2019 offseason

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micky107
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Re: 2019 offseason

Post by micky107 » Thu Aug 08, 2019 12:25 am

.
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UWSaint
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Re: 2019 offseason

Post by UWSaint » Thu Aug 08, 2019 10:23 am

Tciso wrote:
Tue Aug 06, 2019 6:06 pm
Island Nucklehead wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 9:05 am
Hockey Widow wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 11:36 pm
I don’t think Goldobin clears waivers. If we sign him it will be on the cheap and his occasional offensive flashes will make him an enticing reclamation project for someone. If he doesn’t fit on the team in Benning, or Green’s eyes, I’d rather they move him for something.
I don't think there would be much of a market for him. Every teams has players of his calibre looking to crack an NHL lineup. He'll be available for the cost of a fax in a couple months.
Leivo and Motte still have to beat out Goldobin in training camp. Any one of those 3 could be trade/waiver bait. If all 3 show well in training camp, Benning might simply trade the one that he gets the highest offer for. All 3 have kinda different roles, but all 3 are also spare parts/depth guys. It will be interesting to see what strides any of these 3 have made over summer.
One of JB's general strategies at the draft is to place more weight on ceiling than likelihood of making the NHL cut. You know, give me a guy with a 10% chance to be an all-star and a 50% chance to never stick in the league than a guy with a 15% chance to be top 6 but a 85% chance of sticking in some role.

I think there is sense to this approach, because the acquisition costs of getting a serviceable (yet fungible) NHL player is low. A "safe" pick hitting a low ceiling just isn't much better than acquiring that guy through other means.

Given the team's quantity of wings in the system, I also think the same should approach should be applied to the Motte, Leivo, Goldobin decision. Of these three, Motte has the lowest floor -- and the lowest ceiling. Motte is a guy coaches like because the effort is high and he plays pretty smart. Coaches like that stuff, because its the stuff they emphasize, its the stuff they feel they can affect (poor effort reflects badly on the coaches, poor skill does not), and because they systematically overvalue the negative impact of mistakes v. the negative impact of plays never made. (This last bias is why people had trouble seeing how awful Gudbrandson was and how Josh Leivo was absolutely the wrong guy to pair with Pettersson and Boeser).

Goldobin has by far the highest ceiling in this group. He's two and a half years younger than Leivo (and has as many NHL points). He's also younger than Motte (less than a year; one draft year). He has very good skating and hands and is highly creative, but backchecks poorly (reflecting on effort) and struggles with finish. (Others might also criticize his high risk plays; I think he needs to cut down on high risk, low reward plays, but high risk high reward plays are exciting and smart, if it's not a one goal lead in the 3rd and the Canucks don't have a ton of guys who can make those plays).

If Goldobin develops to his ceiling as a productive skilled line player with occasional (rather then chronic) defensive lapses, he transforms the Canucks. Maybe the chance this happens is down to 15-25%, but Motte and Leivo playing at their ceilings simply do not transform the Canucks.

For the right price, players should be traded, particularly non-core players. So I'm not weighing in on that. The point of this post is that the move with the highest potential return during the window that begins NOW is for Goldobin to get one more shot to play a skilled game.
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Todd Bersnoozi
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Re: 2019 offseason

Post by Todd Bersnoozi » Thu Aug 08, 2019 11:09 am

I'll be surprised if the Golden One makes the team this season.

I think the 2 main reasons are:
a) There is simply no room for him now
b) Greener is not a big fan of him

I heard Botch say this b4 he passed (bless his soul). He thought that Greener sees Golds as the same type of player as Sam Gagner. A good skilled player who can score a bit in the regular season, but not a player who will help his team win in the tight checking/physical playoffs. Pretty much a dime a dozen player kicking around the NHL/AHL. Unless JB makes some deals to move out some of our LWers like Eriksson, Baercheese, Schaller, I think Golds pretty much has a one way ticket to Utica, if he clears waiver.

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Re: 2019 offseason

Post by micky107 » Thu Aug 08, 2019 11:16 am

UWSaint wrote:
Thu Aug 08, 2019 10:23 am

Goldobin has by far the highest ceiling in this group. He's two and a half years younger than Leivo (and has as many NHL points). He's also younger than Motte (less than a year; one draft year). He has very good skating and hands and is highly creative, but backchecks poorly (reflecting on effort) and struggles with finish. (Others might also criticize his high risk plays; I think he needs to cut down on high risk, low reward plays, but high risk high reward plays are exciting and smart, if it's not a one goal lead in the 3rd and the Canucks don't have a ton of guys who can make those plays).

If Goldobin develops to his ceiling as a productive skilled line player with occasional (rather then chronic) defensive lapses, he transforms the Canucks. Maybe the chance this happens is down to 15-25%, but Motte and Leivo playing at their ceilings simply do not transform the Canucks.

