Offseason grades so far

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Re: Offseason grades so far

Post by Meds »

RoyalDude wrote: Tue Jul 30, 2019 6:52 am
Mëds wrote: Tue Jul 30, 2019 6:40 am Beagle without Sutter or Eriksson is not a problem.

He was brought in to win faceoffs, kill penalties, and help be a veteran mentor for the kids both on and off the ice. He is doing that.

If Beagle plays 82 games, wins 55% of his faceoffs, adds 20 points, AND helps guys like Jake, Brock, and Quinn, become better pro's, then he's worth the money.

When it comes to salaries and on-ice production, you can overpay one guy for the sake of intangibles, but we've got 3.
It will be depressing if the starting lineup for the 2018-20 regular season opening game sees the names - Eriksson, Sutter and Beagle. Seriously, lose that shit - paycheck collectors.
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Re: Offseason grades so far

Post by ESQ »

micky107 wrote: Tue Jul 30, 2019 2:13 am Three more years of Beagle isn't looking very encouraging.
https://canucksarmy.com/2019/04/29/canu ... ay-beagle/

This article is a very negative portrayal but none the less, has accuracies that are notable.
I didn't think that article was negative overall -it had the data to show Beagle had the toughest defensive zone deployment, killed penalties, and was reasonably effective at preventing shots, while playing with a lousy smorgasbord of players and coming back from a broken arm in game 5 of us season.

I think Beagle has delivered what was expected, Roussel greatly exceeded expectations, and Schaller was useless.

Rather than complain about Beagle, I look at Schaller, spooner and Sutter - 84 games between the three of them, 20 points, for $9.5 mil.
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Re: Offseason grades so far

Post by Mickey107 »

ESQ wrote: Tue Jul 30, 2019 8:16 am
micky107 wrote: Tue Jul 30, 2019 2:13 am Three more years of Beagle isn't looking very encouraging.
https://canucksarmy.com/2019/04/29/canu ... ay-beagle/

This article is a very negative portrayal but none the less, has accuracies that are notable.
I didn't think that article was negative overall -it had the data to show Beagle had the toughest defensive zone deployment, killed penalties, and was reasonably effective at preventing shots, while playing with a lousy smorgasbord of players and coming back from a broken arm in game 5 of us season.

I think Beagle has delivered what was expected, Roussel greatly exceeded expectations, and Schaller was useless.

Rather than complain about Beagle, I look at Schaller, spooner and Sutter - 84 games between the three of them, 20 points, for $9.5 mil.
Sutter Image Schaller;Image . Schaller is like Sutter Lite.

Sutter Stats; http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/pdis ... ?pid=84687

Schaller stats; http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/pdis ... pid=123525

just enough age difference they could be brothers.
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Re: Offseason grades so far

Post by UWSaint »

ESQ wrote: Tue Jul 30, 2019 8:16 am
micky107 wrote: Tue Jul 30, 2019 2:13 am Three more years of Beagle isn't looking very encouraging.
https://canucksarmy.com/2019/04/29/canu ... ay-beagle/

This article is a very negative portrayal but none the less, has accuracies that are notable.
I didn't think that article was negative overall -it had the data to show Beagle had the toughest defensive zone deployment, killed penalties, and was reasonably effective at preventing shots, while playing with a lousy smorgasbord of players and coming back from a broken arm in game 5 of us season.

I think Beagle has delivered what was expected, Roussel greatly exceeded expectations, and Schaller was useless.

Rather than complain about Beagle, I look at Schaller, spooner and Sutter - 84 games between the three of them, 20 points, for $9.5 mil.
I am not a big fan of the Beagle signing for the usual reasons (largely term at age). But in year 1, Beagle delivered exactly as expected. There is a real value to an effective PK specialist. The numbers back up that he's good on the PK, it isn't just that he plays on the PK. Improving the PK % is as important as improving the PP% -- more important when you take more penalties than you draw. And there may be value to his intangibles (though its an intangible value!), though its way harder to evaluate that value as a fan who just sees the on ice product and rarely finds meaningful value in press comments from players and the team.

