2019 NHL ENTRY DRAFT - Vancouver

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Richardstroker69
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Re: 2019 NHL ENTRY DRAFT - Vancouver

Post by Richardstroker69 » Tue Jun 11, 2019 8:45 am

BingoTough wrote:
Tue Jun 11, 2019 4:07 am
Reefer2 wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 10:19 pm
BingoTough wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 9:32 pm
Meds wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 1:17 pm
Yeah that was kinda my point.

That our bottom 4 forwards are sucking up WAY too much cap for their value (Beagle excepted) and we can't actually address legit roster needs without moving them out.
It's okay, cap space doesn't matter during a rebuild :D

:steps back:
I know, I have always loved that argument. Some people just don’t get it.
I found this paper to be an interesting read which tries to assign a value to draft picks, and gives more credence to the argument that using your cap space as an asset to gain picks by allowing teams to divest of bad deals. Late round picks aren't worthless, just not as valuable. Similarly, a 4,5,6th rounder is essentially the same if you consider "games played" as your only measure. It's obvious that shouldn't be your only measure but its an easy proxy for value.

It's hard to quantify the benefit of having a "high character" player like Sutter who teaches the right way to play and leadership (both doubtful when it comes to Sutter) although both that and the inverse (it's a bad idea to import players with a "bad attitude") seem intuitively true.
How many take on bad contracts deals happen every year? You numbnuts talk like this is a regular occurrence, it’s not (maybe one or two per year). Than when the rumours of us doing just that (Lucic, zaitsev) people have hissy fits. Cap space does not matter near as much during a rebuild and you still have to ice a team that’s competitive otherwise you get the Buffalo edmonton loser mentality. Guys like beagle, Sutter, don’t move the needle much but they at least compete hard and help the young guys get acclimatized to the nhl.

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Re: 2019 NHL ENTRY DRAFT - Vancouver

Post by micky107 » Tue Jun 11, 2019 9:39 am

I have listened to Sutter, many times, and have never thought of him as a leader on this team.
Note: I am completely prejudice when it comes to BS.
Still he isn't. Beagle probably is, (small sample size).
Eriksson is a leader of glorification in his own mind.
Biega, IS a leader in a work ethic and "no bitching" sort of way.
"evolution"

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Re: 2019 NHL ENTRY DRAFT - Vancouver

Post by theman » Tue Jun 11, 2019 10:07 am

I actually have no problem with Beagle's contract. Apparently he trains like a mad man in the off season and takes practice like it is a full blown game. Those are good examples for our young players. Now, we have both Sutter's contract and his. That is a problem. One needs to go and I would trade Sutter.

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Re: 2019 NHL ENTRY DRAFT - Vancouver

Post by Meds » Tue Jun 11, 2019 11:05 am

Richardstroker69 wrote:
Tue Jun 11, 2019 8:45 am
How many take on bad contracts deals happen every year? You numbnuts talk like this is a regular occurrence, it’s not (maybe one or two per year). Than when the rumours of us doing just that (Lucic, zaitsev) people have hissy fits. Cap space does not matter near as much during a rebuild and you still have to ice a team that’s competitive otherwise you get the Buffalo edmonton loser mentality. Guys like beagle, Sutter, don’t move the needle much but they at least compete hard and help the young guys get acclimatized to the nhl.
That statement contradicts itself.

I would agree with the first part, that cap space doesn't matter during a rebuild, but only insofar as it applies to the first phase of a rebuild. The first phase is where you shed bloat and aging assets that will not be part of the new roster when it's time to win, but will be of benefit to a team that is in win now mode. So you can take on bad contracts and say to hell with cap space because you are charging more to take on the deadweight so you can acquire the chips you need for the future.

There is also a time to be dealing out players who other teams will take a chance on in terms of health or need of a change of scenery.

The Canucks are not in phase one anymore, and they should be looking to emerge from middle phase soon. The rebuild has gone long enough now that cap space is starting to matter. Horvat is now 24, if we continue along the trajectory we are on he will be closing in on 30 before we are even close to being a team that people might peg as having a chance to contend for even the conference finals. We've had some vets who can teach work ethic, now it's time for a few of the guys, like Bo, to take on that role and start surrounding the young, emerging, core with players who help them win, while providing cap space that will permit contract extensions as well as strong new additions.