For the right price, players should be traded, particularly non-core players. So I'm not weighing in on that. The point of this post is that the move with the highest potential return during the window that begins NOW is for Goldobin to get one more shot to play a skilled game.
I agree. First, Benning has to somehow get Brock Boeser signed above all else, hopefully in time for day 1 of camp. If the cap space can be cleared, then I believe, (for the same reasons you listed), that Goldobin "can" evolve into a well rounded player. That being said, he needs to heed the direction the coach puts forth for him to follow along the way.
This may be difficult budgetary wise. He may insist on a raise on his previous contract
.
What would be your guess? The same/ 200k more? What about term>
Ya, 23 years old and pretty damned gifted. If it were my call, I'd say a very slight raise and two years and two way.
Hell, I wanna keep Jake too.
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Re: 2019 offseason

Post by Strangelove » Thu Aug 08, 2019 11:19 am

Yeahno, get something for Goldie while you still can, let someone else take that 15-25% gamble.

Have I ever suggested Goldie + Tree + Loui to Ottawa for a 4th? :D
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Re: 2019 offseason

Post by micky107 » Thu Aug 08, 2019 11:28 am

Todd Bersnoozi wrote:
Thu Aug 08, 2019 11:09 am
I'll be surprised if the Golden One makes the team this season.

I think the 2 main reasons are:
a) There is simply no room for him now
b) Greener is not a big fan of him

I heard Botch say this b4 he passed (bless his soul). He thought that Greener sees Golds as the same type of player as Sam Gagner. A good skilled player who can score a bit in the regular season, but not a player who will help his team win in the tight checking/physical playoffs. Pretty much a dime a dozen player kicking around the NHL/AHL. Unless JB makes some deals to move out some of our LWers like Eriksson, Baercheese, Schaller, I think Golds pretty much has a one way ticket to Utica, if he clears waiver.
Are you sure about B Todd? I think when a coach like Green shows some real :evil: consistently towards certain players, that means he believes
there's hope (ie, Jake)
I think the majority of Canuck fans want Eriksson and Schaller gone.
I do think Baertschi has some value and would most assuredly explore moving him in a cap dump, (meaning we take a pick only). Dream on, Mick.
He's not ever likely to play a hardass game for fear on further concussions hence, IMO, not a valuable guy for playoff hockey...
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Re: 2019 offseason

Post by DonCherry4PM » Thu Aug 08, 2019 11:32 am

UWSaint wrote:
Thu Aug 08, 2019 10:23 am
Tciso wrote:
Tue Aug 06, 2019 6:06 pm
Island Nucklehead wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 9:05 am
Hockey Widow wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 11:36 pm
I don’t think Goldobin clears waivers. If we sign him it will be on the cheap and his occasional offensive flashes will make him an enticing reclamation project for someone. If he doesn’t fit on the team in Benning, or Green’s eyes, I’d rather they move him for something.
I don't think there would be much of a market for him. Every teams has players of his calibre looking to crack an NHL lineup. He'll be available for the cost of a fax in a couple months.
Leivo and Motte still have to beat out Goldobin in training camp. Any one of those 3 could be trade/waiver bait. If all 3 show well in training camp, Benning might simply trade the one that he gets the highest offer for. All 3 have kinda different roles, but all 3 are also spare parts/depth guys. It will be interesting to see what strides any of these 3 have made over summer.
One of JB's general strategies at the draft is to place more weight on ceiling than likelihood of making the NHL cut. You know, give me a guy with a 10% chance to be an all-star and a 50% chance to never stick in the league than a guy with a 15% chance to be top 6 but a 85% chance of sticking in some role.

I think there is sense to this approach, because the acquisition costs of getting a serviceable (yet fungible) NHL player is low. A "safe" pick hitting a low ceiling just isn't much better than acquiring that guy through other means.

Given the team's quantity of wings in the system, I also think the same should approach should be applied to the Motte, Leivo, Goldobin decision. Of these three, Motte has the lowest floor -- and the lowest ceiling. Motte is a guy coaches like because the effort is high and he plays pretty smart. Coaches like that stuff, because its the stuff they emphasize, its the stuff they feel they can affect (poor effort reflects badly on the coaches, poor skill does not), and because they systematically overvalue the negative impact of mistakes v. the negative impact of plays never made. (This last bias is why people had trouble seeing how awful Gudbrandson was and how Josh Leivo was absolutely the wrong guy to pair with Pettersson and Boeser).

Goldobin has by far the highest ceiling in this group. He's two and a half years younger than Leivo (and has as many NHL points). He's also younger than Motte (less than a year; one draft year). He has very good skating and hands and is highly creative, but backchecks poorly (reflecting on effort) and struggles with finish. (Others might also criticize his high risk plays; I think he needs to cut down on high risk, low reward plays, but high risk high reward plays are exciting and smart, if it's not a one goal lead in the 3rd and the Canucks don't have a ton of guys who can make those plays).

If Goldobin develops to his ceiling as a productive skilled line player with occasional (rather then chronic) defensive lapses, he transforms the Canucks. Maybe the chance this happens is down to 15-25%, but Motte and Leivo playing at their ceilings simply do not transform the Canucks.

