: Tue Feb 18, 2020 12:54 pm
Doyle Hargraves wrote: Tue Feb 18, 2020 12:40 pm There’s pretty much no chance all three of Toffoli, Tanev and Markstrom would all fit into next years cap.

Probably zero chance. And a good chance all 3 are gone, hope not but prepare for it.

Focussing on Toffoli, if we can keep him for 3-4 years I'm good. Madden could be nothing or have a prolific 10 year career...either way, if we can keep Toffoli I won't sweat what Madden does.
I gotta say I love CapFriendly's Armchair GM feature.....

I set the cap to $82.5M (most speculations I've seen predict $83.5M but I wanted to be conservative).

I traded Baertschi and Eriksson as offseason moves for low picks (obviously they will be cap dumps by Jim...we hope).

Miller - Pettersson - Boeser
Pearson - Horvat - Toffoli ($5.25M x 4)
Ferland - Gaudette ($3M x 2) - Virtanen ($4M x 4)
Roussel - Beagle - Sutter
MacEwen ($1.25M x 2)

Edler - Myers
Hughes
Benn

Markstrom ($6.5M x 4)
Demko

Cap total including Luongo's recapture and Spooner's buyout: $75.25M

$7.25M in cap space for 4 more skaters (at least 3 of them defensemen).

Imho either of Roussel or Sutter could be replaced by MacEwan, and Bailey should definitely be given a look.

There's also the chance that Ferland never returns (see Marc Savard or Nathan Horton), or given the Malhotra treatment.

It is very possible to replace Benn's production this year for $500K less than he's currently getting, although his experience and grit won't be found easily in a guy who can play both sides of the ice.

There are many possibilities where we keep Markstrom and Toffoli does not end up being a rental. Tweak that bottom line and move on from a couple of bloated contracts and gain an additional $3M-$6M in cap space and Tanev (or similar) becomes possible.
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Re: Canucks add Toffoli (Schaller, Madden, 2nd, cond 4th)

Post by Strangelove »

Nice work Meds, but I'll eat my hat if the cap doesn't rise at least $2M.

Speaking of nitpicking, you're a cool $1M high on each of Marko, Shotgun, and the Gaud. :drink:
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Re: Canucks add Toffoli (Schaller, Madden, 2nd, cond 4th)

Post by Doyle Hargraves »

Why is a team giving up a low pick to absorb the Air Thief’s contract? Are the Canucks shipping out Demko or Gaudette/Virtanen in this deal? There are plenty of way for teams to get to the floor. NOBODY wants LULU without an excellent prospect or really good young player attached to him. There are other ways for teams to get to the floor that don’t include helping out Vancouver with their massive blunder
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Re: Canucks add Toffoli (Schaller, Madden, 2nd, cond 4th)

Post by Strangelove »

Doyle Hargraves wrote: Tue Feb 18, 2020 4:10 pm Why is a team giving up a low pick to absorb the Air Thief’s contract? Are the Canucks shipping out Demko or Gaudette/Virtanen in this deal? There are plenty of way for teams to get to the floor. NOBODY wants LULU without an excellent prospect or really good young player attached to him. There are other ways for teams to get to the floor that don’t include helping out Vancouver with their massive blunder
Well Meds assumed Jimmy will move the air thief as a "cap dump"

... but it wouldn't cost what you're suggesting (you clown you)

Me, I have chosen to believe the air thief will simply retire. :drink:
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Re: Canucks add Toffoli (Schaller, Madden, 2nd, cond 4th)

Post by Cornuck »

Strangelove wrote: Tue Feb 18, 2020 4:19 pm Me, I have chosen to believe the air thief will simply retire. :drink:
based on.....?....
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