Tanev fits the mold of quality vet who could help a "win now" team and also return a worthwhile future asset for the Canucks.

Baertschi is a guy who another GM choose to ignore his previous health issues and risk a pick and/or prospect on in order to fill a 2nd/3rd line role where the hope is that some secondary scoring might come from further down the lineup than otherwise expected.

Eriksson, Sutter, and Spooner, are the players currently on the roster who are taking up far more cap value than what they actually bring to the team.

When a team like Vancouver misses out on the playoffs by as much as they did this past season, and the fall from challenging can be attributed to an incredible rash of injuries to key players so late in the season, it means the time has come to add talent that helps you win. If you are unable to do that because of current underachieving players have contracts sucking up cap space and are difficult to move, then you have reached the point where cap space matters to the rebuild.

We are there this summer.

I'm not saying that Benning won't be able to move some of these guys, but it might cost more to do it than some of us are comfortable with.

I'm also not faulting Benning for signing Eriksson for $6M. He was a 30 goal scorer and should not have been such a disappointment here. Shit happens.

I do think signing Gagner was an unnecessary risk simply because he went more than 2 years on a player that did not warrant that kind of commitment for what he would bring to the table. The resulting trade for Spooner was a lateral move that was risk free simply because both guys were playing like crap.

Sutter was a mediocre (at best) trade, and a poor extension signing. Considering that it was 3 years ago Sutter was not worth 5 years at that price tag. Right now a 3rd line, defensive, face-off winning, pivot who had only scored 40 points once, and with 2 exceptions was a 15 goal, 30 point, scorer, might be worth $4M. That player was not worth that kind of cash and commitment 3 years ago.

This draft, and off-season, Benning needs to do well.

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Re: 2019 NHL ENTRY DRAFT - Vancouver

Post by SKYO » Tue Jun 11, 2019 11:24 am

We will keep Sutter unless we can get a upgrade, he plays an actually not so easy to get #3C, (when he's healthy) he plays a reliable speedy checking game who can chip in 15ish goals, faceoff wiz, team plays better overall when both Sutter and Beagle are playing 100% behind #40/#53.

Our center depth is pretty lame as it is.

Pettersson
Horvat
Sutter
Beagle

Gaudette can play center, but is pretty weak yet, not so good on faceoffs, inexperienced.
*I suppose you can slot in spooner and schaller, but they seem to be not in the plans.

Get a couple of those guys injured and you got another losing season.
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Re: 2019 NHL ENTRY DRAFT - Vancouver

Post by Reefer2 » Tue Jun 11, 2019 12:51 pm

Meds wrote:
Tue Jun 11, 2019 11:05 am
*Meds long post*
Good post but to the guy who likes to stroke himself, you are still a numbnut.

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Re: 2019 NHL ENTRY DRAFT - Vancouver

Post by Strangelove » Tue Jun 11, 2019 12:54 pm

Reefer2 wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 10:19 pm
BingoTough wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 9:32 pm
Meds wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 1:17 pm
Yeah that was kinda my point.

That our bottom 4 forwards are sucking up WAY too much cap for their value (Beagle excepted) and we can't actually address legit roster needs without moving them out.
It's okay, cap space doesn't matter during a rebuild :D

:steps back:
I know, I have always loved that argument. Some people just don’t get it.
"Some people just don’t get it" - Reefer2 :lol: :lol: :lol:

I fucking love irony! :thumbs:

Cap space does not matter during a rebuild on a relatively rich team like the Canucks.

A rebuilding team must pay a surcharge for UFAs

... because vets would generally prefer to play for a playoff team.

But it's okay for a rebuilding team to splurge on dat dere because they need mentors for the kids

... remember the kids are on the much cheaper ELCs/bridge contracts.

Also in a rebuild, cap-space can be wasted in trades in which the team takes back bad contracts

... in return for the "sweeteners"... helpful for a rebuild... that come attached.

Cap space matters greatly on contenders however.

Contenders want to squeeze as many quality players as possible onto their rosters

... to push them over the top.

And that means counting every penny, meaning: Cap space matters!

Contenders would be ill-advised to take back bad contracts with sweeteners attached.

Contenders can ask a UFA to take a little less in exchange for a shot at the Cup.

Canucks were a team like that when Sedins were in their prime

... and hopefully will be again when Petey/Boeser/Hughes/etc are in their prime.