For the right price, players should be traded, particularly non-core players. So I'm not weighing in on that. The point of this post is that the move with the highest potential return during the window that begins NOW is for Goldobin to get one more shot to play a skilled game.
Another good post. Fully agree respecting Goldobin, but I think we are in the minority on that. Right before he was permanently riding the pine in the latter half of the season he put together a few really solid games - probably the best of his tenure as a Canuck. If he is able to consistently put those up and, like you say, avoid having "chronic" defensive lapses, he will definitely be a player worth having (and worth having patience for).
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Vincibility lies in the enemy.

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Re: 2019 offseason

Post by micky107 » Thu Aug 08, 2019 11:43 am

Strangelove wrote:
Thu Aug 08, 2019 11:19 am
Yeahno, get something for Goldie while you still can, let someone else take that 15-25% gamble.

Have I ever suggested Goldie + Tree + Loui to Ottawa for a 4th? :D
Doc; your still unsuspended. Throw that stuff on the Sens place and see if anything sticks. :)
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Re: 2019 offseason

Post by Hockey Widow » Thu Aug 08, 2019 11:48 am

Putting players in a position to succeed is also critical. I don’t think Green does that. And I get it, he has to ice the team/players he feels give the team the best chance to win. But it doesn’t do wonders for development.

I think Goldobin has the potential to be a 60+ guy. His ceiling could be higher given the right team. He needs to be in a top six to accomplish that.
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Re: 2019 offseason

Post by Strangelove » Thu Aug 08, 2019 11:52 am

micky107 wrote:
Thu Aug 08, 2019 11:43 am
Strangelove wrote:
Thu Aug 08, 2019 11:19 am
Yeahno, get something for Goldie while you still can, let someone else take that 15-25% gamble.

Have I ever suggested Goldie + Tree + Loui to Ottawa for a 4th? :D
Doc; your still unsuspended. Throw that stuff on the Sens place and see if anything sticks. :)
Yeahno, Sens management usually does the opposite of what Sens fans want. :wink:
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Re: 2019 offseason

Post by Strangelove » Thu Aug 08, 2019 11:54 am

Hockey Widow wrote:
Thu Aug 08, 2019 11:48 am
Putting players in a position to succeed is also critical. I don’t think Green does that. And I get it, he has to ice the team/players he feels give the team the best chance to win. But it doesn’t do wonders for development.

I think Goldobin has the potential to be a 60+ guy. His ceiling could be higher given the right team. He needs to be in a top six to accomplish that.
This is exactly what Jimmy needs to say to Dorion. :mex:
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Re: 2019 offseason

Post by dangler » Thu Aug 08, 2019 1:20 pm

Strangelove wrote:
Thu Aug 08, 2019 11:19 am
Yeahno, get something for Goldie while you still can, let someone else take that 15-25% gamble.

Have I ever suggested Goldie + Tree + Loui to Ottawa for a 4th? :D
Those kind of "sweetners" i can handle
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Re: 2019 offseason

Post by Doyle Hargraves » Thu Aug 08, 2019 1:41 pm

dangler wrote:
Thu Aug 08, 2019 1:20 pm
Strangelove wrote:
Thu Aug 08, 2019 11:19 am
Yeahno, get something for Goldie while you still can, let someone else take that 15-25% gamble.

Have I ever suggested Goldie + Tree + Loui to Ottawa for a 4th? :D
Those kind of "sweetners" i can handle
Doubtful that’s enough for Ottawa
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Re: 2019 offseason

Post by Todd Bersnoozi » Thu Aug 08, 2019 1:59 pm

micky107 wrote:
Thu Aug 08, 2019 11:28 am
Are you sure about B Todd? I think when a coach like Green shows some real :evil: consistently towards certain players, that means he believes
there's hope (ie, Jake)
Yeah, Greener did show some hard luv to Jake and BHutt to get them to turn around their games. Greener might change towards Gold as well, but I'd be quite surprised if that happens. Although skilled, I'm not sure Golds has that attitude/demeanor to do anything it takes to win over the coach.

I think Golds has to be a top 6 to be a good player in the NHL. I don't think he has the skillset/attitude to be a checker/grinder to fit our bottom 6. Right now on the wings, we have Brockstar, JT, Pearson, Leivo, Jake, Ferkland and Bear all ahead of him. I don't see Golds beating any of those guys out. We'll see @ camp. Don't get me wrong, I always kind of liked Golds. I'd keep him over Bearcheese, simply because of the salaries; however, I won't miss him if we lose him cuz we have lots of guys to fill in on the wings now and I think all those are more proven and have more potential than Golds. Golds has a nice skillset, but he's not elite skilled. I'm not sure he's hungry enuff or has the willingness to pay the price to score to have a successful NHL career. He's probably better suited to play in the KHL.

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Re: 2019 offseason

Post by The Brown Wizard » Thu Aug 08, 2019 3:56 pm

I think goldy deserves another crack. There is definitely elite level talent lurking below the surface on that one and it would lick pipe to see him find his game somewhere else.

Let him show what he can do at camp and go from there.
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