Point is, many FAs don't deliver on the ice what you might hope for and Beagle did.
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Re: Offseason grades so far

Post by Cousin Strawberry »

micky107 wrote: Tue Jul 30, 2019 8:58 am

Sutter Image Schaller;Image . Schaller is like Sutter Lite.

Sutter Stats; http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/pdis ... ?pid=84687

Schaller stats; http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/pdis ... pid=123525

just enough age difference they could be brothers.
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Re: Offseason grades so far

Post by Madcombinepilot »

RoyalDude wrote: Tue Jul 30, 2019 6:29 am The emptying of the swamp is a happening slowly but surely, starting with Spooner, Granlund, Hutton and Gudbranson. The swamp won’t be completely neutralized until Beagle, Eriksson, Schaller, Baertschi and Sutter are Gonzo’d.
You cant lump the last of these place holders together.

Beagle contract is fine. its 3 Million for a 4th liner who is a PK/Defence/faceoff guy, who has conditioning as his middle name and brings a ring to the room. This is a fine contract with no movement issues when it matters. Not a big deal.

Ericksson is overpaid by 3 million for what he brings. If we had a 25 point guy who was a top of the league PK winger, and we paid him 3 million, we would be happy.. but alas.. we want his 3 million extra and the roster spot back. He was signed for 1 thing, and has delivered something else. This is why he has to go. The movement restrictions on this contract have really been JB's only mistake with this signing. Back then, the entire league thought we were getting a perennial 20-25 goal scoring top 6 winger. Loui didn't deliver and now moving him is an issue.

Baertschi is an excellent tweener. If he is even healthy, he has a spot. but for his production, he is paid correctly. and his contract has the correct term. he is an excellent value for a second round pick when this team needed a top 6 winger. If we return anything for him before his contract expires, its an extra win for JB

Schaller was cheap signing on potential. Nothing was risked with him, and he had tremendous upside, and we paid on a contract to take a chance on a player. It didn't pan out, and doesn't harm us at all as the problem self corrects in 11 more months. no risk on the term. No harm, No foul. Not a Big Deal.

<edit> Almost forgot Sutter. We have him for 2 more years. we needed another middle 6 center to ice a team. we paid a little more during a time when cap space was not an issue for us. It still isn't. His contract was timed perfectly to end when our other contracts come up. If we get something for him in a trade, great. Call up Gaudette. In the end, when he is healthy, Sutter makes the team better which is what you want every player to do. If the Sutter contract gets this team back a couple picks, or a pick and a young prospect, it works out for us. But Either way, it works out of the system before we need his cap space.
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Re: Offseason grades so far

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Madcombinepilot wrote: Tue Jul 30, 2019 10:10 am
RoyalDude wrote: Tue Jul 30, 2019 6:29 am The emptying of the swamp is a happening slowly but surely, starting with Spooner, Granlund, Hutton and Gudbranson. The swamp won’t be completely neutralized until Beagle, Eriksson, Schaller, Baertschi and Sutter are Gonzo’d.

<edit> Almost forgot Sutter. We have him for 2 more years. we needed another middle 6 center to ice a team. we paid a little more during a time when cap space was not an issue for us. It still isn't. His contract was timed perfectly to end when our other contracts come up. If we get something for him in a trade, great. Call up Gaudette. In the end, when he is healthy, Sutter makes the team better which is what you want every player to do. If the Sutter contract gets this team back a couple picks, or a pick and a young prospect, it works out for us. But Either way, it works out of the system before we need his cap space.
The first part was quite on point.

I disagree with this on Sutter. He was about $500K overpaid when we got him and Elmer re-signed him, which isn't terrible. The trade protection was asinine because we were already giving him 5 years and $500K more than he was/is worth.....so it's like here's more than your average 4 year degree'd healthcare worker can earn in almost 20 years just because of what, his last name?

When Sutter is healthy he makes the team better.....ummm not necessarily, especially not this year. There is a very real chance that, outside of the faceoff circle, Gaudette outplays him this season. If his contract and NTC make it too hard for Jimmy to move him so Gaudette can have the spot, then he's not making the team better at all, he's actively making it worse.