Lately we have observed teams like Pens/Caps works hard at managing their cap.

On the other hand, relatively speaking, rebuilding teams don't need to be so concerned.

Rebuilding teams are more concerned with drafting and developing...
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Re: 2019 NHL ENTRY DRAFT - Vancouver

Post by Reefer2 » Tue Jun 11, 2019 12:56 pm

sure - what ever you say.

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Re: 2019 NHL ENTRY DRAFT - Vancouver

Post by Strangelove » Tue Jun 11, 2019 1:06 pm

Meds wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 1:17 pm
our bottom 4 forwards are sucking up WAY too much cap for their value (Beagle excepted) and we can't actually address legit roster needs without moving them out.
Whatever contracts you're talking about, they are not presently hampering the team.

If you're including Sutter in that list, you shouldn't.

Sutter is always in the top 4 in icetime on this team (so not "bottom 4").

Eriksson was always close to that until last year when he slipped to 3rd line icetime.

But yes, Loui will need to go by 2021, and if he goes this summer that's fine too.
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Re: 2019 NHL ENTRY DRAFT - Vancouver

Post by Strangelove » Tue Jun 11, 2019 1:09 pm

Reefer2 wrote:
Tue Jun 11, 2019 12:56 pm
sure - what ever you say.
Reefer2, a masterdebater.
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Re: 2019 NHL ENTRY DRAFT - Vancouver

Post by Blob Mckenzie » Tue Jun 11, 2019 2:38 pm

SKYO wrote:
Tue Jun 11, 2019 11:24 am
We will keep Sutter unless we can get a upgrade, he plays an actually not so easy to get #3C, (when he's healthy) he plays a reliable speedy checking game who can chip in 15ish goals, faceoff wiz, team plays better overall when both Sutter and Beagle are playing 100% behind #40/#53.

Our center depth is pretty lame as it is.

Pettersson
Horvat
Sutter
Beagle

Gaudette can play center, but is pretty weak yet, not so good on faceoffs, inexperienced.
*I suppose you can slot in spooner and schaller, but they seem to be not in the plans.

Get a couple of those guys injured and you got another losing season.
Gaudette is already as effective as Sutter. Losing a Sutter or a Beagle isn’t going to tip the balance in a season.
“SUTTER IS AS GOOD AS COUTURIER”

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Re: 2019 NHL ENTRY DRAFT - Vancouver

Post by SKYO » Tue Jun 11, 2019 2:53 pm

Blob Mckenzie wrote:
Tue Jun 11, 2019 2:38 pm
Gaudette is already as effective as Sutter. Losing a Sutter or a Beagle isn’t going to tip the balance in a season.
No they are not gonna bring us to the promised land to plan the parade on Georgia street, but they'll help keep us in the game to ultimately help reach the playoffs, center depth is pretty vital.
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Re: 2019 NHL ENTRY DRAFT - Vancouver

Post by Blob Mckenzie » Tue Jun 11, 2019 2:59 pm

SKYO wrote:
Tue Jun 11, 2019 2:53 pm
Blob Mckenzie wrote:
Tue Jun 11, 2019 2:38 pm
Gaudette is already as effective as Sutter. Losing a Sutter or a Beagle isn’t going to tip the balance in a season.
No they are not gonna bring us to the promised land to plan the parade on Georgia street, but they'll help keep us in the game to ultimately help reach the playoffs, center depth is pretty vital.
Yes but Sutter and Beagle are bottom end bottom line players. Hand the third line reins to Gaudette and rip the fucking bandaid off. Trade Sutter if you can hoodwink a team into giving you anything for him. I just want the salary gone. Meds is correct. This team needs to start turfing the bloated bottom end guys.
“SUTTER IS AS GOOD AS COUTURIER”

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Re: 2019 NHL ENTRY DRAFT - Vancouver

Post by Richardstroker69 » Tue Jun 11, 2019 3:02 pm

Meds wrote:
Tue Jun 11, 2019 11:05 am
Richardstroker69 wrote:
Tue Jun 11, 2019 8:45 am
How many take on bad contracts deals happen every year? You numbnuts talk like this is a regular occurrence, it’s not (maybe one or two per year). Than when the rumours of us doing just that (Lucic, zaitsev) people have hissy fits. Cap space does not matter near as much during a rebuild and you still have to ice a team that’s competitive otherwise you get the Buffalo edmonton loser mentality. Guys like beagle, Sutter, don’t move the needle much but they at least compete hard and help the young guys get acclimatized to the nhl.
That statement contradicts itself.