I'll never buy the argument that a player who is injured and on LTIR is "cap hit neutral" and therefore just a non factor either way. If he is hurt, then he's useless to us because he's not playing, and while LTIR relief let's us use his cap space for something else, it only does that to the extent that we would go over the cap to replace him. Currently his contract is making re-signing Boeser a tougher thing to sort out, and it also is eating up space that could have possibly been utilized in the free agent market to augment the team elsewhere, or even replace him. So if a player is not worth his contract, he's just simply not worth his contract.....unless he's in the Horton and Clarkson category of permanent LTIR and you know he's never coming back.
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Re: Offseason grades so far

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Mad you normally do not pay a 4th liner $3M in a cap era team regardless of how good he is on the PK.

LE right now at any $$$ is bad as his attitude sucks. At $3M playing on the 4th line and killing penalties that would still be $6M between LE and Beagle.

The reason no one had a big issue with Beagle signing last season was the fact that we figured the team was 2-3 years away from being a playoff team or a contender plus he did not take away a spot from a younger guy.

Fast forward 1 year and the team is in a different position. With the emergence of EP and the off season signings would we be happy today signing the same deal for Beagle?
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Re: Offseason grades so far

Post by Madcombinepilot »

Mëds wrote: Tue Jul 30, 2019 1:02 pm
Madcombinepilot wrote: Tue Jul 30, 2019 10:10 am
RoyalDude wrote: Tue Jul 30, 2019 6:29 am The emptying of the swamp is a happening slowly but surely, starting with Spooner, Granlund, Hutton and Gudbranson. The swamp won’t be completely neutralized until Beagle, Eriksson, Schaller, Baertschi and Sutter are Gonzo’d.

<edit> Almost forgot Sutter. We have him for 2 more years. we needed another middle 6 center to ice a team. we paid a little more during a time when cap space was not an issue for us. It still isn't. His contract was timed perfectly to end when our other contracts come up. If we get something for him in a trade, great. Call up Gaudette. In the end, when he is healthy, Sutter makes the team better which is what you want every player to do. If the Sutter contract gets this team back a couple picks, or a pick and a young prospect, it works out for us. But Either way, it works out of the system before we need his cap space.
The first part was quite on point.

I disagree with this on Sutter. He was about $500K overpaid when we got him and Elmer re-signed him, which isn't terrible. The trade protection was asinine because we were already giving him 5 years and $500K more than he was/is worth.....so it's like here's more than your average 4 year degree'd healthcare worker can earn in almost 20 years just because of what, his last name?

When Sutter is healthy he makes the team better.....ummm not necessarily, especially not this year. There is a very real chance that, outside of the faceoff circle, Gaudette outplays him this season. If his contract and NTC make it too hard for Jimmy to move him so Gaudette can have the spot, then he's not making the team better at all, he's actively making it worse.

I'll never buy the argument that a player who is injured and on LTIR is "cap hit neutral" and therefore just a non factor either way. If he is hurt, then he's useless to us because he's not playing, and while LTIR relief let's us use his cap space for something else, it only does that to the extent that we would go over the cap to replace him. Currently his contract is making re-signing Boeser a tougher thing to sort out, and it also is eating up space that could have possibly been utilized in the free agent market to augment the team elsewhere, or even replace him. So if a player is not worth his contract, he's just simply not worth his contract.....unless he's in the Horton and Clarkson category of permanent LTIR and you know he's never coming back.
I will agree that there should have been little to no trade protection for Sutter with that contract, but at least it wasn't a full NMC. We can move him if we need to, not a big deal.

When the contract was first extended (again, probably a million too much and a year too long), Sutter did make the team better. we had NO talent. Its a sign of the development that new players have made him expendable. When we move him for a pick and a prospect over the next 18 months (and Gaudette goes full time in that spot), that contract wont look so bad in hindsight. Hell, even if he just plays his contract out, its not that bad because it ends at the right time. This team needs 5 centers for depth.. 6 is better.
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Re: Offseason grades so far

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Reefer2 wrote: Tue Jul 30, 2019 1:37 pm Mad you normally do not pay a 4th liner $3M in a cap era team regardless of how good he is on the PK.
If your just paying placeholders I agree. But if your 4th line is 6 million total, and your center is bringing more to the table, your ok. Beags brings grit, a ring, and AWESOME work ethic and fitness. (can you imagine if Goldobin had that kind of role model on a winning team??) League average is now 4 million a player, so 3M is ok.. so long as we make that extra 500k in Beags salary up somewhere else, we are ok. if your team is cap fucked because you pay a single guy 500k too much, you will have other issues. The problem we have is Loui is on our 4th line which inflates the lines salary.

LE right now at any $$$ is bad as his attitude sucks. At $3M playing on the 4th line and killing penalties that would still be $6M between LE and Beagle.

The reason no one had a big issue with Beagle signing last season was the fact that we figured the team was 2-3 years away from being a playoff team or a contender plus he did not take away a spot from a younger guy.
cant Blame Beagle for Erickssons contract. LE at 3 million and an ELC or Minimum contact (Motte?) that brings it, yeah, 7 million for a hard checking (motte contract/ELC), face off winning/PK shutdown 4th line is worth 7 million.. that shit wins you cups.. IF your making that million up somewhere else in the lineup.

If looked at in a specific instance, you can argue the extra 500k in salary until your blue in the face.. but a team is made up of moving parts. You just gotta make it up somewhere else.
Fast forward 1 year and the team is in a different position. With the emergence of EP and the off season signings would we be happy today signing the same deal for Beagle?
if it was a 3 year deal instead of 4, then yes. We still need a center, and our budget is about 3 million...

but your asking a shit question with you using 20-20 hindsight, and me projecting futures. its a loaded, baiting question. jus sayn.. ;)
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Re: Offseason grades so far

Post by Richardstroker69 »

Mëds wrote: Tue Jul 30, 2019 1:02 pm
Madcombinepilot wrote: Tue Jul 30, 2019 10:10 am
RoyalDude wrote: Tue Jul 30, 2019 6:29 am The emptying of the swamp is a happening slowly but surely, starting with Spooner, Granlund, Hutton and Gudbranson. The swamp won’t be completely neutralized until Beagle, Eriksson, Schaller, Baertschi and Sutter are Gonzo’d.

<edit> Almost forgot Sutter. We have him for 2 more years. we needed another middle 6 center to ice a team. we paid a little more during a time when cap space was not an issue for us. It still isn't. His contract was timed perfectly to end when our other contracts come up. If we get something for him in a trade, great. Call up Gaudette. In the end, when he is healthy, Sutter makes the team better which is what you want every player to do. If the Sutter contract gets this team back a couple picks, or a pick and a young prospect, it works out for us. But Either way, it works out of the system before we need his cap space.
The first part was quite on point.

I disagree with this on Sutter. He was about $500K overpaid when we got him and Elmer re-signed him, which isn't terrible. The trade protection was asinine because we were already giving him 5 years and $500K more than he was/is worth.....so it's like here's more than your average 4 year degree'd healthcare worker can earn in almost 20 years just because of what, his last name?

When Sutter is healthy he makes the team better.....ummm not necessarily, especially not this year. There is a very real chance that, outside of the faceoff circle, Gaudette outplays him this season. If his contract and NTC make it too hard for Jimmy to move him so Gaudette can have the spot, then he's not making the team better at all, he's actively making it worse.

I'll never buy the argument that a player who is injured and on LTIR is "cap hit neutral" and therefore just a non factor either way. If he is hurt, then he's useless to us because he's not playing, and while LTIR relief let's us use his cap space for something else, it only does that to the extent that we would go over the cap to replace him. Currently his contract is making re-signing Boeser a tougher thing to sort out, and it also is eating up space that could have possibly been utilized in the free agent market to augment the team elsewhere, or even replace him. So if a player is not worth his contract, he's just simply not worth his contract.....unless he's in the Horton and Clarkson category of permanent LTIR and you know he's never coming back.
Sutter 2 seasons ago is miles better than gaudette last year, in fact if gaudette can get to that level that would be fantastic for where we got him. If that’s the version we get and I’d assume it is considering he’s had a lot of time to heal, than he’s a better option than gaudette for this year. If gaudette has taken a huge jump in development and is ready, sutter easily slides into the right wing slot and helps gaudette with faceoff duty. Sutter at wing is a better option than motte, schaller, Leivo, goldobin. We talk about beagles pk presence but sutters is even more pronounced he may be top 10 pker in the league.
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Re: Offseason grades so far