I would agree with the first part, that cap space doesn't matter during a rebuild, but only insofar as it applies to the first phase of a rebuild. The first phase is where you shed bloat and aging assets that will not be part of the new roster when it's time to win, but will be of benefit to a team that is in win now mode. So you can take on bad contracts and say to hell with cap space because you are charging more to take on the deadweight so you can acquire the chips you need for the future.

There is also a time to be dealing out players who other teams will take a chance on in terms of health or need of a change of scenery.

The Canucks are not in phase one anymore, and they should be looking to emerge from middle phase soon. The rebuild has gone long enough now that cap space is starting to matter. Horvat is now 24, if we continue along the trajectory we are on he will be closing in on 30 before we are even close to being a team that people might peg as having a chance to contend for even the conference finals. We've had some vets who can teach work ethic, now it's time for a few of the guys, like Bo, to take on that role and start surrounding the young, emerging, core with players who help them win, while providing cap space that will permit contract extensions as well as strong new additions.

Tanev fits the mold of quality vet who could help a "win now" team and also return a worthwhile future asset for the Canucks.

Baertschi is a guy who another GM choose to ignore his previous health issues and risk a pick and/or prospect on in order to fill a 2nd/3rd line role where the hope is that some secondary scoring might come from further down the lineup than otherwise expected.

Eriksson, Sutter, and Spooner, are the players currently on the roster who are taking up far more cap value than what they actually bring to the team.

When a team like Vancouver misses out on the playoffs by as much as they did this past season, and the fall from challenging can be attributed to an incredible rash of injuries to key players so late in the season, it means the time has come to add talent that helps you win. If you are unable to do that because of current underachieving players have contracts sucking up cap space and are difficult to move, then you have reached the point where cap space matters to the rebuild.

We are there this summer.

I'm not saying that Benning won't be able to move some of these guys, but it might cost more to do it than some of us are comfortable with.

I'm also not faulting Benning for signing Eriksson for $6M. He was a 30 goal scorer and should not have been such a disappointment here. Shit happens.

I do think signing Gagner was an unnecessary risk simply because he went more than 2 years on a player that did not warrant that kind of commitment for what he would bring to the table. The resulting trade for Spooner was a lateral move that was risk free simply because both guys were playing like crap.

Sutter was a mediocre (at best) trade, and a poor extension signing. Considering that it was 3 years ago Sutter was not worth 5 years at that price tag. Right now a 3rd line, defensive, face-off winning, pivot who had only scored 40 points once, and with 2 exceptions was a 15 goal, 30 point, scorer, might be worth $4M. That player was not worth that kind of cash and commitment 3 years ago.

This draft, and off-season, Benning needs to do well.
Nothing in here that I outright disagree with, my competitive comment refers to in game not overall record. Losing by 1 or 2 is a lot better than by 3 or 4. Gagner was signed as insurance for when the sedins retired and petey not being ready. Not many people figured petey would step in like he did. This summer, this year and next summer are very important. Unloading Eriksson would be a big step. I think Sutter is more important to the team than you think (if he can return to form). Him playing on the wing will give the team added depth.

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Re: 2019 NHL ENTRY DRAFT - Vancouver

Post by Strangelove » Tue Jun 11, 2019 3:07 pm

Blob Mckenzie wrote:
Tue Jun 11, 2019 2:59 pm
SKYO wrote:
Tue Jun 11, 2019 2:53 pm
Blob Mckenzie wrote:
Tue Jun 11, 2019 2:38 pm
Gaudette is already as effective as Sutter. Losing a Sutter or a Beagle isn’t going to tip the balance in a season.
No they are not gonna bring us to the promised land to plan the parade on Georgia street, but they'll help keep us in the game to ultimately help reach the playoffs, center depth is pretty vital.
Yes but Sutter and Beagle are bottom end bottom line players. Hand the third line reins to Gaudette and rip the fucking bandaid off. Trade Sutter if you can hoodwink a team into giving you anything for him. I just want the salary gone. Meds is correct. This team needs to start turfing the bloated bottom end guys.
Sutter has averaged close to 18 minutes per game over the last 4 years.

"bottom end bottom line player" :lol: :lol: :lol:
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