Post by ESQ »

Reefer2 wrote: Tue Jul 30, 2019 1:37 pm Mad you normally do not pay a 4th liner $3M in a cap era team regardless of how good he is on the PK.
What do you pay your best PKer/defensive forward?

Especially when it takes Bo off the PK?
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Re: Offseason grades so far

Post by Meds »

Richardstroker69 wrote: Tue Jul 30, 2019 4:05 pm
Mëds wrote: Tue Jul 30, 2019 1:02 pm
Madcombinepilot wrote: Tue Jul 30, 2019 10:10 am
RoyalDude wrote: Tue Jul 30, 2019 6:29 am The emptying of the swamp is a happening slowly but surely, starting with Spooner, Granlund, Hutton and Gudbranson. The swamp won’t be completely neutralized until Beagle, Eriksson, Schaller, Baertschi and Sutter are Gonzo’d.

<edit> Almost forgot Sutter. We have him for 2 more years. we needed another middle 6 center to ice a team. we paid a little more during a time when cap space was not an issue for us. It still isn't. His contract was timed perfectly to end when our other contracts come up. If we get something for him in a trade, great. Call up Gaudette. In the end, when he is healthy, Sutter makes the team better which is what you want every player to do. If the Sutter contract gets this team back a couple picks, or a pick and a young prospect, it works out for us. But Either way, it works out of the system before we need his cap space.
The first part was quite on point.

I disagree with this on Sutter. He was about $500K overpaid when we got him and Elmer re-signed him, which isn't terrible. The trade protection was asinine because we were already giving him 5 years and $500K more than he was/is worth.....so it's like here's more than your average 4 year degree'd healthcare worker can earn in almost 20 years just because of what, his last name?

When Sutter is healthy he makes the team better.....ummm not necessarily, especially not this year. There is a very real chance that, outside of the faceoff circle, Gaudette outplays him this season. If his contract and NTC make it too hard for Jimmy to move him so Gaudette can have the spot, then he's not making the team better at all, he's actively making it worse.

I'll never buy the argument that a player who is injured and on LTIR is "cap hit neutral" and therefore just a non factor either way. If he is hurt, then he's useless to us because he's not playing, and while LTIR relief let's us use his cap space for something else, it only does that to the extent that we would go over the cap to replace him. Currently his contract is making re-signing Boeser a tougher thing to sort out, and it also is eating up space that could have possibly been utilized in the free agent market to augment the team elsewhere, or even replace him. So if a player is not worth his contract, he's just simply not worth his contract.....unless he's in the Horton and Clarkson category of permanent LTIR and you know he's never coming back.
Sutter 2 seasons ago is miles better than gaudette last year, in fact if gaudette can get to that level that would be fantastic for where we got him. If that’s the version we get and I’d assume it is considering he’s had a lot of time to heal, than he’s a better option than gaudette for this year. If gaudette has taken a huge jump in development and is ready, sutter easily slides into the right wing slot and helps gaudette with faceoff duty. Sutter at wing is a better option than motte, schaller, Leivo, goldobin. We talk about beagles pk presence but sutters is even more pronounced he may be top 10 pker in the league.
Sutter (2016-17): 81GP 17G 17A -20 18:48TOI 2:35PPTOI 8PPPt

Gaudette (2018-19): 56GP 5G 7A -6 10:48TOI 1:22PPTOI 2PPPt

Not exactly what I'd call miles better there bud.
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Re: Offseason grades so far

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ESQ wrote: Tue Jul 30, 2019 6:12 pm
Reefer2 wrote: Tue Jul 30, 2019 1:37 pm Mad you normally do not pay a 4th liner $3M in a cap era team regardless of how good he is on the PK.
What do you pay your best PKer/defensive forward?

Especially when it takes Bo off the PK?
Not $3M unless they can do more than just PK, they should be 3rd line and playing those type of minutes, probably also playing against the opponents top line. If Beagle can do that then he is worth his cap hit.

Not in front of a PC as I’m out of country and do not Doc all over my engrish but each line usually has an expected cap hit for each player. No team can properly field a team where you have $6-$9M tied up on the 4th line, regardless if they are good PK.
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Re: Offseason grades so far

Post by Richardstroker69 »

Mëds wrote: Tue Jul 30, 2019 6:57 pm
Richardstroker69 wrote: Tue Jul 30, 2019 4:05 pm
Mëds wrote: Tue Jul 30, 2019 1:02 pm
Madcombinepilot wrote: Tue Jul 30, 2019 10:10 am
RoyalDude wrote: Tue Jul 30, 2019 6:29 am The emptying of the swamp is a happening slowly but surely, starting with Spooner, Granlund, Hutton and Gudbranson. The swamp won’t be completely neutralized until Beagle, Eriksson, Schaller, Baertschi and Sutter are Gonzo’d.

<edit> Almost forgot Sutter. We have him for 2 more years. we needed another middle 6 center to ice a team. we paid a little more during a time when cap space was not an issue for us. It still isn't. His contract was timed perfectly to end when our other contracts come up. If we get something for him in a trade, great. Call up Gaudette. In the end, when he is healthy, Sutter makes the team better which is what you want every player to do. If the Sutter contract gets this team back a couple picks, or a pick and a young prospect, it works out for us. But Either way, it works out of the system before we need his cap space.
The first part was quite on point.

I disagree with this on Sutter. He was about $500K overpaid when we got him and Elmer re-signed him, which isn't terrible. The trade protection was asinine because we were already giving him 5 years and $500K more than he was/is worth.....so it's like here's more than your average 4 year degree'd healthcare worker can earn in almost 20 years just because of what, his last name?

When Sutter is healthy he makes the team better.....ummm not necessarily, especially not this year. There is a very real chance that, outside of the faceoff circle, Gaudette outplays him this season. If his contract and NTC make it too hard for Jimmy to move him so Gaudette can have the spot, then he's not making the team better at all, he's actively making it worse.

I'll never buy the argument that a player who is injured and on LTIR is "cap hit neutral" and therefore just a non factor either way. If he is hurt, then he's useless to us because he's not playing, and while LTIR relief let's us use his cap space for something else, it only does that to the extent that we would go over the cap to replace him. Currently his contract is making re-signing Boeser a tougher thing to sort out, and it also is eating up space that could have possibly been utilized in the free agent market to augment the team elsewhere, or even replace him. So if a player is not worth his contract, he's just simply not worth his contract.....unless he's in the Horton and Clarkson category of permanent LTIR and you know he's never coming back.
Sutter 2 seasons ago is miles better than gaudette last year, in fact if gaudette can get to that level that would be fantastic for where we got him. If that’s the version we get and I’d assume it is considering he’s had a lot of time to heal, than he’s a better option than gaudette for this year. If gaudette has taken a huge jump in development and is ready, sutter easily slides into the right wing slot and helps gaudette with faceoff duty. Sutter at wing is a better option than motte, schaller, Leivo, goldobin. We talk about beagles pk presence but sutters is even more pronounced he may be top 10 pker in the league.
Sutter (2016-17): 81GP 17G 17A -20 18:48TOI 2:35PPTOI 8PPPt

Gaudette (2018-19): 56GP 5G 7A -6 10:48TOI 1:22PPTOI 2PPPt

Not exactly what I'd call miles better there bud.
He had the toughest matchups on the team, had 75% dzone starts that year and was a huge part of the penalty kill. Gaudette can’t handle that at this stage of his career. I think if sutter is playing actual third line minutes against equal competition he’ll have a bounce back year, less injuries and contribute more on the score sheet. I’m not advocating sutter over gaudette though if gaudette shows he’s better than he was last year. I just think there’s room for sutter at wing if gaudette is ready to play center.
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